Glenfinnan Station in O Gauge

[BoD]

Can I echo your thanks to Jeremy.  Very interesting.  
I too will have to change the way I operate when in ‘manual mode’.  Setting the layout to run automatically under computer control (just to watch trains go by) is going to take some thinking about. 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’ve never really understood why a driver has to be brought to a stand at the home before entering the station. Surely he has to be ready to stop at the starter signal and that should be sufficient?

This is standard feature of absolute block working with semaphore signals. Trains take a long time to stop and drivers need advanced warning of whether the signals ahead are clear or not. Semaphore signals (in Britain in the second half of the 20th century, at any rate) can only show two positions, so a set of rules was developed to give the driver as much advanced information as possible. These rules apply on a sleepy single track branch line as on a busy main line.

 

A group of signals is controlled by a signalbox, and the very first of these will be a distant. If the distant is clear, then the driver knows that all the stop signals controlled by the same box are also clear, and the next signal he might find against him is the distant for the next signalbox. He can therefore carry on at line speed.

 

If the distant is at caution, then the driver knows that at least one of the stop signals controlled by the same box is at danger. However, this presents a problem - which one? When he sees that the outermost home signal is clear, does he still have to drive slowly, ready to stop at any of the subsequent signals? This could see trains creeping along for half a mile or more till the driver can see that the last signal (the starter or advanced starter) is clear, when he can finally accelerate. This could lose a lot of time on a busy main line.

 

So the rules state that if any stop signal is at danger, then the driver needs to be cautioned at the preceding stop signal controlled by the same box. Suppose a box has four stop signals (an outer home, an inner home, a starter and an advanced starter, perhaps), and the signalman can't clear the advanced starter because he hasn't got line clear for the next section, then the driver will need to be cautioned at all three of the preceding signals, because for each of them the next signal is at danger. This might seem a lot of work for the signalman, and perhaps irritating for the driver, but think of the other situation. The signalman obtains line clear just as the approaching train passes the distant. He can now pull off all his signals, but doesn't have time to do so before the train passes the distant, so the driver will be slowing expecting to stop at the first home signal. When the signal comes into view, if the driver sees that it is clear, he immediately knows that all the other signals are clear and will accelerate.

 

I have very little idea what the modern rule book says, whether trains now need to be brought to a stand before entering the loop, but this didn't use to be the case for the first train - it would just be cautioned, as I described in my previous post. The driver would see the home signal at danger, whistle for it, and when the signalman thought the train had slowed sufficiently, he would clear the signal. The second train to arrive wasn't so lucky if it arrived too soon afterwards. It would be forced to stop at the home signal till the first train was clear of the points at the far end of the station.

 

There were passing loops and situations where it was important that trains were admitted in a particular order (an obvious example is where a train is too long to wholly fit inside the loop - this train has to enter second, because if it enters first, it won't clear the points, so the other train can't be admitted at all), and if the "wrong" train turned up first, it would he held at the home signal till the other train was in the loop.

 

4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I presume that this is only the case if trains are crossing? I.e. if the starter is pulled off then the home can also be pulled off and the driver can enter the station without stopping at the home. 

This is right. The signalman will get the token for the next section, set the road for the train to depart and pull off the starter, the home and the distant. The approaching train might still be miles away. For information, it is usual for a signalman to ask Is Line Clear for the next section as soon has he has received Train Entering Section from the previous box, assuming that the next section is clear.

 

4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I am using the signal box diagram below with my lever frame to control the signalling. Levers 4&12 are point locks which do nothing as yet, but I’m intending to wire them so that they electrically lock the points. I need to have a think about whether I can electrically prevent pulling off the starter while the home at the same end is off.

If you can arrange for levers 4 and 12 to lock levers 11 and 5 respectively, then you can probably arrange to lock the entire frame in a prototypical manner. If you have something in mind for how you are going to do this, then there are several people on here who can help you with which levers lock each other in which position.

 

4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I think I may need it on a crib sheet behind the lever frame.

You have probably seen that signalbox levers have plates on them with the numbers of the levers that need to be pulled before that particular lever can be pulled. You can see these in the photograph below - the plates are at the bottom of each lever. This can form the basis of you crib sheet. Here are what the plates say:

1: 2, 3

2: 4

3: 5

4: There isn't a plate, but 4 can't be pulled unless 11 is normal

5: There isn't a plate, but 5 can't be pulled unless 12 is normal

9: 5, 10

10: 5

11: There isn't a plate, but 11 can't be pulled unless 4 is normal

12: There isn't a plate, but 12 can't be pulled unless 5 is normal

13: 11

14: 12

15: 13, 14

(Edit: 1 and 15 seem to have something else written on the plate, but I can't make out what it is)

 

Note that the interlocking applies in the opposite direction while a lever is reversed. So, for example, you can't pull 1 unless 2 and 3 are reverse, but when you have reversed 1, you can't then put either 2 or 3 back to normal. You must put 1 back to normal first.

 

 

4 hours ago, 03060 said:

 

Just for clarity in understanding Jeremy's description am I correct in thinking that :-

 

In the Mallaig direction Signals 15 is the Distant, 14 the Home and 13 the Starter ....

... and in the Fort William direction Signals 1 is the Distant, 2 is the Home and 3 the Starter ?

 

Regards,

Ian.

That's right.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland
Added note about 1 and 15

[37114]

Very interesting project, I like the idea of having the board exhibitable but then incorporating into the garden layout. Nicely executed, and O gauge with class 37s's so lots to like!

[thegreenhowards]

3 hours ago, 37114 said:

Very interesting project, I like the idea of having the board exhibitable but then incorporating into the garden layout. Nicely executed, and O gauge with class 37s's so lots to like!

Thanks, it remains to be seen how the exhibition boards stand up to being carted in and out of the garden!

[thegreenhowards]

I'll be at the Beckenham and West Wickham show tomorrow manning the Gauge O Guild stand. Do pop by and say hello if you're coming.

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

Not much to post on the layout at the moment as it’s all hibernating in the garage. But I did get tempted by some Ellis Clark / Darstead vouchers last week and succumbed to a rake of their Thompson coaches. I had been putting these off as I thought they were too pricy but they are magnificent coaches and the voucher offer swung it for me! These represent the earliest period I will be modelling on Glenfinnan. I.e. early ‘50s.

 

I ordered them on Monday and they turned up on Wednesday morning just in time for the Wednesday afternoon meeting of SEGOG in Bromley, so I gave them a test run.

 

 

 

The interior detail on these is the best I’ve seen in RTR coaches - quite exquisite!

 

I will number them in the New Year.

 

Andy

 

[03060]

Hope that you don't mind me posting this little 'heads up' here Andy but it potentially fits in more with your running periods than say WHL v.4, Meanach or Mallaig.

 

Anyway, this months (Feb '24) Backtrack mag contains a rare colour photo of D6936 (green FYE) at Fort William shed in 1968 on trial, this being a full 10 to 12 years before the 37s took over the West Highland Line services. I've only ever come across 1 or maybe 2 photos before of this event and neither in colour that I can recall. It's a good clear view of the loco along with a blue and a green Class 29s.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[thegreenhowards]

10 minutes ago, 03060 said:

Hope that you don't mind me posting this little 'heads up' here Andy but it potentially fits in more with your running periods than say WHL v.4, Meanach or Mallaig.

 

Anyway, this months (Feb '24) Backtrack mag contains a rare colour photo of D6936 (green FYE) at Fort William shed in 1968 on trial, this being a full 10 to 12 years before the 37s took over the West Highland Line services. I've only ever come across 1 or maybe 2 photos before of this event and neither in colour that I can recall. It's a good clear view of the loco along with a blue and a green Class 29s.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Thanks for that Ian. A Class 29 is on my list. Steve Beattie is bringing out a 3D printed kit of one which I’m hoping to pick up fairly soon. I noticed Backtrack had a WHL feature, so it was on my list to check out - sounds like I will need to buy a copy.

 

the postman brought a new goodie today - an Ellis Clark black 5. This will become 5407 to head my green and cream Mk1s on the Jacobite. More once I’ve unboxed it.

 

Andy

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

I’ve been playing with electronics which I don’t really understand today! As long term followers of this thread will remember, I have a lever frame which I want to use to control all my points and signals in line with the original Glenfinnan signal box frame.I’ve been using this diagram.

 

 
The lever frame I have has DPDT switches attached to each lever, so I had to work out how to control all the point motors and signals using them. The nearer points (Fort William end)  I changed over to Tortoises and the signals are servos which were fine with DC power, so that worked OK. It was the far (Mallaig) end which was causing me problems. I either had to change the point motor to a tortoise and dangle 20ft of wire across the garden, or use DCC. I tried the wire method for the signals last summer but it was very messy. So DCC it had to be.

 

DCC Concepts’ ESP came to the rescue as that can take any switch input and convert it into a DCC signal. I spent a while sweating over the instructions and had two phone calls to DCC Concepts help desk who were fantastic. But I’m happy to say that it’s now working for the point. I need to buy a decoder for the Dapol signals and then I should be able to add them. And it’s all with no wires - the signal is transmitted by Bluetooth.

 

As with many DCC concepts products this is a superb bit of kit but quite pricy and with not very good instructions. Luckily their help desk makes up for the instructions!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

I’ve brought another board inside to work on the scenery. This is the area in front of the station building - the far side from the tracks. I’ve struggled to find photographs of the area. Stuart Wright ( @4firstimes of this parish)  provided some invaluable ones from, I think, the 1980s. But most stuff online is post conversion to the museum and tidying up. Google street view has been useful but that’s very recent. I’m assuming that the landform won’t have changed. It’s just that what is now manicured garden was scrub in the 1980s and the brick wall was a run down fence. This photo gives an idea of the layout I’m trying to replicate.
 

https://canmore.org.uk/collection/1507436

Stuart’s photos give more views of the area between the steps and station, but I’ve got nothing for the area down the slope (approach road) from the steps. If anyone knows of any photos, please let me know.

 

This is my progress on the landform to date. Any comments welcome.

 

The area right of the steps needs a run down fence to link it to the station building. The area left of the steps just seemed to fade into the driveway. I’ve marked where I think the driveway goes off scene with a blue pen to the left of the steps.

 

Andy

Edited February 2 by thegreenhowards

[thegreenhowards]

On 23/01/2024 at 23:07, 03060 said:

Hope that you don't mind me posting this little 'heads up' here Andy but it potentially fits in more with your running periods than say WHL v.4, Meanach or Mallaig.

 

Anyway, this months (Feb '24) Backtrack mag contains a rare colour photo of D6936 (green FYE) at Fort William shed in 1968 on trial, this being a full 10 to 12 years before the 37s took over the West Highland Line services. I've only ever come across 1 or maybe 2 photos before of this event and neither in colour that I can recall. It's a good clear view of the loco along with a blue and a green Class 29s.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Thanks for the gen Ian. I’ve managed to track down a copy of the mag, and it’s a good photo. I don’t think this trial lasted very long, so I think a green 37 might be an extravagance!  The caption is somewhat misleading describing D6936 as ‘the motive power which would replace the NBL machines’ . That somewhat omits the 1970s and might upset a few McRat fans!

 

I like the one of D6133 at Glenfinnan as well. I hope to recreate that one day.

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

I’ve been working on the area in front of the station - it’s starting to look like the pictures. Photos tomorrow when the glue and paint have dried!
 

In the meantime, I’ve also been working on the lever frame. It’s now looking more like the Glenfinnan frame. Here’s the prototype.

 

And here’s my version.

 

I’ve matched all the colours apart from levers 6 and 15. Lever 6 I’ve painted black as it controls a point into the end loading dock which I assume must have been hand operated on the prototype. And lever 15 I don’t have on my frame. As it’s for a distant which is well off scene, I’ll live with that.

 

This hangs on the edge of the layout and acts as the switches for all the points and signals.

 

Andy

[BoD]

That really looks the part.

 

Have you converted to all dcc or will the tortoise points remain electro mechanical.  I need to investigate the DCC concepts stuff. Currently I run everything through accessory decoders via a computer. Not a switch, stud and probe or push button in sight.  I do really fancy a lever frame like that though,  

[thegreenhowards]

57 minutes ago, BoD said:

That really looks the part.

 

Have you converted to all dcc or will the tortoise points remain electro mechanical.  I need to investigate the DCC concepts stuff. Currently I run everything through accessory decoders via a computer. Not a switch, stud and probe or push button in sight.  I do really fancy a lever frame like that though,  

Thanks. I think the lever frame  really adds to the operational interest of what is a fairly basic railway operationally. For garden operation on my own it sits on the inside of the layout, but at exhibitions I see it being on the outside where I can get kids (of all ages!) to pull the levers.

 

Four of the points are on the same board and remain operated by tortoises directly from the DPDT switches. As this is the board onto which the lever frame attaches, it’s quite simple to plug in the cables. The two signals at this end will also remain servo analogue operated. I’ve never been convinced by DCC for accessories, but in this case, it will save15ft of trailing cable (once I’ve converted the two Dapol signals over).

 

Andy

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’ve been working on the area in front of the station - it’s starting to look like the pictures. Photos tomorrow when the glue and paint have dried!
 

In the meantime, I’ve also been working on the lever frame. It’s now looking more like the Glenfinnan frame. Here’s the prototype.

 

And here’s my version.

 

I’ve matched all the colours apart from levers 6 and 15. Lever 6 I’ve painted black as it controls a point into the end loading dock which I assume must have been hand operated on the prototype. And lever 15 I don’t have on my frame. As it’s for a distant which is well off scene, I’ll live with that.

 

This hangs on the edge of the layout and acts as the switches for all the points and signals.

 

Andy

It's your layout, not mine, but given that 7 and 8 are spare you could combine them and fit 15 on the end.

[thegreenhowards]

9 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

It's your layout, not mine, but given that 7 and 8 are spare you could combine them and fit 15 on the end.

I did think about that….but not until after I’d wired several levers! As the distant won’t exist on the layout, I can’t be bothered to go back and redo it all. 
 

I would like to make 4&12 actually lock the points - presumably electrically rather than physically. But I haven’t figured out how to do that yet. I think I could route the electrical power for 5 through lever 12, but the DCC powered 11 will be more problematic.

[thegreenhowards]

I’ve also been thinking about point rodding at the west end of the station.  This photo shows the point rodding emerging from under the barrow crossing and heading for the West end point. But I don't understand why there are two rods. One seems to stop at the point but the other continues West for a few yards and ends about where it disappears off the photo. What might this be doing? The signal control wire appears to be on the other side of the track, so I don't think its signal related.

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

Andy

[young37215]

Nice work with the lever frame. On the basis that there are 2 FPL's on the frame as shown on the signal box track diagram, I am guessing that the 2 point rodding runs will have been for the FPL and the point.

 

  

[St Enodoc]

22 minutes ago, young37215 said:

Nice work with the lever frame. On the basis that there are 2 FPL's on the frame as shown on the signal box track diagram, I am guessing that the 2 point rodding runs will have been for the FPL and the point.

 

  

That's exactly right. The rod from lever 4 operates the fouling bar (red horizontal line), which is why it extends beyond the bottom of the image, and in turn the lock itself (red cross) is operated by the fouling bar. The rod from lever 11 stops next to the toe of the point and operates the point itself. The same will apply to levers 12 and 5 at the other end of the station.

[thegreenhowards]

Thanks both, I wondered about the point lock but couldn’t see why it went beyond the point. Now I understand!

[Jeremy Cumberland]

At the very bottom of hte picture you can see the mechanism that operates the fouling bar. The fouling bar itself extends off the bottom of the photo and runs up to very close to the point switch, but is very difficult to see, since it sits immediately below where the wheel flanges run, right against the rail. It will be somethething like 40 feet long, longer than the distance between the inner wheels on a Mk1 (assuming it was modified for Mk1s - I don't know whether this was actually done - the length should be enough to detect any vehicle, which means the bar needs to be a little longer than the longest gap between the wheels).

 

The fouling bar is mounted on a number of pivoting arms, which rotate from about the 10 o'clock posiiton to about the 2 o'clock posiiton by the operation of the FPL lever, lifting the bar up and over, moving the whole bar lengthways as well.

 

Near the points, another mechanism converts the lengthways motion of the fouling bar into the motion needed for the point lock.

 

Here is a drawing that has been posted before on here:

This is a mirror image of your points, and several sleepers have been omitted in the middle of the locking bar. Your points also have detection for the up home signal, but the detector is beyond the left hand edge of the photo. The rodding going to the detector is below the top of the sleeper, and I can't make it out in your picture.

 

[mallaig1983]

Very interesting Jeremy. Thanks for the explanation and diagram. So much knowledge in this community and those kindly willing to share it.

Much appreciated

Thank you 

[thegreenhowards]

The glue has dried on yesterday’s work and I’ve cleared the debris for a few photos. I’m trying to create this area.

 

 The scene is very different today, so I’m going on a limited number of old photos, some of which I can’t show for copyright reasons.

 

This is where I’ve got to.

 

 

 

The steps are a bit of a compromise because the ground should drop off more but I didn’t do that for baseboard integrity reasons. I also need to put in much more weed undergrowth. But I hope you can see that it’s getting there. The barrow crossing is also new.

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

Can I echo @mallaig1983 ‘s thanks to Jeremy. This signalling technical stuff is a complete mystery to me, so very useful. How far I’ll go down the locking bar modelling I don’t know. But at least I’ll know what to do with the rodding!

 

Andy

Edited February 10 by thegreenhowards

[thegreenhowards]

Rob posted the green and cream coaches on his WHL4 thread recently, so I thought that while I have some baseboards up, I’ll show what I intend to do with mine.

 

 

Here we have the new Ellis Clark Black 5 which will become 5407 once I have some transfers. I have 5 of the coaches but only two would fit nicely on this board! Here is the full train on the EKOGG test track.

 

 

I’ve obviously got some sorting out of lamps to do!

 

Andy