RTR sounds - why the silence?

[WIMorrison]

I have exhibited at several shows and I find one of the most annoying aspects of exhibiting is being stuck beside a layout that is emitting disembodied, thin and often distorted sounds which sound unlike anything that I hear from the real, persevered railway that is near my house.

 

In 00 scale this distance would equate to around 3m on a model, and in N somewhere around 2m. I can assure you that almost none of the model sounds that emanate from these real locos reach my house and therefore at exhibition distances you should not hear them either - the only sounds that I hear are when the trains leave the station, when is powering up the bank to the station, or the whistle - and even then I have never heard a 4mm model provide any sound that is anywhere near realistic, and 2mm models - no comment.

 

 

[Locoman58]

1 hour ago, Blandford1969 said:

those with steam sounds often not knowing what would really happen. For example an engine moving to run round or move in sidings on models they 'chuff' all the way till they stop. In reality you give it a breath of steam and then roll and use only small breaths to keep control. 

Yes, we think so too. That's why the D&H decoders have an (adjustable!) "Automatic Coasting Feature" in shunting mode.
Listen here:

 

Saluti

Locoman

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, GeoffAlan said:

Having heard sound fitted locos at exhibitions I'm not impressed. While the starting off sounds seem OK, the sound of steam locos while running sounds like they have the thing in full gear and pulling hard. Not the sound of an engine with small cut off and running free. 

Agreed. The simulation of reverser position and other controls is not matching up to reality yet. I hope these things will improve.

 

And there are other dynamics that have not been taken into account yet. For instance, you might be able to hear coal shovelling when you're standing next to a stationary loco but should you be able to hear it when it's flashing past you at 60m.p.h.?

 

2 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

Whether the sound is accurate or not to me is academic as I have found  at exhibitions finding those with steam sounds often not knowing what would really happen. For example an engine moving to run round or move in sidings on models they 'chuff' all the way till they stop. In reality you give it a breath of steam and then roll and use only small breaths to keep control. 

 

A good sound project and decoder combination will allow the loco to coast with just the valves puffing and spitting when you lift off the regulator. If people aren't driving their locos that way, that's their choice, not a general problem with DCC sound.

 

We all accept various compromises for scale with our models and sound is no different. It's not perfect but it adds an extra dimension - like adding crew to your loco. Those 1:76 humans are not perfect either, they stand rock-still all the time...!

 

Getting to the OP's question (which assumed that sound is worth having): Something that the buyer also needs to know these days is the quality of the sound recordings. Current ESU and Zimo sound decoders are 16bit but some of the samples used may still be 8bit, meaning that the expensive decoders are not being used to their best advantage. It can be very disappointing to find that out after buying.

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Harlequin

[wombatofludham]

I'm a sound convert, but I have to admit steam sound effects are not quite there yet.  In addition to the speaker tech, I suspect the current sound editors are suffering with a similar problem I used to experience when editing and producing sound files for the Kuju-Microsoft "Train Simulator" twenty years ago.  Back then computer capacity and the coding of the game limited the number of sound streams you could add before you caused the game to crash.  For diesel and electric locos and stock this was less of a problem, but for steam, I could never get the "mix" right to my ears.  Most diesel locos increase pitch in a fairly linear fashion as their RPM increases, with volume following a similar simple formula, which is relatively easy to replicate with fewer sound streams.  Steam on the other hand is far more complex, with multiple streams necessary to get the rich complexity of the sounds generated, and for the most part there isn't a simple speed related change of pitch.  I imagine that modern micro-processors used in sound chips are probably capable of processing a similar number of sound channels and streams as we were back at the beginning of the century in Train Sim, so whilst I am generally quite happy with D+E sounds when fitted with decent speaker tech I am not so convinced about steam sounds, with one or two exceptions.

I'm sure, with the development of mobile phone technology, sound processing and reproduction will leap forward over the next few years as they seek to reproduce lossless music reproduction for those who simply can't live without the BBC record library on their mobile, and any increase in capacity on DCC sound chips should help to increase the depth and quality of steam loco reproduction - assuming that is that capacity doesn't get used up by frankly irrelevant stuff like coupling clanks and the fireman farting.  I'd rather that space and processing power was used to add to the wide breadth of sounds emitted by a steam loco in normal running which would improve the running experience.

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Oh I think we generally turn the volume down a bit. perhaps not by a factor of 1:76 though.

Nothing to do with sound level.

It's the frequency spectrum that you can't scale.

[D9020 Nimbus]

I've generally found British diesel sounds to be fairly convincing but I've been less convinced by steam loco sounds, though I was impressed with the Rails/Bachmann Caledonian 0-6-0 in OO.

 

It's worth remembering that quite apart from the sound of the engine itself, there are other sounds that can be called on which assist in prototypical operation. The guard's ready to start whistle, the driver's acknowledgment, … For some prototypes, there are whistle/horn codes associated with various operational tasks.

 

Sound in exhibition settings tends to be less effective than in domestic settings due to room size and adjoining layouts sounds interfering with each other.

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

DCC sound chips should help to increase the depth and quality of steam loco reproduction

The audio signals out of the sound chip might be faithful to the prototype but there is still the physical restraint of reproducting these on weeny speakers, which simply cannot produce the low frequencies which are there a plenty in both steam and diesel locomotives.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

The audio signals out of the sound chip might be faithful to the prototype but there is still the physical restraint of reproducting these on weeny speakers, which simply cannot produce the low frequencies which are there a plenty in both steam and diesel locomotives.

 

Speakers don't have to be fitted in locos.  No reason why you couldn't have a speaker fixed under the baseboard, and it could be as large as you like.  Of course the sound would not then be static and not move about with the loco, and the circuitry would be different - you probably wouldn't do it via DCC.

[black and decker boy]

11 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

Whether the sound is accurate or not to me is academic as I have found  at exhibitions finding those with steam sounds often not knowing what would really happen. For example an engine moving to run round or move in sidings on models they 'chuff' all the way till they stop. In reality you give it a breath of steam and then roll and use only small breaths to keep control. 

That’s probably operator error / choice.

 

I use Zimo chips which have active breaking (F2) and both steam & diesel coast very quietly. The sound files also have a light loco  / shunting mode (F5 I think) which really diminishes the steam chuff. Playing with these at exhibitions is great fun across the layout and it’s different scenes 

[melmerby]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

Speakers don't have to be fitted in locos.  No reason why you couldn't have a speaker fixed under the baseboard, and it could be as large as you like.  Of course the sound would not then be static and not move about with the loco, and the circuitry would be different - you probably wouldn't do it via DCC.

You can.

4 speakers at the "corners" of a layout and spatial sound depending on where the train is.

TrainController 4D sound follows the train tracking.

[WIMorrison]

2 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

I use Zimo chips which have active breaking (F2)

Could be an expensive hobby if the decoders are actively breaking all the time, you will have a lot to replace 🤣

[F-UnitMad]

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Speakers don't have to be fitted in locos.  No reason why you couldn't have a speaker fixed under the baseboard, and it could be as large as you like.  Of course the sound would not then be static and not move about with the loco, and the circuitry would be different - you probably wouldn't do it via DCC.

I did that years ago on a relatively small layout, it was very effective as the locos were always close to the sound source. It was with 12v DC, using an American MRC Sound Box set up. At the couple of shows I did with it people kept asking what DCC decoders I was using. 😁

[Blandford1969]

20 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

That’s probably operator error / choice.

 

I use Zimo chips which have active breaking (F2) and both steam & diesel coast very quietly. The sound files also have a light loco  / shunting mode (F5 I think) which really diminishes the steam chuff. Playing with these at exhibitions is great fun across the layout and it’s different scenes 

Quite possibly, although having said that unless you have physically driven its unlikely most would understand how much or little you do to shunt a light engine or even a couple of wagons. 

[black and decker boy]

1 hour ago, Blandford1969 said:

Quite possibly, although having said that unless you have physically driven its unlikely most would understand how much or little you do to shunt a light engine or even a couple of wagons. 

Most punters wouldn’t know either…..

 

I’ve driven various diesels (depot shunts etc) and spent many hours watching shunting operations in my youth. Steam I have only really seen on YouTube though from 1970s & 80s (eg Bickershaw) but laws of physics say locos work harder on a long full take than empties or light loco so try to replicate that. It might not be 100% but it’s a model and it’s my bit of fun to enjoy and hope that most exhibition punters enjoy it too, even if they do remember driving colliery steam in 1973 :-)

[Steven B]

I've got a hand-full of DCC sound fitted locos, but find the DMUs work best. The big problem with any sound fitted loco is that the rest of the train is quiet. Compare a video of a DCC sound fitted loco to one of the real thing and however realistic the sound is (some are suburb), the lack of noise from the wagons or coaches on the model is very noticeable.

 

Steven B.

[JST]

I agree Steven. This is why I fit my track direct to 16mm chipboard with no cork underlay or other sound deadening. It gets the right amount of racket when trains run. I vividly remember standing not far from the track when a Castle or King thundered by with 13 coaches... the ground shook!

 

On a general note, I love sound locos. If I run trains without sound when friends come round they are quite impressed but when I turn the sound on their jaws drop! I am not trying to convince experts!

[Michael Hodgson]

On 20/09/2022 at 12:50, Steven B said:

I've got a hand-full of DCC sound fitted locos, but find the DMUs work best. The big problem with any sound fitted loco is that the rest of the train is quiet. Compare a video of a DCC sound fitted loco to one of the real thing and however realistic the sound is (some are suburb), the lack of noise from the wagons or coaches on the model is very noticeable.

 

Steven B.

I suppose you could fit a sound decoder in a van or the brake comartment of a coach to make the diddy-de-dum noises or crashing of buffers and snatching of 3-link couplings, as appropriate..

[Ruston]

On 16/09/2022 at 13:13, Phil Parker said:

Why do they have to tell you how authentic the sound is, surely you have a listen and make your own mind up?

It's all very well saying that but how are we supposed to do that? If it's a model that you can go into a shop and buy then I'm sure any model shop owner who wants to make a sale is going to let you see and hear the loco run, but in these days of having to "pre-order" things from small scale commissioners, and pay for them long before they are even made, how can we listen to them?

We can't, so knowing which manufacturer's decoder is going into the model, who produced the sound project, and what locomotive they recorded to get the sounds would be extremely helpful. Especially so when the type concerned no longer exists, so an actual prototype cannot be recorded. It all helps to make a decision whether or not to buy a sound-fitted model, or to buy a non-sound one and source our own sound from things that are already available.

[jjb1970]

People should enjoy whatever makes them happy and if sound works for them then great but it really doesn't do anything for me.

A big problem is most people have volume way too high which creates an immediate incongruence between visual impression and sound. And regardless of volume I've never heard a sound fitted locomotive come close to the low frequency sounds of a real locomotive, and you don't get the doppler effect on a roundy roundy layout.

My boy used to like sound but grew out of it and ended up losing interest in sound equipped locomotives. When it comes to locomotives for which there are no good quality recordings and for which people never heard in real life I guess the question would be why worry? If you don't know what the real thing sounded like, and it's hard to figure out from any available recordings then why not just enjoy whatever the sound file has? There's probably no way to prove it is either correct or incorrect as the only way you could really do that is to find the same engine model with the same induction and exhaust arrangement, run it up with an equivalent load profile to a train and listen. Which seems a lot of expense and effort just to see if a sound file sounds right. Something worth keeping in mind is that most of the noise you hear from an engine is not the engine, it is the induction and exhaust, meaning the same engine can sound completely different in different installations.