London Milk Traffic

[Fat Controller]

17 hours ago, MyRule1 said:

I have always been puzzled by the use of the term "milk train" in popular culture to refer to early morning passenger trains. Any ideas about where this usage came from, were there ever milk trains to/from London termini?

There was an unloading point which used the platform at Vauxhall almost until milk traffic ceased. After unloading (just after the end of the morning peak), the loco (normally an 09 in later days) would draw the train into the sidings on the river side of Waterloo to run round. 

Incidentally, there is a Tennessee Williams play called 'The Milk-Train Don't Stop Here Any More', which is having a revival in October in London....

[MyRule1]

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Incidentally, there is a Tennessee Williams play called 'The Milk-Train Don't Stop Here Any More', which is having a revival in October in London....

Having been inspired by my own question I have done a little detailed research, and the Tennessee Williams play is a clue - the term Milk Train originated in the USA and was first used in the UK in the 1930's my P G Woodhouse in a Jeeves story - source Oxford English Dictionary

[The Lurker]

On 24/09/2022 at 18:26, MyRule1 said:

I have always been puzzled by the use of the term "milk train" in popular culture to refer to early morning passenger trains. Any ideas about where this usage came from, were there ever milk trains to/from London termini?

I remember discussing with friends in the mid 80s when we were in 6th form, or had just become students the possibility of going out in town and then catching the milk train home from Charing Cross to Paddock Wood - my impression was that it was a train in the early hours that perhaps was not on the timetable. We never plucked up courage (or funds) to do it so I don't know for sure. But it clearly was not conveying milk. I have always imagined it had newspapers on but it may have only existed in our hopes! It might have been a long night on the station concourse

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, The Lurker said:

I remember discussing with friends in the mid 80s when we were in 6th form, or had just become students the possibility of going out in town and then catching the milk train home from Charing Cross to Paddock Wood - my impression was that it was a train in the early hours that perhaps was not on the timetable. We never plucked up courage (or funds) to do it so I don't know for sure. But it clearly was not conveying milk. I have always imagined it had newspapers on but it may have only existed in our hopes! It might have been a long night on the station concourse

 

In my experience these trains were known as the newspaper trains.

 

Missing the last train from Liverpool Street to Cambridge, due to a delayed flight, gave my family and I a clear impression of the downsides of a long night on the station concourse!

 

CJI.

[Oldddudders]

Newspaper trains were a distinct category of train, run in the early morning. As well as the vans, a passenger coach, typically a BSK, would be provided. There was a requirement for them to be monitored to the minute. Uniquely - apart from Royal trains - that monitoring was passed by the Divisional Controls to HQ, who then passed it to BRB HQ Control for sharing with the Newspaper Proprietors' Association. The NPA alone could delay a train if there was a delay at the print and any such delay - I never knew it to be more than 10 mins - would apply only to the nominated paper, and other papers' vans arriving after the cut-off time would be turned away, even though the train was still loading. . So the message would be passed to the Divisional Control - say "5 mins for The Times on the 03.40 Vic to Dover". Control would advise the AMO at Victoria, who would inform the Duty SM who was in charge of the loading. After all the trains had left Victoria, the DSM would report that morning's session to Control and advise any delays or difficulties, which would form part of Control's report to HQ. 

 

In my years of involvement with the operational railway, 1967-84, all such trains for both Central and South Eastern Divisions started from Victoria. 

[Nearholmer]

The early morning milk train was a thing that went towards larger towns and metropoli, not away from them, carrying churns, often in vans attached to a passenger train, in the pre-tanker era, so it is a bit odd that it got associated with coming home from town. Is it a simple mix-up with the phrase “Coming home with the milk.”, meaning to arrive on the doorstep at the same time as the bottles?

[C126]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

In my years of involvement with the operational railway, 1967-84, all such trains for both Central and South Eastern Divisions started from Victoria. 

 

I wish to be the last person to disagree with @Oldddudders when he is so much more knowledgable than I, but as a Sunday morning newspaper-boy in the 1970's-80's who rather liked the romance of the newspapers and their trains, may I just say that my W.T.T.s of October 1982, May 1987, and May 1988 quote the 03.33 1F51 News to Bexhill and Horsham leaving from London Bridge.  In the October 1982 it is quoted as 1A03 "Passenger and News to Bexhill" with 1N01 "News to Horsham" detaching at Three Bridges.  Sorry I have not the time to check other trains.  Hope this is of use.

 

I assumed London Bridge was nearer Fleet Street.  I know the trains used to go from Victoria, but do not know when it was switched.

Edited September 27, 2022 by C126
Limit quote.

[Oldddudders]

Evidence is evidence, thanks. Newspaper trains had formerly started from Holborn Viaduct, too, I believe - even closer to Fleet Street. The SE trains would not easily have started from London Bridge due to track layout issues, so perhaps the two sets of services were separated some time in the early '80s. I would last have been Morning Conference Officer for the SE some time in early 1984, and paper train issues were always picked upon by HQ for obvious reasons, hence my belief that Vic was still in use. 

[C126]

Thanks to all concerned for this issue.  Dashed out this morning to buy it, and very happy.  The two maps of the milk depots/hubs were most useful.  And some photos of 'Portsea', Aberdeen goods trains, Cross-country locos, ads for more books to covet...  Looking forward to no. 273 already.

[Karhedron]

On 09/09/2022 at 12:05, ModRXsouth said:

It would be really incredible if photos exist of a Warship or Western at Morden South!

 Sadly I think that may be unlikely. 6O19, the direct Chard Junction - Morden milk train was scheduled to reach Morden shortly after midnight. The chances of a keen photographer being around to catch a such a routine working and get a decent photograph in the dark are pretty small I would guess.

[Karhedron]

I also just picked up my copy. A great article and very informative. Really looking forwrards to part 2. :)

[Karhedron]

@David J Hayes Thanks for putting up the timetables from 1968 as well, these are really informative.

 

I do have one quesion though, quite a few workings show up between Kenny O and Willesden. I am guessing that these are for the Unigate Scrubbs Lane bottling plant at Mitre Bridge Junction. The map at the end of the article mentions several destinations and hubs around London but only lists Willesden as a hub and makes no mention of the bottling plant. Do you know if it had closed by 1968? I am guessing it was still in operation as I can't see a need for trip workings to Willesden otherwise. The LMR had largely cease milk train operations by this time as far as I am aware apart from the Shrewsbury service that you noted. But there seem to be more trip workings to Willesden than that one train would account for.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Karhedron

[C126]

If it is correct to ask subsiduary questions a little 'off-topic', can anyone tell me please where the milk bottling and consolidation/distribution plants are of to-day?  I assume milk is still taken to dairy and supermarket bottling plants - i.e., farms do not do all this themselves and then have it taken away - and would be interested to know the organisation of milk and its products to-day, as an insight into modern practice.

[Karhedron]

Milk transport today has been largely decentralised. Milk is generally consumed closer to where it is produced with a larger number of smaller milk processing facilities distributed around the country. This means that milk is generally fresher and has travelled less far before reaching the consumer. Supermarkets are major players in the dairy industry and are responsible for a lot of processing and transportation. Even in the good old days of milk trains, a  lot of milk came into London by lorry from the home counties. Improvements in road haulage as well as increased output from these farms are part of the reason for the decline in milk trains. By the end of the 70s, London simply didn't need bulk milk shipping in from the far west.

[C126]

My  thanks, @Karhedron , for your helpful description of the current situation.  From its dominance in the rail freight system when operating, I assumed London was an 'outlier' in needing such large quantities of milk that could not be supplied by nearby dairy farms, compared to other cities.  Much appreciated, and as one who still gets his 'pintas' every two days on his door-step.  Milk-ho!

[Karhedron]

London did indeed receive the lion's share of milk traffic but smaller flows to other areas did exist. For example, we normally think of Wales dispatching milk to London but the dairies at Trecynon and Marshfields both sometimes received milk from further west for local consumption when supplies in the valleys areas were insufficient.

[KeithMacdonald]

Thanks to Paul Bartlett for his pics of rebuilt milk tanks - and what they looked like when they were new & shiny. 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mmbmilk

 

And then there's his pics of what they looked like after they had been in the care of BR for a while ... let's hope they were kept cleaner inside.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmilktanks

 

Or some on Flickr.

 

[hmrspaul]

58 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Thanks to Paul Bartlett for his pics of rebuilt milk tanks - and what they looked like when they were new & shiny. 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mmbmilk

 

And then there's his pics of what they looked like after they had been in the care of BR for a while ... let's hope they were kept cleaner inside.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmilktanks

 

Or some on Flickr.

 

 

I don't understand this. The second set of pictures are representing the numerous wagons built between early 1930s and mid 1950s, the first set of pictures are a completely refurbished, rebuilt set as they appeared after the earlier wagons were all withdrawn, some being rebuilt into the later type. 

 

The Flicr picture is interesting in being of the mix of early types - several designs can be seen but all barrels are in remarkably similar, clean, unpainted finish. 

Paul

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

I don't understand this.

 

Apologies if the chronology is in the wrong order - it was merely intended to show what passed for "clean" - when new and after being used by BR. Suffice to say that hygiene standards nowadays are higher, and road tankers used for milk are now kept much much cleaner - at least they are here in milk-producing parts of Wiltshire.

[David J Hayes]

7 hours ago, Karhedron said:

@David J Hayes Thanks for putting up the timetables from 1968 as well, these are really informative.

 

I do have one quesion though, quite a few workings show up between Kenny O and Willesden. I am guessing that these are for the Unigate Scrubbs Lane bottling plant at Mitre Bridge Junction. The map at the end of the article mentions several destinations and hubs around London but only lists Willesden as a hub and makes no mention of the bottling plant. Do you know if it had closed by 1968? I am guessing it was still in operation as I can't see a need for trip workings to Willesden otherwise. The LMR had largely cease milk train operations by this time as far as I am aware apart from the Shrewsbury service that you noted. But there seem to be more trip workings to Willesden than that one train would account for.

THANK you, "Karhedron" for your welcome comments and query. Much appreciated. Your knowledge on this topic is far better than mine, as I wasn't even aware of a bottling plant at Mitre Bridge. However, as mentioned in the article, there was a train from Shrewsbury to Willesden, which as of October 1970 was electric-hauled from Wolverhampton.

 

I, therefore, assumed that Willesden was used mainly as a forwarding and gathering point for milk tanks for the London area (loaded traffic ex-Shropshire and possibly ex-Cumbria), although I did wonder if there may have been an unloading facility located close by as there was a milk empties departure to Kensington Olympia shown in the WTT (see below).

 

The October 1968 West London Line WTT shows Willesden ML (Main Line) as a starting and terminating point for "trips" to and from Kensington Olympia (I'm pretty sure I've also seen Willesden DED - District Electric-Depot - mentioned as well somewhere!), such as 3V33 and 3V52, the latter shown as empties. However, I may have thought the reference "empties" for 3V52 was possibly a "typo". There was also an evening 3M08 empties from Kensington to Willesden ML, again giving me reason to assume that Willesden was a milk hub.

 

Having quickly checked the official WTT again, another empties was that of 3V37 from Cricklewood to "Kenny-O", which was shown as departing Willesden ML at 06:28 (there's no arrival time shown). Unfortunately, I didn't include this detail in the RMweb table, so apologies for that omission. 

 

As I hope your good self and others can appreciate, the RMweb table is very detailed and required a lot of cross-referencing of the official WTT to obtain the necessary information. Although I have tried to be as thorough as possible, there may well be certain other details that have not been included, which I may have thought (at the time of its compilation) as not being relevant, but perhaps, in hindsight, I should have included.  

 

Cheers.

 

David J. Hayes. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by David J Hayes

[David J Hayes]

FURTHER to my above comment, Part Two of my London Milk article, in TRACTION 273, should hopefully contain further tabulations showing the milk train activity to be seen in capital during the late 1970s. I have also compiled a slightly more detailed version for possible inclusion here on the RMweb.

 

Part Two will also look at milk movements in the 1980s and the attempted milk by rail revival of the late 1990s. There should also be a "companion" wagon feature by respected author and wagon expert David Ratcliffe. 

 

Cheers.

 

David J. Hayes. 

[ModRXsouth]

9 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 Sadly I think that may be unlikely. 6O19, the direct Chard Junction - Morden milk train was scheduled to reach Morden shortly after midnight. The chances of a keen photographer being around to catch a such a routine working and get a decent photograph in the dark are pretty small I would guess.

Karhedron - Many thanks for your reply.
In the absence of photos, is it still reasonable to accept that a Warship or Western diesel could have been a milk train’s traction at Morden South?

[David J Hayes]

6 hours ago, ModRXsouth said:

Karhedron - Many thanks for your reply.
In the absence of photos, is it still reasonable to accept that a Warship or Western diesel could have been a milk train’s traction at Morden South?

IF I may, "ModRXsouth", unless anyone else can give reason otherwise, such as route availability issues etc, I suppose it could be possible that a "Warship" or "Western" turned up at Morden South on a milk train at some point back then, as such types did work across London by way of the West London Line on inter-regional freights from the WR to the SR. However, I have recently been trawling through various complete-year back issues of Ian Allan magazines from the 1960s and 1970s, as part of some research for another project, and have not seen anything reported of such an occurrence.

 

Also, as "Karhedron" said, the arrival time of such a working at Morden South would not normally be witnessed by the average enthusiast unless, of course, they were actually employed at the said bottling plant or perhaps worked for BR, but even then it may not get reported to the railway media.

 

There would probably have been more chance of empty milk tanks being observed and/or perhaps even "photted" being worked by a "Warship" or "Western" at Morden South, although, again, I have not come across anything to support this. That's not to say it didn't happen, although I'm pretty sure that if any decent pictures did exist, at least one would've appeared in print by now, or maybe it has? 

 

Cheers.

 

David J. Hayes.

 

 

6 hours ago, ModRXsouth said:

Karhedron - Many thanks for your reply.
In the absence of photos, is it still reasonable to accept that a Warship or Western diesel could have been a milk train’s traction at Morden South?

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by David J Hayes

[Karhedron]

11 hours ago, ModRXsouth said:

Karhedron - Many thanks for your reply.
In the absence of photos, is it still reasonable to accept that a Warship or Western diesel could have been a milk train’s traction at Morden South?

 

I see no obvious reason to doubt the recollections on the Nine Elms website. For what it is worth, I did manage to find this photo of a Light Pacific at Wimbledon Park on its way to South Mordon. While earlier than your period, it does at least show that mainline locos did sometimes haul the milk trains directly to the depot. Not everything was trip workings from Clapham Junction. Not conclusive proof but at least evidence in favour of the possibility.

 

https://twitter.com/JanesTrains/status/1404176704575246341/photo/1

[Pint of Adnams]

On 10/09/2022 at 20:20, David J Hayes said:

IT is pleasing to see that my forthcoming London Milk article in TRACTION 272 & 273 has already sparked some welcome interest and I can confirm to "ModRXsouth" that Morden South is, indeed, mentioned in the feature, which mainly looks at the last decade of regular milk traffic on British Rail. I am very grateful to Stephen Rabone for arranging for the October 1968 Kensington Olympia timetable and mid-1970s routing map of an Acton Yard to St. Erth service to appear on this website (lack of space precluded their inclusion with the main article itself).

 

The said table provides a good insight of the intense milk operations that were centred on "Kenny-O" back in the day, with a tabulation of around 300 movements (including local Feeders and Light Engines) each week just for this traffic alone! A greatly scaled-down version of the table should hopefully appear with the article itself (together with other tabulations) and gives details of some 44 trunk milk train arrivals at Kensington Olympia each week from the main areas of supply. 

 

I very much hope that readers will find the article of interest and I welcome any corrections or other related comments via the TRACTION "Letters" section.

 

Cheers. 

 

David J. Hayes. 

 

 

 

 

Having been away I've just caught this. Might I enquire if there was still any milk traffic to/from East Anglia in these later days, or that is discussed in your articles?

 

The last movement I am aware of was to Stowmarket (?) from the West Country (Chard Junction) during a very dry summer of 1981.

 

Many thanks.