Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[bradfordbuffer]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

It depends if you think driving/crashing into stationery coaches in the platform at a scale 30mph, which is one of the incidents the OP mentioned, is a minor infraction of the operations rule book.........

Yep more than prototypical....I have come in to contact with buffer stops! (Class 308 defective triple valves!) Derailed for no reason on plane line! (Class 31 in tubrook sidings Wavertree) run off the wires with a class 90! (Crewe Basford Hall

... shunter pulled wrong points and called me on! I panned down just before wires finished and coasted to other end of loop!) Red signals...shhhh....set fire to a 47....list goes on! I'm sure so called friends will chip in with other incidents🤫

Good job they pay me to stop at home now and pay my pension ☺️ railway may be a safer place

[Chris M]

As we have drifted towards scenery and curves that are too sharp I will bring up my greatest annoyance. Pretty much every layout, especially many of the finescale ones, are so obviously no more than track laid on a flat baseboard with scenery built around it. This looks so wrong but the vast majority of layouts at any show will be built this way. At every show you will see exquisite modelling ruined by plonking track and scenery on a flat baseboard.  To me this is a far worse crime than any other mentioned here and one that is easily resolved by building layouts on open baseboards. Ground is not flat, even in Norfolk. OK to be fair the area around Swindon works is flat and the workers housing does look like it has been laid on a flat baseboard but these places are few and far between. Lets get the basics right before worrying about the detail!

[newbryford]

8 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

I'm sure so called friends will chip in with other incidents🤫

 

 

The safe word is Tamworth.....

[Chris M]

To illustrate my point on flat baseboards you need go no further than  BRM. All very fine modelling but the start point for almost all layouts was so obviously a flat baseboard. There are some fine exceptions and also a few layouts with one baseboard lower than track level to relieve the monotony. Why go to the trouble of building finescale track if the land it sits on is wrong?

[newbryford]

10 minutes ago, Chris M said:

To illustrate my point on flat baseboards you need go no further than  BRM. All very fine modelling but the start point for almost all layouts was so obviously a flat baseboard. There are some fine exceptions and also a few layouts with one baseboard lower than track level to relieve the monotony. Why go to the trouble of building finescale track if the land it sits on is wrong?

 

Somebody once walked past my layout and said it was too flat.

They clearly hadn't seen the prototype on which it is based.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by newbryford

[whart57]

1 minute ago, Chris M said:

To illustrate my point on flat baseboards you need go no further than  BRM. All very fine modelling but the start point for almost all layouts was so obviously a flat baseboard. There are some fine exceptions and also a few layouts with one baseboard lower than track level to relieve the monotony. Why go to the trouble of building finescale track if the land it sits on is wrong?

 

The bus on a bridge may be a cliche, but although train on a bridge should be too you rarely see it. It's a bit more work but providing an embankment of 3/4" chipboard to put the track on grants you a lot of scope for variable ground levels. Makes it a bit harder to change the track design of course, but that's the trade off.

[newbryford]

1 minute ago, whart57 said:

 

The bus on a bridge may be a cliche, but although train on a bridge should be too you rarely see it. It's a bit more work but providing an embankment of 3/4" chipboard to put the track on grants you a lot of scope for variable ground levels. Makes it a bit harder to change the track design of course, but that's the trade off.

 

Train on a bridge, bus under it?

 

[whart57]

6 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Somebody once walked past my layout and said it was too flat.

 

 

Kathy Millat said that of our layout in the Great Model Railway Challenge. Puzzled us a bit as our layout was set in the Netherlands.

[Andy7]

5 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Somebody once walked past my layout and said it was too flat.

They clearly hadn't seen the prototype on which it is based.

 

 

 

Probably the same people who say models of electrics don’t have much detail on them! Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good moan.

[whart57]

6 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Train on a bridge, bus under it?

 

 

That pic should be in the Realistic Modelling thread.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

As we have drifted towards scenery and curves that are too sharp I will bring up my greatest annoyance. Pretty much every layout, especially many of the finescale ones, are so obviously no more than track laid on a flat baseboard with scenery built around it. This looks so wrong but the vast majority of layouts at any show will be built this way. At every show you will see exquisite modelling ruined by plonking track and scenery on a flat baseboard.  To me this is a far worse crime than any other mentioned here and one that is easily resolved by building layouts on open baseboards. Ground is not flat, even in Norfolk. OK to be fair the area around Swindon works is flat and the workers housing does look like it has been laid on a flat baseboard but these places are few and far between. Lets get the basics right before worrying about the detail!

You’d really get p****d off with my layout then, nice flat baseboard and sectional ballasted track 🤣

 

But you see, without those two important features I would never have been able to build (probably) my last layout.

[bradfordbuffer]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

 

The safe word is Tamworth.....

Good job all the secrets are not told 

[bradfordbuffer]

56 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Somebody once walked past my layout and said it was too flat.

They clearly hadn't seen the prototype on which it is based.

 

 

 

Don't forget the goon who said wheres the station for all the coaches?

[woodenhead]

16 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Don't forget the goon who said wheres the station for all the coaches?

Who would have kittens then if he saw Aberdeen Kirkhill 😆

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/10/2022 at 21:28, Phil Parker said:

 

You've watched a tiny amount of operating on YouTube and from this have decided to condem the layouts featured. You know as well as I do, you are setting yourself up for a fall. Those layouts will have been operated for hours, by different people in the team, but you are condeming them on the basis of a few seconds.

 

However, I look forward to seeing what sanctions you propose for those who fail to meet your standards.

 

Just remember that there are human beings on the recieving end of your brickbats. Anyone commenting might like to consider how those people will feel reading this and moderate thier tone accordingly. 

Interesting viewpoint but - and I'm not bothering reading the rest of this thread - railway modelling is a very broad church and we all have a mix of abilities and interests.  But a lot depends on how we set ourselves up and portray ourselves.  Thus, for example if we claim to be accurately modelling the railway at a real place one should reasonably expect all aspects of the model to back up that claim and in my book that includes operation (in so far as is possible with a small scale model).

 

So - to take a very simple example it would perhaps be reasonable - if accuracy to prototype is being claimed - to not apply Rule 1 in respect of, say, locos and stock.  or of you are going to apply Rule 1 than make it clear in the show guide.  And don't claim accuracy if you haven't got correct signalling or aren't running trains properly lamped.  In this particular case mentioned by Johnster I do know that Swindon shed had a habit of ignoring route availability restrictions on some branchlines but sending an 8750 to Faringdon was even extreme by Swindon shed's standards

 

Operational accuracy fora truly representative model is surely as important as every other sort of accuracy in modelling the scene.  and lenty of ayouts are around to prove that is not only possible but can be done.

[Old Gringo]

First, I'd like to thank The Johnster for opening this particular 'can of worms'.  Especially so, as he is one of the few regular contributors to RMweb, like Mike (The Stationmaster) and Ian (Oldddudders), who actually worked on the railway and takes the time and trouble to help us understand how it really operated (i).  That's, of course, in complete contrast to people, like me and many others, who just watched the demise of the 'steam-powered' railway and took a few notes, plus a bundle of out-of-focus pictures! (ii)

 

Anyway, I've followed this topic with interest and have spent time agreeing, disagreeing and laughing at a few of the responses, including the drift into brown work-shop coats.  So, before throwing my proverbial 'hat in the ring' with some more opinions, maybe, like Johnster did in his opening post, I should apologise in advance if any of these comments upset anyone.

 

I've been enjoying fiddling with model railways for over sixty years and yet I still find it exciting to discover something new about my 'railway' obsession - and a couple of posts in this topic contain new insights on operational practices (for me).  During the last 35 years, I've operated at many exhibitions and I've also been lucky enough to assist a number of very talented friends with models of railways, a few of which have featured in magazines and been exhibits at shows all over this big island - and just once in France.  So, IMO, it's important to have a discussion about how operations were carried out by the men 'following the rules' (or avoiding them) on the railway network.

  

Observation 1:  For example, let's say we purchase an almost perfect model of a Lancashire & Yorkshire 2-4-2T, finished in LMS Period One livery, to run on our small terminus layout at a local exhibition.  The splendid locomotive (complete with Springside lamp on the top bracket) draws slowly to a stand beside the platform, with its classic set of etched brass, L.&Y. coaches in tow.  The bull-head trackwork is hand-built, with correct sleeper spacing and period ash ballast and there's even a short section of working point-rodding with compensator, from the release crossover back to the signal box.  It might have been a nearly perfect slice of historical modelling?

 

However, closer inspection reveals that the train has been stopped a long way short of the buffer-stops and much worse still, there's no-one at all on the footplate of the engine!  Add the facts that the layout doesn't have a satisfactory back-scene, or any lighting and there's no explanatory information on display.  So the visitor is left to guess exactly what they're looking at, where it is and what period it's supposed to be set in?  Of course, they might risk asking the grumpy operator who was grappling with the three-link couplings.

 

This was Royton, Lancashire in 1927, my first attempt at a 'finescale' exhibition layout and taken to a small local show, way back in 1990 IIRC.

 

In an earlier post (number 21 on page 3) of this topic, Gilbert set out his eight bullet points for an exhibition layout and somewhere buried in the Wright Writes topic, Tony Wright has also set out an extensive list of criteria for a successful exhibition layout.  Both replies consider reliable operation as one of the top priorities, but don't necessarily consider operational fidelity a requirement needed to reach an acceptable standard for an exhibit at a model railway show (iii).

 

Everybody will have a 'list' somewhere of what they want, they like and really don't like, which eventually becomes their personal set of acceptable standards.  However, I've only come to my own list of 'standards' after over 30 years of attending lots of shows, as a layout owner/operator, group member, exhibition floor planner and, of course, just a visitor.  It's a bit of a subjective list and I wouldn't like to have anyone apply it or use it.

 

However my conclusion is (a bit like Lord Reith's original objective for the BBC) that our model railway exhibits and displays should if possible entertain, inform and perhaps even educate.  Plus, our shows exist to promote the hobby, along with the supporting model manufacturers' products and retail traders, so if you're going to use exacting standards - make them the best you possibly can.

 

All the best,

John

 

edit:  There is an Observation 2, but I maybe I'll find a tin hat to wear before I post it.

 

(i) I've been lucky to have met Mike and Ian on several occasions when I've been operating layouts over the last 15 years. 

(ii) Here's a thought,  when we (the retired train-spotters) celebrated 50 years since the end of the steam-powered railway in 2018, I found it strange to imagine that some of those old drivers working their last trips before redundancy in 1968 had been alive half a century earlier, as the final allied offensive began to bring to an end World War One.

(iii) or another of my own personal 'hang-ups' - presentation and lighting.

[Gilbert]

 

33 minutes ago, Old Gringo said:

 

In an earlier post (number 21 on page 3) of this topic, Gilbert set out his eight bullet points for an exhibition layout and somewhere buried in the Wright Writes topic, Tony Wright has also set out an extensive list of criteria for a successful exhibition layout.  Both replies consider reliable operation as one of the top priorities, but don't necessarily consider operational fidelity a requirement needed to reach an acceptable standard for an exhibit at a model railway show (iii).

 

 

In fairness to me I suggested some criteria as Level 1 - IMHO these needed to be in place before proceeding to Level 2

Believe me I love to see "well operated" layouts at shows - they stand out - but most of the time Level 1 is usually not achieved.....

Chris

NB - this is what I said:

 

• Smooth (ish) running with no stalling
• Few if any derailments(caused by either track or operators)
• Reliable, competently managed couplings - if auto couplers of some sort are used
• No short circuits caused by neglecting to switch points appropriately
• No side swipes
• No bickering within the operating team - often characterisd by shouted communication
• Plausible locomotive/stock/layout presentation
• Willingness to engage with watchers

Edited November 4, 2022 by Gilbert

[bradfordbuffer]

17 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

 

• No side swipes
• No bickering within the operating team - often characterisd by shouted communication

Who called the fun police?

We always bicker but never shout! 

 

Talking of bickering behind layouts No names but there is a large layout ....actual location.....a club in the  North! And I watch the layout not for operation but the dynamics behind the layout.....ohhh they like to bicker and blame everyone else for cxxk ups!  Very entertaining....don't stop!

 

Club and layout name omitted to save embarasment...so NO NAMING AND SHAMEING

[Gilbert]

Just now, bradfordbuffer said:

We always bicker but never shout! 

 

 

I'm all for banter and humour.

My comment was prompted by having spent two days next to a large layout which was not performing well and the operators were definitely upsetting eachother.....

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I think that expectations from us (as modellers) differ between more general model railway shows and those that are organised by specific groups, eg GOG. 
But I imagine the expectations of the general public will be the same for both.

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Somebody once walked past my layout and said it was too flat.

They clearly hadn't seen the prototype on which it is based.

 

 

 

Probably the same people that say that the modern scene is boring and repetitive. There is an interesting range of stock and age of same in that view. 

 

Paul

[Jeff Smith]

6 hours ago, Chris M said:

As we have drifted towards scenery and curves that are too sharp I will bring up my greatest annoyance. Pretty much every layout, especially many of the finescale ones, are so obviously no more than track laid on a flat baseboard with scenery built around it. This looks so wrong but the vast majority of layouts at any show will be built this way. At every show you will see exquisite modelling ruined by plonking track and scenery on a flat baseboard.  To me this is a far worse crime than any other mentioned here and one that is easily resolved by building layouts on open baseboards. Ground is not flat, even in Norfolk. OK to be fair the area around Swindon works is flat and the workers housing does look like it has been laid on a flat baseboard but these places are few and far between. Lets get the basics right before worrying about the detail!

This is very true but of course stations and yards are flat.  However the 'train in the landscape' look for the rest of the layout is very effective with levels both above and below the running line.  This represents some realism in that when railways were originally built the surveyor would decide on an intermediate line level so that spoil from cuttings matched that needed for embankments!

 

Personally I cannot understand why some people build flat topped baseboards with heavy ply on top and expect to move them around easily - only the track needs support, all the rest can be open frame with lightweight scenery.

[ianathompson]

I have stayed off this thread for some time but I might as well stick my oar in.

 

It would seem, as is usual, that some posters support OP and some are against him.

I rarely attend exhibitions so I am perhaps not well placed to comment but it seems to me that operating comes down to a state of mind.

Some people diligently attempt to replicate the actions of the railway and others seem to wantonly ignore them.

 

The title of the thread, and the implied question of "what are acceptable operating standards?", strikes me as being similar to the question of,  "How long is a piece of string?"

There is no definitive answer and everyone will attempt to promote their own personally favoured answer.

 

The subject seems to surface at intervals and hopefully provokes some thought so that is a good thing.

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet I made my own views clear some time ago but there is not enough space here to accommodate them.

 

Ian T

[bradfordbuffer]

14 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

I have stayed off this thread for some time but I might as well stick my oar in.

 

It would seem, as is usual, that some posters support OP and some are against him.

I rarely attend exhibitions so I am perhaps not well placed to comment but it seems to me that operating comes down to a state of mind.

Some people diligently attempt to replicate the actions of the railway and others seem to wantonly ignore them.

 

The title of the thread, and the implied question of "what are acceptable operating standards?", strikes me as being similar to the question of,  "How long is a piece of string?"

There is no definitive answer and everyone will attempt to promote their own personally favoured answer.

 

The subject seems to surface at intervals and hopefully provokes some thought so that is a good thing.

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet I made my own views clear some time ago but there is not enough space here to accommodate them.

 

Ian T

Well it's the run up to warley show....I'm assisting newbryford with his flat baseboard trainset! Deadmans Lane.....without a station! and judging by responses on this thread I feel like everyone the other side of the barriers are going to be judging us! Every time we run through a set of points...smack two trains together without stopping a scale 6ft before coupling up...rerailing a train that has trundled round all morning then decides to derail a bogie at the fourth coach.....some one slips through a red aspect! ....when we use a wood kebab stick un couple (shunting pole) and every other mechanical and electrical defect that WILL happen!

 

It's a model trainset....use your imagination to blank out the bits you don't like....or catch train to Didcot and visit Pendon!

 

If you wish to judge....don't judge me judge Mick it's his !....I just own the cxxk ups

[Chris M]

48 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Well it's the run up to warley show....I'm assisting newbryford with his flat baseboard trainset! Deadmans Lane.....without a station! and judging by responses on this thread I feel like everyone the other side of the barriers are going to be judging us! Every time we run through a set of points...smack two trains together without stopping a scale 6ft before coupling up...rerailing a train that has trundled round all morning then decides to derail a bogie at the fourth coach.....some one slips through a red aspect! ....when we use a wood kebab stick un couple (shunting pole) and every other mechanical and electrical defect that WILL happen!

 

It's a model trainset....use your imagination to blank out the bits you don't like....or catch train to Didcot and visit Pendon!

 

If you wish to judge....don't judge me judge Mick it's his !....I just own the cxxk ups

Everyone will judge layouts at exhibitions based on what is and isn’t important to them. In many years of exhibiting I can’t recall hearing any really negative comments from visitors. On the other hand I have had a fair few folk look down their noses and quickly walk on. That’s fine, no layout will appeal to everyone. Enjoy the chats with the folk that like your layout and don’t worry about the others. One of the oddest things about exhibiting is the number of visitors who seem to think the exhibitors can’t hear them when they are talking to their mate and commenting on your layout.