Simpleton's Guide to Wiring DCC Point Motors Required

[latestarter]

Now that my DCC layout is 95% ready, I have decided that I will 'power' some of the 18 points on the layout, maybe starting with 4 that I use most, and in such a way that allows me to stay at the controller end of the baseboard - so manual changing is not an option.
 

My local model shop guy suggested Hornby solenoid point motors, and a DCC accessories controller to be used with my Hornby Select DCC controller. That's as far as I've got, other than, if possible, I'd like to avoid buying a new main controller.

 

Can someone suggest if this is feasible and point me towards how it is all wired up - as simply as possible. :)

 

Thanks, Stephen

[BoD]

You don’t necessarily have to use DCC to control your points just because you have a DCC controller.  Solenoid motors with a mimic panel at the controller end of your baseboard with switches, push buttons or  stud and probe via a capacitor discharge unit will work just as well.  

[latestarter]

 

 

1 hour ago, BoD said:

You don’t necessarily have to use DCC to control your points just because you have a DCC controller.  Solenoid motors with a mimic panel at the controller end of your baseboard with switches, push buttons or  stud and probe via a capacitor discharge unit will work just as well.  

Thank God you put it in language a beginner like me can understand! Had you used any technical jargon, I would have been lost! 🤣

[RobinofLoxley]

8 minutes ago, latestarter said:

 

 

Thank God you put it in language a beginner like me can understand! Had you used any technical jargon, I would have been lost! 🤣

Lol. In translation, first sentence, true. It depends on what kind of point motor, solenoid motors for example need a pulse to switch them, which is usually provided by a CDU -capacitor discharge unit - which is powered directly from an unregulated supply. So on DC, most controller have 12v DC regulated, for locos, and 12vDC and/or 16vAC unregulated, which is auxiliary supply for whatever accessory can use it. Point, signals, lights.  Solenoids only require a short burst of power, and this is delivered using a spring loaded switch; technically a switch with central position off, up or down momentarily on (through the spring return). So an operator just flicks them to one position or the other and that gives enough contact to allow the capacitor in the CDU to 'fire' the solenoid. One switch per PM, but only one CDU total. Most hobby shops have these. 

 

Other types of point motor may require a different method of activation or be comfortable with the CDU method. But almost all can be worked without connection to the DCC command station.  Basically Power supply >>>switch>>>PM

 

I cant advise about the Select but I would expect you can run an accessory decoder (instead of a CDU) from the Select, with the choice of accessory decoder being determined by what you choose for point motors. You can see this for example on DCC Concepts website, where they offer different accessory decoders for different styles of point motors. 

[latestarter]

16 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I cant advise about the Select but I would expect you can run an accessory decoder (instead of a CDU) from the Select, with the choice of accessory decoder being determined by what you choose for point motors. You can see this for example on DCC Concepts website, where they offer different accessory decoders for different styles of point motors. 

 

I have no doubt that it can be useful to learn the ins-and-outs of how stuff works and lots of abbreviations and jargon to go with it. After all, I spent 30 years in a profession where people would die if 'Haloperidol I.M. Stat' was confused for 'Haloperidol I.V. TDS' (for example). But, at this stage of my semi-retired life, I really just need to use 'free floating attention' (more jargon) to bypass the technical minutiae and get the job sorted.

What I'd like to do is work the points via the controller (even if I need to buy the Elite) from the controller position. I considered manual points but this failed for two reasons: 1) I ordered some from a guy in the US and they never arrived and 2) By the time I walk around the layout and change the points, it's often too late! 

Edited July 24, 2022 by latestarter

[RobinofLoxley]

I get the sentiments. So the switches need to be placed near the controller/command station. You have to cable from the point motors to the switches and from the switches to the power source. If you use accessory decoders that can be addressed by the command station those switches will be virtual.

[Michael Hodgson]

Lets start with what you want before working out how to do it.

 

You have a choice.  You can use DCC to work points, or you can use conventional electrics. 

With conventional wiring a CDU isn't actually required but they do tend to help reliability, and they are only appropriate for point motors that are solenoid types (eg not for Tortoise and similar slow-motion types)

 

You need to buy accessory decoders if you are using DCC, but switches/CDUs etc work out cheaper.  From an operator's point of view, using switches on a control panel is more intuitive and can be easier than trying to do everything on the same DCC controller which you also to drive the trains ... with many DCC systems you need to remember which point numbers and function keys to use, and entering the command to change a point can take longer than just flicking a switch. 

 

On the other hand if you are not always in one place when operating, a fixed control panel can prove inconvenient when you are the other end of the layout using a secondary controller or perhaps a handheld "walkabout" type controller to drive trains.

 

DCC is just about the only sensible way to go if you want to use a computer program to drive your trains - but of course many people don't want to do that.

[latestarter]

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I get the sentiments. So the switches need to be placed near the controller/command station. You have to cable from the point motors to the switches and from the switches to the power source. If you use accessory decoders that can be addressed by the command station those switches will be virtual.

 

Thanks again Robin, that's very practical advice to get me started. :)

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Operating 18 points at remote locations from your fixed operating position (the Select and Elite both being console based systems) will require lots of wires to and from the point motors.

Solenoids require a separate CDU and power supply and all that wiring back to a control position, etc, etc, etc.

 

Consider simplifying everything by using a separate DCC point control set up.

 

For example.... (Note: instead of the ready made switch panel featured, a mimic type control panel, a bank of switches or mini point levers can be used instead.

 

 

 

 

Alternative solutions, including using solenoids.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[latestarter]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Lets start with what you want before working out how to do it.

 

You have a choice.  You can use DCC to work points, or you can use conventional electrics. 

With conventional wiring a CDU isn't actually required but they do tend to help reliability, and they are only appropriate for point motors that are solenoid types (eg not for Tortoise and similar slow-motion types)

 

You need to buy accessory decoders if you are using DCC, but switches/CDUs etc work out cheaper.  From an operator's point of view, using switches on a control panel is more intuitive and can be easier than trying to do everything on the same DCC controller which you also to drive the trains ... with many DCC systems you need to remember which point numbers and function keys to use, and entering the command to change a point can take longer than just flicking a switch. 

 

On the other hand if you are not always in one place when operating, a fixed control panel can prove inconvenient when you are the other end of the layout using a secondary controller or perhaps a handheld "walkabout" type controller to drive trains.

 

DCC is just about the only sensible way to go if you want to use a computer program to drive your trains - but of course many people don't want to do that.

 

(Copied from my post above) What I'd like to do is work the points via the controller (even if I need to buy the Elite) from the controller position. I think I'd like to go the way of using an accessory decoder, as I'm not so practical and it seems (maybe only seems) like less of an installation hassle.

I don't want to use a computer program to drive the trains, mainly because my laptop died and my PC (with a 32" monitor) is not in the train room. So, I'm now thinking that controlling the points via an accessory decoder is the way to go. I just don't yet know how to get there.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

.......From an operator's point of view, using switches on a control panel is more intuitive and can be easier than trying to do everything on the same DCC controller which you also to drive the trains ... with many DCC systems you need to remember which point numbers and function keys to use, and entering the command to change a point can take longer than just flicking a switch......

 

 

Right!

Let's debunk this one.

 

It is true that using switches (or buttons) on a control panel is more intuitive, than trying to input individual addresses into a DCC control handset, or console.

However, you can use the same control panel and switches (or buttons)  to operate those points via DCC.

 

DCC control of points and route setting, is not restricted to individual input of DCC accessory addresses.

 

.

 

[latestarter]

14 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Operating 18 points at remote locations from your fixed operating position (the Select and Elite both being console based systems) will require lots of wires to and from the point motors.

Solenoids require a separate CDU and power supply and all that wiring back to a control position, etc, etc, etc.

 

Consider simplifying everything by using a separate DCC point control set up.

 

For example.... (Note: instead of the ready made switch panel featured, a mimic type control panel, a bank of switches or mini point levers can be used instead.

 

 

 

 

Alternative solutions, including using solenoids.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

Thanks for the videos, I've had a look and I'm definitely tempted by the 'sniffer' set up and the fancy control box. Although you (I assume that's you in the video) explained the set-up to the complete stranger asking you totally random questions, very well; I'll still need another 10 views and bit of additional research before it makes any real sense to me. :)

Edited July 24, 2022 by latestarter

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 minutes ago, latestarter said:

 

Thanks for the videos, I've had a look and I'm definitely tempted by the 'sniffer' set up and the fancy control box. Although you (I assume that's you in the video) explained the set-up to the complete stranger asking you totally random questions, very well; I'll still need another 10 views and bit of additional research before it makes any real sense to me. :)

 

Sorry, that's not me in the videos.

DCC Concepts have a few other videos showing different variations on how to use this simple tech.

 

 

.

[ITG]

Whilst not disagreeing at all with any of the prior advice, I would suggest that another consideration is how you identify/remember which point is which. A relatively straightforward DCC arrangement would be similar to that used to drive locos, in that you select which point (by number) and instruct it to change by pressing a button (although I’m completely unfamiliar with Hornby controllers). The challenge with this is remembering which point is number 4 and which is 18. That very reason is  why I switched to a track-diagram based panel, using DCC Concepts Alpha button system, where a combined LED and push-button on the track diagram provides total clarity as to which point you need to activate. And which way it is set.

But that’s potentially a more complex solution than it sounds like you are seeking. So bottom line of what I’m saying is, whilst you may remember which of just 4 points are which, when you get to maybe wiring up all 18, it becomes more of a memory test if relying only on a numbered system. Of course, you could just have a paper track diagram stuck to the wall, with numbered points as a reminder and still use a simple numbering system via your DCC system.

In summary, it’s not just how the system works, but also how you as a human being interface with it.

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, latestarter said:

 

Thanks for the videos, I've had a look and I'm definitely tempted by the 'sniffer' set up and the fancy control box. Although you (I assume that's you in the video) explained the set-up to the complete stranger asking you totally random questions, very well; I'll still need another 10 views and bit of additional research before it makes any real sense to me. :)

 

You might also need to have deep pockets 😉

 

And you still need to remember which turnout is 1, which is 2, which is 3,...

[latestarter]

2 hours ago, ITG said:

So bottom line of what I’m saying is, whilst you may remember which of just 4 points are which, when you get to maybe wiring up all 18, it becomes more of a memory test if relying only on a numbered system. Of course, you could just have a paper track diagram stuck to the wall, with numbered points as a reminder and still use a simple numbering system via your DCC system. In summary, it’s not just how the system works, but also how you as a human being interface with it.

Fair points, thank you @ITG. I was thinking that with 4 only, it may not be too difficult. My (very rudimentary, and possibly erroneous) understanding, so far, is that the Hornby controller (or maybe the accessories controller) starts the points addresses at 61 - I think!!

[KingEdwardII]

15 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

you still need to remember which turnout is 1, which is 2, which is 3,..

Yes. A control panel with a diagram of the layout is the "natural" way to do this, so that you simply select the turnout from its place on the layout. Several folks here have advocated using a physical panel with switches or studs. I do it using a computer and a touch screen - Raspberry Pi, so not expensive. It's the touch screen that's expensive.

 

To go this route, you do need DCC to drive the point motors - and a computer connection to your controller. In my case I use MTB MP1 slow action point motors and Digikeijs DR4018 accessory decoders.

 

This ain't cheap, but I get good control. I can control the turnouts via the large touchscreen - but I can also control them via my Android smartphone, since the Pi provides an interface for remote connections over WiFi.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[RAF96]

@ Stephen

If you only have four points you only need one acc decoder.

As you say the Select uses points addresses starting at 61 so you need to remember your four points are addresses 61, 62, 63 and 64.

You obviously need point motors and these can be solenoid, slo-mo or servo.  The acc decoder you buy needs to be specific to operate the type of point motor you choose.

Simple as that Select -> Acc Decoder -> Point Motor. All functionality is from the Select in that you input the address and use the direction arrow buttons to throw each point left or right.

The points bus is connected to the same terminals on the Select as the track bus , using a choc block if required to join the bus wires.

Edited July 26, 2022 by RAF96
Typo

[melmerby]

On 25/07/2022 at 06:51, KingEdwardII said:

Yes. A control panel with a diagram of the layout is the "natural" way to do this, so that you simply select the turnout from its place on the layout. Several folks here have advocated using a physical panel with switches or studs. I do it using a computer and a touch screen - Raspberry Pi, so not expensive. It's the touch screen that's expensive.

 

To go this route, you do need DCC to drive the point motors - and a computer connection to your controller. In my case I use MTB MP1 slow action point motors and Digikeijs DR4018 accessory decoders.

 

This ain't cheap, but I get good control. I can control the turnouts via the large touchscreen - but I can also control them via my Android smartphone, since the Pi provides an interface for remote connections over WiFi.

 

Yours,  Mike.

Something like JMRI panel Pro on a Pi with a standard display and use a mouse to operate the points on the diagram?

Standard displays are quite cheap these days.

 

Edit

You can get 22" HD displays for about £90 or less

Edited July 26, 2022 by melmerby

[KingEdwardII]

15 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Pi with a standard display and use a mouse

It was the mouse that I really didn't want in the railway room - at least when operating the layout. That's why I went for the fancy large touchscreen. They are about double the price of the same size standard screen.

Using a Mark 1 finger to do all the work is just simple and easy ;-)

 

Yours, Mike.

[melmerby]

39 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

It was the mouse that I really didn't want in the railway room - at least when operating the layout. That's why I went for the fancy large touchscreen. They are about double the price of the same size standard screen.

Using a Mark 1 finger to do all the work is just simple and easy ;-)

 

Yours, Mike.

Unfortunately I've got too many turnouts close together and even with a 40" display my pre-nationalisation finger would cover more than one.☹️

A 65" "Whiteboard" monitor might do - £1561🤨

[KingEdwardII]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I've got too many turnouts close together

The on screen diagram does not have to be a faithful map of the layout, but can be done diagrammatically to give enough separation. The same principle is typically used for traditional style control panel, where there needs to be enough space for the switches or studs.

 

My touchscreen is a 22" - I would not want one much larger or it would start to get in the way.

 

Yours, Mike.

[MyRule1]

@latestarter 

On 23/07/2022 at 14:32, latestarter said:

My local model shop guy suggested Hornby solenoid point motors, and a DCC accessories controller to be used with my Hornby Select DCC controller. That's as far as I've got, other than, if possible, I'd like to avoid buying a new main controller.

 

This suggests that you have a layout without any point motors currently installed. So lets go back to basics with these questions:

 

do you mind if your point motors are visible?

what space is there close to the points to fit a motor?

Is your baseboard constructed in such a way that you could fit under board motors?

 

The answers to these will limit which point motors you can use. By the way in every case there are better point motors than the Hornby offering.

 

Unless you go for a motor with DCC built in (such are the Cobalt IP Digital) all point motors need three wires: Left, Right and Common. The Colbalt only needs the two DCC wires, but I am note sure how this would work with the Hornby Select.

 

The Hornby accessories controller have four ports, each of which has a connector for the three wires. You will need  a location for this.

 

The way I am currently wiring my layout, having answered the questions above, is I am installing the point motors and running the three wires from each back to the location where my decoder will be. I will then test the motors on uncontrolled DC. Once I am happy they are working I will connect the wires to the DCC decoder, which has a built in Capacitor Discharge system. 

 

Although I am using a Hornby e-link and Railmaster I am note using the Hornby  R8247 Digital Accessory and Point Decoder as I have more thank four points and there are more cost effective accessory decoders.

 

Lastly have you considered the Hornby R7293 HM6010 App Based Accessory Control?  Not DCC but may meet would requirements, just needs a fairly up to date Android Smart Phone. You still have the three wires.

 

 

[melmerby]

54 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

@latestarter 

 

Unless you go for a motor with DCC built in (such are the Cobalt IP Digital) all point motors need three wires: Left, Right and Common. The Colbalt only needs the two DCC wires, but I am note sure how this would work with the Hornby Select.

 

Factually incorrect.

Stall motors (e.g. Tortoise and basic Cobalt) have just two connections, you reverse the connection to change the point.

You can use DC and a double pole changeover switch to operate them, or you can use a suitable DCC decoder. (which the IP Digital has built in)

 

The IP Digital would just connect across the DCC from the Hornby controller and when you send a suitable turnout command it would change.

Edited July 26, 2022 by melmerby

[KingEdwardII]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

Stall motors (e.g. Tortoise and basic Cobalt)

I use MTB MP1 motors, which are slow action stall motors, but these use 3 wire connections. These are DC operated, to switch them with DCC as I do requires using an accessory decoder with a 3 wire output - I use Digikeijs DR4018.

 

I think the message is that you have to know which point motors you intend to use - there is no universal wiring arrangement.

 

Yours, Mike.