Glenfinnan Station in O Gauge

[thegreenhowards]

19 hours ago, 4firstimes said:

Through this forum an observation has been made concerning how far forward a train has stopped in front of a home signal at Glenfinnan. The natural reason for this would be to clear the track circuiting and if another train was present on platform 2 this could depart following the exchange of token , either physically with the signaller prior to RETB or electronically via RETB . The infrastructure at Glenfinnan should be considered. The platform lengths at Glenfinnan is recorded as 75meters which up equates to approximately 250 feet. The actual loop is 139 meters or 455feet. When steam service operates on the Mallaig Extension the consist is made up of a locomotive plus tender and up to seven mark one coaches. The knowledgeable modellers can work out the total train length , hence the need to stand forward of the Home signal to accommodate the loop. 
When the West Highland Line was commissioned to accept RETB in March 1988.

ScotRail issued a special notice for the Permanent Way and Signalling Arrangements for the Working of the West Highland Line including changes to sectional appendix alterations, Sectional Appendix section 1 table A pages 100 provides interesting information on loop clearance lengths (CL) and additional information on the south section of the West Highland Line on how the route was operated. 
A copy to the link is provided below.

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/pullfree.asp?FilePath=ArchiveSignals\Downloads\brscot&FileName=1988-westhighland.pdf

 

it must be remembered in the days of steam the West Highland perpetuated the North  British Railway practice of coupling the pilot locomotive inside the lead locomotive which opens up an interesting operational aspect when the pilot locomotive was removed from the train at Glenfinnan 

Hi Stuart,

 

That fits with my understanding. I think two six coach trains can pass at Glenfinnan, but anything longer won’t fit in the loop. I also understood that the run round at Mallaig would only take six, but I can’t remember where I read that. The Jacobite now runs to seven coaches so presumably the run round has been lengthened.

 

Would pilot engines have come off at Glenfinnan?  I’d have thought that they would work through from Mallaig to Fort William. It would be an interesting thing to include on the layout sequence if it did happen.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

14 hours ago, 03060 said:

Hello Andy,

 

I'm sure that you've already come to this conclusion but just in case there is any doubt remaining about the colour of the headboard in 1985 ...

 

.... photo by ee20213's Dad, from his SLOA Tour Flickr album, june 2nd 1985, which is well worth a look through.

 

 

Thanks Ian,

 

It’s clear that ‘blue is the colour’! But I haven’t seen that circular design before. I was intending to go for the more conventional design in John’s post earlier.

 

Andy

[03060]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Hi Stuart,

 

That fits with my understanding. I think two six coach trains can pass at Glenfinnan, but anything longer won’t fit in the loop. I also understood that the run round at Mallaig would only take six, but I can’t remember where I read that. The Jacobite now runs to seven coaches so presumably the run round has been lengthened.

 

Would pilot engines have come off at Glenfinnan?  I’d have thought that they would work through from Mallaig to Fort William. It would be an interesting thing to include on the layout sequence if it did happen.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Hello Andy,

 

Double headed 9 coach specials were not unknown on the Mallaig Line as shown in this May 31st 1985 shot (again from ee20213's Flickr album) so somebody somewhere had a plan for running around these lengthy trains (and also for passing them en-route.) Incidentally the coach on the left must be one of the original blue/greys used in 1984 for the steam services (note the terrier on the side) even though the first set of green/cream coaches were now being used ... I always thought that it was these blue/greys that were repainted but obviously not (I've never been able to find out the numbers of the original coaches.)

 

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited February 25 by 03060

[thegreenhowards]

I presume that with longer trains the front loco came off shortly before arrival at Mallaig. And was then used for shunt releasing the other loco. That’s just a guess based on what happens elsewhere, so if anyone knows for sure I’d be interested.

 

Andy

[mallaig1983]

I always believed that the loop at Mallaig was 6 coaches long too and in 2011 when I rode The Jacobite it was load 7 and I was expecting some shunting on arrival. 
As for running round a double headed 9 coach train I believe, and please don’t ask me to provide evidence as I read it somewhere back in the midst of time, on arrival the train would back up and detach 6 coaches. The loco/s would then run round the 3 in the loop and shunt them into the siding. Not platform 2, the siding by the loco shed. Then they would retrieve the other six, run round and shunt back. The 3 in the siding could then be added to the front of the train. 
 

Yes I have definitely got a lot out of the conversation regarding paint for the buildings and glad the subject was raised. I was about to ask the same question on my own thread so I’m glad that Stuart follows yours. As you can see I’m fairly close to needing that answer 😀

 

 

So thank you for raising it and again to Stuart for his insight.

 

Andy

[4firstimes]

The maximum number of coaches which Mallaig Platform could handle was six mark one coaches . On the internet there was a pod cast of showing how a train with nine coaches , was split ran around and re joined .  I believe a ‘Pathfinder’ rail tour in 2016 the consist was 10 or 11 coaches , being top and tailed. The train was split and shunted in portions using the siding to facilitate the locomotive at the headshunt North End to run round..

An example is as follows , this is not the one I was referencing too; ‘Chasing the Royal Scotsman to Mallaig 20 April 2019’ If I can find the links again I edit this posting

[thegreenhowards]

2 hours ago, 4firstimes said:

The maximum number of coaches which Mallaig Platform could handle was six mark one coaches . On the internet there was a pod cast of showing how a train with nine coaches , was split ran around and re joined .  I believe a ‘Pathfinder’ rail tour in 2016 the consist was 10 or 11 coaches , being top and tailed. The train was split and shunted in portions using the siding to facilitate the locomotive at the headshunt North End to run round..

An example is as follows , this is not the one I was referencing too; ‘Chasing the Royal Scotsman to Mallaig 20 April 2019’ If I can find the links again I edit this posting

I was on the Pathfinder tour in April 2016 with 37610 and 409. Unfortunately I didn’t do the stretch outward from Fort William to Mallaig as I decided that wasn’t a good use of a day. Instead I got the morning sprinter to Glenfinnan and climbed the two Munros behind the Glenfinnan viaduct. I then caught the evening sprinter to Arisaig where the tour and my friends were waiting to run back to Mallaig, and then Mallaig to Fort William. The tour had to vacate the platform at Mallaig for a service train. By that stage the tour was in top and tail formation. 37619 led back into Mallaig and then 409 took the whole formation back to Fort William.

 

Here’s a photo of the train at Arisaig waiting to go back to Mallaig.

 

 

I’ll see if my friends have any pictures of the run round at Mallaig.

 

Andy

Edited February 25 by thegreenhowards

[BoD]

I know it’s how things have to be and I’m just being picky, but that nose just doesn’t look right at all.

Now that they are going I will probably wish I could see even them before too long.

[4firstimes]

Whilst looking for the web cast of shunting at Mallaig, I came across this Album set of  over 72 pages of Photographs of the West Highland line Including The Mallaig Extension. Most of the images appear to be post 1980, there are several of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. This is the first time I have seen a vast collection grouped together. The is an interesting collection of Glenfinnan, whilst I can not work out how the collection is arranged, some are date stamped, most just have details of the location. I have a personal interest in both Arisaig and Lochailort, the angle and location of picture provides an atmospheric representation of how the West Highland line has changed over the years. The link is provided below, I am not sure if this source of information has been discussed in this forum previously.

Link:
https://www.flickr.com/groups/1667170@N22/pool/page1

[young37215]

I also did the 2016 Pathfinder tour which was load 11 top and tailed between Fort William and Mallaig. My picture taking was limited and I dont recall any shunt at Mallaig because my wife and I spent most of the time walking around Mallaig trying to walk off the large quantities of food that had been served on the train over the weekend. I cannot find any pictures of the return leg, my best guess is the train returned in top and tail mode.

 

@Mallaig1983 description of how long trains were run around at Mallaig is consistent with what I have seen, somewhere there is a video clip showing this in action but I am dammed if I can find it at this early hour of the morning.  

 

 

 

  

 

[03060]

Just to bring this slight thread deviation back onto a Glenfinnan relevance I thought it might be useful to show the two ends of the stationary double headed 9 coach 1985 at rest at Glenfinnan station from ee20213's Flickr album. I hope that you don't mind Andy.

 

 

 

 

I've also seen a collection of photos from around 1990 showing the run around of a 9 coach Landcruiser train which concurs with the previous description of the Mallaig manoeuvre described earlier. Sorry for this deviation Andy.

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

Edited February 26 by 03060
Extra photos added.

[young37215]

3 hours ago, young37215 said:

@Mallaig1983 description of how long trains were run around at Mallaig is consistent with what I have seen, somewhere there is a video clip showing this in action but I am dammed if I can find it at this early hour of the morning.  

 

This is bugging me, I am pretty sure the loco is 37081 and it might just be the shunt necessary to release an observation salon. If I could find the dam video I could answer the question! I have been through my Youtube history for the last 4 years and cannot find what I am looking for, it must be on a DVD somewhere. One of the videos I spotted originally found by @03060 is linked below showing a chunk of Glenfinnan footage in addition to the Mallaig arrival.

 

 

[mallaig1983]

1 hour ago, young37215 said:

 

This is bugging me, I am pretty sure the loco is 37081 and it might just be the shunt necessary to release an observation salon. If I could find the dam video I could answer the question! I have been through my Youtube history for the last 4 years and cannot find what I am looking for, it must be on a DVD somewhere. One of the videos I spotted originally found by @03060 is linked below showing a chunk of Glenfinnan footage in addition to the Mallaig arrival.

 

 

Rob you are thinking of the shunt to rearrange the obs saloon at Mallaig if it’s 39081 you’re looking for. It’s on this dvd. 
 

Andy

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

16 hours ago, young37215 said:

I also did the 2016 Pathfinder tour which was load 11 top and tailed between Fort William and Mallaig. My picture taking was limited and I dont recall any shunt at Mallaig because my wife and I spent most of the time walking around Mallaig trying to walk off the large quantities of food that had been served on the train over the weekend. I cannot find any pictures of the return leg, my best guess is the train returned in top and tail mode.

 

@Mallaig1983 description of how long trains were run around at Mallaig is consistent with what I have seen, somewhere there is a video clip showing this in action but I am dammed if I can find it at this early hour of the morning.  

 

 

You were obviously in the posh seats! I was in the bashers coach on the end. I’ve now had a photo through from my friend with confirmation that it was top and tail in both directions. The train was well off the platform at Mallaig.

 

It couldn’t wait in the station as a sprinter was due and our train blocked the whole station, so it went out to Arisaig where the sprinter passed westbound and returned eastbound. The stock then went back into Mallaig for the return journey. So no elaborate shunting at Mallaig on this train.

 

Andy

 

Edited February 26 by thegreenhowards

[thegreenhowards]

13 hours ago, 03060 said:

Just to bring this slight thread deviation back onto a Glenfinnan relevance I thought it might be useful to show the two ends of the stationary double headed 9 coach 1985 at rest at Glenfinnan station from ee20213's Flickr album. I hope that you don't mind Andy.

 

 

 

 

I've also seen a collection of photos from around 1990 showing the run around of a 9 coach Landcruiser train which concurs with the previous description of the Mallaig manoeuvre described earlier. Sorry for this deviation Andy.

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

Useful shots. Thanks for sharing. I’m just tackling the vegetation and fence shown in the third shot, so very timely.

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

11 hours ago, mallaig1983 said:

Rob you are thinking of the shunt to rearrange the obs saloon at Mallaig if it’s 39081 you’re looking for. It’s on this dvd. 
 

Andy

 

 

Mmm, I might have to add that to the shopping list!

[thegreenhowards]

12 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

This is bugging me, I am pretty sure the loco is 37081 and it might just be the shunt necessary to release an observation salon. If I could find the dam video I could answer the question! I have been through my Youtube history for the last 4 years and cannot find what I am looking for, it must be on a DVD somewhere. One of the videos I spotted originally found by @03060 is linked below showing a chunk of Glenfinnan footage in addition to the Mallaig arrival.

Thanks Rob,

 

A great video which I don’t think I’ve seen before. It’s useful confirmation that the Glenfinnan platform seats were painted the darker of the two green colours. And the waiting shelter had been touched up in a particularly bilious version of the lighter green which looks distinctly yellow.

 

I also noted how yellow the gorse looked. That makes me comfortable with my rather bright wax crayon shavings to represent the gorse on my layout.

 

Andy

[young37215]

19 hours ago, mallaig1983 said:

Rob you are thinking of the shunt to rearrange the obs saloon at Mallaig if it’s 39081 you’re looking for. It’s on this dvd. 
 

Andy

 

 

 

That is the video I was thinking of although it only shows the saloon being shunted into the run round loop and not the siding. Still the concept is evidenced by this, I am also sure that I have seen video of the shunt using the siding but where and what I cannot recall.

[4firstimes]

In response to a previous posting in the forum of running around trains at Mallaig with more than 6/7 coaches.

With a bit of research I have found the extract , other pictures or webcast appear to have been removed. The date in question was 16 Jan 1983, A SLOA (Steam Locomotive Operators Association) No 14 Pullman Scenic Land Cruises Headboarded as ‘ The Winter West Highlander’. The train consisted of 11 coaches hauled by class 37s locomotives. One of the 37s Class 37/0 37027 ‘ Loch Eil’, the other 37 i haven’t identified. As the 11 coach consist was too long for run round facilities , the locomotives uncoupled with two coaches removed and shunted back to near the Former Signalbox at Mallaig to facilitate the reversal for the return working to Fort William. I understand the entire process took around 45 mins.

I have located a link below to show how part of the process was completed.

link.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lickeybanker/14666108896/in/photostream/

16 jan 1983

 

[thegreenhowards]

Changing the subject completely, I have been thinking about how the layout will operate when exhibited. In the garden it plugs into a circuit, but for exhibition use, I'll need a fiddle yard or two. I've been talking to Grainge and Hodder about their turntable baseboards. They have been very helpful and have drawn up bespoke design for a2400mm (8 foot) turntable with 7 tracks as shown below.

I would need two of these which would fit onto my layout as shown below.

 

I think this will work well. It gives a total layout size of 11.3m x 5m, but this could be a corner plot of 11.3m X 3M and 5m x 3m.

 

I'd be grateful for any thoughts on the practicality of this and any other ideas.

 

Andy

 

[03060]

I like the plan but (and I don't wish to sound negative here) the obvious concern to me would be the weight of turning up to 6 'O' gauge trains on each turntable. I once owned a Heljan Class 26 which was pretty heavy on it's own.

 

I'm quite sure that you are comfortable with the size of your 'O' gauge stock, so you will have a much better idea of the feasibility of this than me and I'd certainly go out of my way to see Glenfinnan at an exhibition so I hope that it works, Andy.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[thegreenhowards]

9 hours ago, 03060 said:

I like the plan but (and I don't wish to sound negative here) the obvious concern to me would be the weight of turning up to 6 'O' gauge trains on each turntable. I once owned a Heljan Class 26 which was pretty heavy on it's own.

 

I'm quite sure that you are comfortable with the size of your 'O' gauge stock, so you will have a much better idea of the feasibility of this than me and I'd certainly go out of my way to see Glenfinnan at an exhibition so I hope that it works, Andy.

 

Regards,

Ian.

That’s the big issue Ian and I’m nervous about it, but the guy at Grainge and Hodder thinks it will be OK. Each Heljan diesel can weigh up to 3KG so I could have 21KG hanging off the end. The plan is to use a large lazy Susan (24” diameter) in the middle. And of course, the coaches aren’t light so will balance the weight a bit. If the engineers amongst you think that’s impractical, please shout now!

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

Meanwhile I’ve been ‘weedifying’ another board.

 

[young37215]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

That’s the big issue Ian and I’m nervous about it, but the guy at Grainge and Hodder thinks it will be OK. Each Heljan diesel can weigh up to 3KG so I could have 21KG hanging off the end. The plan is to use a large lazy Susan (24” diameter) in the middle. And of course, the coaches aren’t light so will balance the weight a bit. If the engineers amongst you think that’s impractical, please shout now!

 

Andy

 

7 roads at each end appears overkill to me, you are unlikely to have 14 trains to run? I am not sure what a typical working day back in the 60's was but I doubt that it involved 14 trains. Fast forward to the 80's and it was a maximum of 5 trains per day including the steam service. Even adding in an engineering train plus a special and 8 roads, 4 at each end, would appear more than sufficent. Smaller baseboard equals less weight and, hopefully, lower cost?

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

7 does not seem unreasonable to me, particularly not for the Fort William end, where you might well want 6 or 7 different trains to choose from.

 

I have never built a layout with a turntable plate and it is a very long time since I operated a layout with one, but if your individual items of rolling stock are heavy - particularly a locomotive at one end of a train - then you probably want a reasonably heavy turning baseboard to make sure the centre of gravity remains within the turntable bearing ring.

 

If locomotives are particularly heavy, don't have all your trains facing the same way. Of course, in use, trains will naturally end up facing different ways, but it might be tempting at the start to have all the trains facing towards the scenic section.

 

I am sure Grainge and Hodder can give you better advice than I can, though.