RTR sounds - why the silence?

[dpgibbons]

Isn't it strange that manufacturers of RTR locos - even the most expensive brass variety - rarely bother to advertise the source or authenticity of their soundsets, or who programmed them? 

[Hamburger]

Oh, but some already give the source. And also mention the sound designer.
I suspect that if this information is missing, the sounds are either not authentic and/or the sound designer is not that well known.

[Steven B]

They don't publicise where they get their drawings from, or who designed specific models so why would they extend this to their sound projects?

 

I'm more surprised they're not doing more to promote factory fitted sound model. For example, searching for the recent Farish 08 on YouTube only brought up DIY and third-party conversions last time I looked.

 

Steven B

[Phil Parker]

Why do they have to tell you how authentic the sound is, surely you have a listen and make your own mind up?

[RAF96]

5 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Why do they have to tell you how authentic the sound is, surely you have a listen and make your own mind up?

 

They don’t have to, but some folk like to have provenance. If there is a preserved loco then folk could quite rightly expect live recordings rather than cobbled library sounds.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Pretty sure most manufacturers do this anyway—sometimes using sound libraries where the prototype no longer exists.

 

But there are undoubtedly some locos where authentic sounds aren't possible—class 21s/22s/29s for example. Where sound fitted versions of these are being produced, it would be helpful to know how they have been derived.

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Pretty sure most manufacturers do this anyway—sometimes using sound libraries where the prototype no longer exists.

 

But there are undoubtedly some locos where authentic sounds aren't possible—class 21s/22s/29s for example. Where sound fitted versions of these are being produced, it would be helpful to know how they have been derived.

In what way?

As Phil said listen to what they sound like.

Wherever the sounds have come from, how it is compiled must have an effect.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Not sure how listening helps much if you haven't heard the prototype yourself… and I'm not sure that all manufacturers make videos available anyway. Rapido have for the N gauge class 28, and said how they derived it (from an EMD engine, as it's also a two-stroke).

 

I've generally been pretty happy with the sound on British prototype models, not so happy with some Continental European models. I have a Roco 798 DB railbus and a Fleischmann 795. The 798 sound is far more convincing — you can hear the gear changes, but not on the 795. However these companies do now advertise where their sound files come from, at least for some models.

[charliepetty]

DCKits & Legomanbiffo will, IF you ask.  Charlie

Edited September 17, 2022 by charliepetty

[dpgibbons]

10 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Why do they have to tell you how authentic the sound is, surely you have a listen and make your own mind up?

 

It's rarely possible to assess sound authenticity or quality before purchase, as neither manufacturers nor magazine reviewers pay much attention to this area. A strange omission given that this feature can cost a third or more of a loco's price tag.

 

Perhaps BRM might take a lead here?

[Darius43]

I reported this to the FBI in Lancing.  They told me to go away or else they would tell my Mum I had been making a nuisance of myself.

 

Cheers

Darius

[ITG]

Surely, hearing the sound as a test is only relevant if listening to the model in a “live” situation, otherwise you are limited to what your playback device (phone, tablet, pc) can reproduce. For me, as I’ve never heard many of the real locos for which I have sound, or if I did, I wasn’t sufficiently interested at that time to note what was what, that I’m content to assess via tablet, and personally, I’ve not been disappointed so far.

[Chris M]

39 minutes ago, ITG said:

Surely, hearing the sound as a test is only relevant if listening to the model in a “live” situation, otherwise you are limited to what your playback device (phone, tablet, pc) can reproduce. For me, as I’ve never heard many of the real locos for which I have sound, or if I did, I wasn’t sufficiently interested at that time to note what was what, that I’m content to assess via tablet, and personally, I’ve not been disappointed so far.

Everyone is entitled to get enjoyment from our hobby they way they want and everyone has their own opinions; it would be a dull world if we were all the same. I'm about as far away from ITG as you can be on this. So far I have heard nothing in 00 or N that could be described as anywhere near convincing sound. I would rather have no sound than even the best thin and feeble attempt at sound that can be got from a very small speaker.  For example, this is what a Castle at speed, complete with train should sound like.

 

In response to the opening question - I don't think the writer of the code or the source of the sound is the least bit important. The important thing is to get the sound of the real thing in your head, preferably by actually being there, and then deciding if the model sound is any good for yourself.

[Chris M]

 

Same loco climbing up to Whiteball summit from the south. For my ears, sounds in locos just seem so flat and two dimensional compared to this. This clip also shows why smoke effects haven't been worth bothering with and lays down the gauntlet for Hornby's new system.

[Michael Hodgson]

The best use of steam sound effects that I can remember was in halls of residence whilst I was a student in 1969, not long after the end of steam on BR.  A couple of my fellow students got together, one with a fancy hi-fi system that he had just bought, the other had one of those Transacord recordings of various steam trains.  They quietly set up speakers facing outwards in two rooms a fair distance apart, opened the windows and turned off the lights.  Then they put on this record, which started quietly with cattle lowing, until in the distance an express approached getting gradually louder until it passed the microphone and gave a loud blast on the whistle followed by the sound of wheels on the rail joints and gradually faded away until all you could hear was the cows in the field once again.

 

Lights came on in numerous bedrooms, heads appeared out of windows, all clearly confused by what they had just heard.  The nearest raiway was the Kenilworth branch a couple of miles away which only saw perhaps one or two freight trains a week, diesel hauled, and only in daytime.  I don't think they ever did find out how come they had heard a ghost train.

[ITG]

6 hours ago, Chris M said:

I'm about as far away from ITG as you can be on this. So far I have heard nothing in 00 or N that could be described as anywhere near convincing sound. I would rather have no sound than even the best thin and feeble attempt at sound that can be got from a very small speaker.

Fair enough, each to their own. I prefer the maybe less than perfect sound to no sound at all - which of course is also unrealistic. That’s the beauty of this hobby…. There is no “wrong” in the eyes (or should I say ‘ears’) of the beholder.

[Wheatley]

18 hours ago, dpgibbons said:

 

... as neither manufacturers nor magazine reviewers pay much attention to this area.

 

They're already expected to be experts on every visual aspect of the loco and pilloried on here and elsewhere if they fail to notice or gloss over a dimensional error, the chances of them being able to objectively comment on the accuracy of a sound as well is a tall order. The only real ones I can tell without looking are/were Valetta HSTs, 66s and 68s, and no sound chip will ever recreate the fact that you can feel the 68 from the other side of the station, never mind hear it. I'd rather they focussed on whether it worked properly and how many bits fell off in the box.

 

10 hours ago, Chris M said:

So far I have heard nothing in 00 or N that could be described as anywhere near convincing sound. I would rather have no sound than even the best thin and feeble attempt at sound that can be got from a very small speaker.

Likewise. I've yet to hear a convincing 4mm scale steam loco, and I've heard a few which didn't sound much better than Margate's 1960s peg and bit of sandpaper. I can make my own chuff-chuff noises, not always in my head either. I try not to do it at shows. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Wheatley

[dpgibbons]

5 hours ago, Wheatley said:

the chances of them being able to objectively comment on the accuracy of a sound as well is a tall order

 

Of course. But reviewers could reasonably be expected to ask the manufacturer where the sounds came from, and who prepared the soundset. When I'm spending GBP120 for sounds I like to know that they were recorded from the original loco.  

 

 

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, dpgibbons said:

 

Of course. But reviewers could reasonably be expected to ask the manufacturer where the sounds came from, and who prepared the soundset. When I'm spending GBP120 for sounds I like to know that they were recorded from the original loco.  

 

 

 

Ah. But how much are you prepared to pay for the review? We are regularly told, on here, that people are happier with free online reviews, even if they consist of nothing more than out of focus squealing about opening the box...

 

Basically, it's going to come down to time. Any loco review takes at least a day and no more information is supplied than what is in the box. Add in a tight deadline, more common than you would hope, because most manufacturers don't supply models ahead of them landing in the shops, and there are limits to what can be done. Do you want a review 2 months after the model has been delivered?

 

We also rarely get the sound fitted model to play with. When we do, it usually gets video, but then you've the filter of the reviewers recording gear and viewers playback device. 

 

The basic idea is sound (pun intended) but the reality makes it harder to do. 

[melmerby]

On 17/09/2022 at 08:35, Chris M said:

So far I have heard nothing in 00 or N that could be described as anywhere near convincing sound.

IMHO the problem with all this is that you cannot scale sounds.

To reproduce sound anything like the original you need big speakers, really big speakers and all you can get in a loco is a weeny liitle thing, that can't reproduce any bass.

 

Some seem to be satisfied with that state of affairs, that is their prerogative and their cash thay are spending.

 

Yesterday I went to the Redditch MRC show and there were two layouts with sound, close together.

Without getting pretty close, you couldn't tell which loco on which layout was making the sound.

 

Maybe it's an age thing?

Having been interested in trains since the 50s (EE 350hp shunters then were 13XXX) I can remember the transition from steam to diesel and electric quite vividly and the raw energy of the sound when standing next to a loco as it started with a heavy train.

As Wheatley says, you can feel it as well as hear it. No small scale model can come close, it's governed by the physics of it all.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

IMHO the problem with all this is that you cannot scale sounds.

 

 

Oh I think we generally turn the volume down a bit. perhaps not by a factor of 1:76 though.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Michael Hodgson

[GeoffAlan]

Having heard sound fitted locos at exhibitions I'm not impressed. While the starting off sounds seem OK, the sound of steam locos while running sounds like they have the thing in full gear and pulling hard. Not the sound of an engine with small cut off and running free. 

[fulton]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

 

 

Yesterday I went to the Redditch MRC show and there were two layouts with sound, close together.

Without getting pretty close, you couldn't tell which loco on which layout was making the sound.

 

 

[fulton]

1 minute ago, fulton said:

 

Interesting comment, yesterday I was exhibiting at the Crawley US show, my layout, modern image has sound which I like at home, the layout opposite also had sound, steam and diesel, and yes I could not tell where the sound was coming from, my diesel was moving all I could hear was a steam sound, both our layouts had modest sound volumes.

[Blandford1969]

Whether the sound is accurate or not to me is academic as I have found  at exhibitions finding those with steam sounds often not knowing what would really happen. For example an engine moving to run round or move in sidings on models they 'chuff' all the way till they stop. In reality you give it a breath of steam and then roll and use only small breaths to keep control.