Hornby announce TT:120

[Hobby]

4 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

How many times have Hornby gone bankrupt or near as dammit in the last 50 years though?

 

So they should stop all thoughts of trying new markets and concentrate on 00 and nothing else... Another way to go bust i suppose when that market gets saturated and there's no longer any profit in it...

Edited October 13, 2022 by Hobby

[Tom Rose]

On 10/10/2022 at 13:07, tommyliam021 said:

Interesting that the 66, which is the least detailed of the TT releases that they have in 00, is the cheapest. I wonder if they’ve simply shrunk the ex Lima model.

I wondered the same with the 9f, it was difficult to see on the photos so im going to hold my opinions until we see one in the flesh, but it looked closer to the old railroad version than the brand new 00 offering 

[Ravenser]

48 minutes ago, TomE said:

 

Or the limited market size for a smaller scale in the UK has already been fullfilled by N and TT will find itself trying to fill a gap that doesn’t really exist. 
 

N Gauge has seen a total transformation since Bachmann took over the Farish range, pushed on by Dapol’s entry and latterly Revolution Trains, to make it a more attractive alternative to OO in terms of detail, features, reliability and range. If N hasn’t been able to shift it’s market share upward, even with those improvements and in the face of shrinking house sizes, what chance does a railroad level product have with limited range, limited distribution and limited exposure?  

 

Point accepted on total market share, I wasn’t considering the other scales.

 

Tom.

 

Put simply I don't understand why the market  for small-scale model railways in Britain should be so much smaller than in everywhere else - Germany, the US, Sweden, Switzerland Poland, etc etc

 

Britain is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe. The  noose on space is tightening. Surely there should be an increasing demand for smaller scales??

 

I take the point that there's been an N gauge renaissance since 2000. But 9 years in, N gauge was still at only 10% . (perhaps it was only 7-8% in the last years of Poole-era Farish???)  N may have gained a bit of market share since, but still it's way below levels in other markets.

 

In German-speaking markets TT and Z are competing with N for the small-scale buyer. Even then , N has nearly twice the market share in Germany it has here

 

So there is untapped potential for a small scale in Britain. N doesn't quite seem to have cracked it.

 

Z plods along in Germany as essentially a Maerklin niche product. Poole-era Farish shows a scale can function with a single producer even in the face of a limited range and lower quality. So the idea of a niche scale dominated by Hornby is perfectly viable

 

I don't expect TT-120 to get as big as N . But there seems to be a slice of the market that hasn't really got the space to do 4mm but can't accept N.

 

Get even half that target group into TT-120 , along with some working age newcomers , and you are looking at 5-7% market share. More than enough to make this project viable

 

I'm not sure where "Railroad level product" came from . We've only seen a few photos of about 5 items, so assessments of what the product level is are preliminary . How do these models stack up against N gauge equivalents ? That's the question that matters. Saying they aren't up to the level of the best high-fidelity new 4mm RTR isn't relevant. Current N gauge RTR isn't either. You expect less detail in a much smaller scale

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Ravenser

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

 

Priorities I expect. Large express engine sets have more pulling power than the sort of set you suggest. However Hornby have indicated that small tank engines will be coming along in due course and so that sort of set will appear. 

That's the bread and butter starter set for many entrants, picked up in Argos or supermarkets or toy chains.

If the young 'un gets hooked, then the bigger stuff follows.

[jjb1970]

I know a few have already mentioned this, but there's an enormous elephant in the room when people say N gauge is a fringe scale which might represent 10-20% of the market - Japan. Because N struggles to grow or maintain market share in some markets doesn't mean it doesn't thrive elsewhere. The Japanese market is dominated by N, Japanese HO (1/80) is the marginal scale. And model trains have a popularity in Japan that European and American suppliers would dream of. Anecdotally, based what I see in department stores and model shops in Japan children manage with N well enough as plenty of kids are around. 

[Dunsignalling]

Just now, Hobby said:

 

So they should stop all thoughts of trying new markets and concentrate on 00 and nothing else... Another way to go bust i suppose...

They've always done decently well when they've stuck to doing what they do well. 

 

Their record once they step away from that has been somewhat less illustrious.

 

John

[57xx]

On 12/10/2022 at 14:05, Steamport Southport said:

 

I think we might have different definitions of "hardcore". I don't mean it as being enthusiastic.

 

By "hardcore" I think of extreme. People who model in P4 and build etched kits are hardcore. Those that just buy RTR are mainstream. Nothing wrong with either approach.

 

It's like comparing Take That to Napalm Death. One is mainstream, the other is hardcore.

 

 

I hope for Hornby's sake that the foray into TT lasts longer than "You suffer".

[Hobby]

It is, but in an established scale. This is a launch of a new scale, so the larger sets make more of an impact. 

 

As i said before I've no doubt they'll appear but I feel Hornby think that the large sets will sell better initially and I think they are right, you don't, we'll just have to wait and see who's right!

 

(Reply to Melmerby!)

Edited October 13, 2022 by Hobby
Another post made at same time.

[Hobby]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

They've always done decently well when they've stuck to doing what they do well. 

 

Their record once they step away from that has been somewhat less illustrious.

 

5 minutes ago, Hobby said:

So they should stop all thoughts of trying new markets and concentrate on 00 and nothing else... Another way to go bust i suppose when that market gets saturated and there's no longer any profit in it...

 

Sorry, John, I added a bit which was missed in your quote which I hope clarifies my thoughts!

[Ravenser]

22 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

My post duly edited.

 

So, has TT:120 always been essentially a Soviet Bloc/ex-Soviet Bloc, thing and to what extent has it spread beyond that up to now? 

 

It seems to have spread back modestly into the old West Germany, from absolutely nothing to a minor scale.

 

This would be the first major new market

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, Tom Rose said:

I wondered the same with the 9f, it was difficult to see on the photos so im going to hold my opinions until we see one in the flesh, but it looked closer to the old railroad version than the brand new 00 offering 

Looking at the brochure, quite a lot of the illustrations are the usual Photoshopped OO catalogue side views, which aren't terribly informative even for their original audience.

 

Some of the model photos are of OO versions rather than the actual TT:120 items, presumably because the real thing wasn't available for photography in time. 

 

John

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

It is, but in an established scale. This is a launch of a new scale, so the larger sets make more of an impact. 

 

As i said before I've no doubt they'll appear but I feel Hornby think that the large sets will sell better initially and I think they are right, you don't, we'll just have to wait and see who's right!

Unless Hornby changes it's mind there's no chance of Grandad picking up any TT-120 starter set when he buys the Christmas Turkey, new slippers or whatever.

[Geep7]

I, as yet, haven't order anything from the TT range, mainly because:

A: I already have built a small OO shunting layout, which would have been an ideal candidate to try out TT.

B: I've already done the whole change to an additional scale / gauge back in 2020, but this was specifically so I could model Spanish outline in HO.

C: I've been told by SWMBO that I already model enough scales (4mm OO, HO Spanish, HO American, dabble in On30, help with my nephews N gauge....)

[Robin Brasher]

I think that there is an error in the description of the track in the train sets. According to page 824 of the November Railway Modeller 'both sets will be supplied with a second radius (310mm} starter oval.'

 

The curved track in TT8031 Track Pack 2 is described as TT 8004 2nd radius curves and goes inside the starter oval.

 

This probably means that the starter oval has TT8005 third radius curves.

[Ravenser]

10 minutes ago, Tom Rose said:

I wondered the same with the 9f, it was difficult to see on the photos so im going to hold my opinions until we see one in the flesh, but it looked closer to the old railroad version than the brand new 00 offering 

 

Remember that TT-120 is 60% of the scale of OO.

 

It is not sensible to expect the same detail in TT-120 as hi-fidelity cutting edge 4mm. You don't expect an N gauge model to match high-spec OO RTR

 

How will the 9F look - and run - in comparison with an N gauge 9F? That's the key comparison. If the answer is "the TT-120 model is significantly better than what's available in N", then Hornby definitely have something to sell.

 

"Better than N" is the pitch here

 

A key thing with the diesels will be the mechanism.

 

Railroad in OO is stuff with a motor bogie and limited pulling power dependant on traction tyres . A TT-120 Class 66 with centre motor drive and all wheel pick up plus lighting will be significantly higher spec than the Railroad 66 in OO

 

(I can't believe they would go down the motor bogie route in a new small scale)

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

It is not sensible to expect the same detail in TT-120 as hi-fidelity cutting edge 4mm.

 

But the catalogue and website imagery makes out it is. 😎

[D9020 Nimbus]

I'm not sure that the ex-Lima class 66 qualifies as high-fidelity cutting-edge 4mm, though😅

[Hobby]

Re Southern stock in the catalogue it says that in phase 2/3 there will be a British Pullman Electric set, era 3 (Big 4?)...

[britishcolumbian]

8 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

It is not sensible to expect the same detail in TT-120 as hi-fidelity cutting edge 4mm.

If Roco's and Tillig's (newer) TT products are an indicator, the quality should be pretty close to what one would expect from most H0.

[andythenorth]

2 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

If Roco's and Tillig's (newer) TT products are an indicator, the quality should be pretty close to what one would expect from most H0.

The Roco stuff is, if anything, over-detailed for the size.  With a price to match. 🙂

[britishcolumbian]

4 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

The Roco stuff is, if anything, over-detailed for the size.  With a price to match. 🙂

Certainly couldn't be considered cheap, but I was well pleased with what I got for the money when I bought a Roco M62 (which I converted to a North Korean K62, but have since sold on... it lives in Denmark now)

 

[Hroth]

24 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

This probably means that the starter oval has TT8005 third radius curves.

 

The description for the "Easterner" train set on the Hornby website says

 

Quote

What's Inside

1 x Locomotive, 3x Coaches, 1x Transformer, 1x Controller, 5x Leaflets, 1x Rerailer, 12x 3rd Radius Curves, 6x Standard Straight, 1x 6th Radius Curve, 1x Buffer Stop

 

Funnily, it doesn't mention the points for the siding, or the trakmat...

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

55 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

 

Sorry, John, I added a bit which was missed in your quote which I hope clarifies my thoughts!

 

My take on the OO market is that it is nowhere near saturated, I don't think new entrants would be so keen to get involved if it were. However, it has changed, and the market for Hornby's "favourite things" may well be, and others are spotting opportunities that Hornby are missing.

 

From my standpoint, the OO scene looks more dynamic than it has in years, and I have loads of stuff on pre-order. However, the nearest I'm approaching big, green, and named is an Accurascale Manor, and a Jones Goods from Rapido. My current Hornby pre-orders amount to just one loco, and one more I'm thinking about, the least in (my) living memory. 

 

I suspect that, as the younger, smaller fish have been eating more of the available food, Hornby are finding that what's left of their former share of the OO pool is no longer supporting them in the manner to which they are accustomed.    

 

Hornby isn't going to give up on OO any time soon, but they need an alternative income stream to balance out market share they have lost/anticipate losing in that sector.

 

John

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Big James said:

Just signed up fod the TT collectors club. It’s free and might provide some inspiration. But with a lot homes getting smaller I think TT is a good compromise between OO and N gauge. I’ve found myself seriously considering getting the easterner set with a more Mark 1’s and an A3 to accompany it. 
 

Big James

Good on you for supporting them because this real innovation from Hornby does need customer support if it is to succeed.    I do have one or two reservations about the way things might, or might not, go for the company but they needed to innovate to keep a place in the overall market and TT was clearly a direction that they were more than likely to take.

 

However I don't get the bit from them about 'homes getting smaller' for one good reason.  New build British houses started shrinking several decades ago and that is often postulated as part of the reason that N has managed to get a reasonable market share (there are other reasons too).   But in the post decade or so, generally, new builds have shrunk even more - even to the extent that if they come with a garage on some 'ordinary' estate developments you can't even get most cars into it or if you can then you can't open the door to get out.  So while houses, generally have shrunk, that has happened from the starting point of the previous shrinking which helped to make N acceptable.  So logically as houses, generally, shrink even more then a model railway scale would also need to shrink even more whereas TT120 is actually going in the opposite direction from N.  

 

So yes, it is a noticeable shrinking compared with 00 but overall it still seems an odd argument when you consider where house sizes have already got.

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, thetrains said:

Maybe a line should be drawn under this thread, I am losing the will to keep up, the last twenty pages just seem to be going round in circles 'for or against', and a new one started on what peeps would like.

 

I'm not closing it off and there's no real need to let everyone else know.

 

If you don't want to read it you don't have to plus there's a big red 'ignore' button at the top of the page.