Hornby announce TT:120

[Trains4U]

21 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

Off at a tangent...

 

Are sound fitted locos available in N gauge?, just thinking out loud about the available space in a TT model for the chip and speaker(s).  I'm thinking tank locos and small diseasels.

 

Yes, factory fitted diesels (08, 31, 40, 90, 101, 108 and 150 so far I think), and steam (N class, 4MT and a few others) from Farish.     We've fitted sound to farish 24s, 37s, 47, 55s and Dapol 26s, 33s and 50s.  plus farish WDs and duchesses 

[adb968008]

24 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Maybe a good part of this is driven by what they’ve already got detailed digital designs for in 00. Presumably it will be cheaper and quicker to put the shrink ray on those, rather than start designing from scratch.

Synoymous with “Minimum Viable Product” also known as Get Rich Quick.

The problem with these is they get found out, 46 pages of this thread suggests it already has been.

 

Despite protestations of in it to win it, not flash in the pan etc, if the impression given is not one of commitment, then you cant blame your customers for not being committed.

 

I see a few quick win / cant lose items, supported by a few recent OO best sellers in a hotch potch range that doesnt inspire me to think theres something great coming.

 

If the mk2e/f drawings are to hand all well and good, but Hornby doesnt make anything other than an 87 to pull them… as that didnt make the grade, I may end up with a rake of coaches in TT that might never have anything to pull them.. thats not a problem in OO however, which is why they may have sold well.

Tell me again why I might want a rake of TT mk2e/f with nothing accurate to pull them ?  Same goes for the MGR…, the 66, the 50…

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by adb968008

[adb968008]

13 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

It's true they've done that one again, but again in such a small batch that it's instantly sold out.

There might be a clue about manufacturers perception of demand / risk in that..

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

Depends on how many they gave to sell, bearing in mind that they will get sales from existing modellers and collectors it could well be kess than you think.

Apart from the wealthy clan of Hornby completists, though, I wonder how many collectors will buy a load of stuff they already have just because it's a different size.

 

That said, it seems to work for Apple every twelve months or so. 🤡

 

Hornby will get some sales from modellers "having a dabble" and maybe even building a small layout to get a feel for the new scale, in addition to their existing activities. But OO has been around so long that most established modellers are so invested in it that I doubt that many will make a whole-hearted switch.

 

Also, of course, anybody adding a TT:120 layout to their portfolio, is, by definition, not short of space.

 

John

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Trains4U]

The announcement from Heljan is certainly going to upset the applecart.

I have read and heard statements from a number of retailers who have made it clear that they will not stock any british TT from any manufacturer.   And why would they?   not only is it another range that dilutes the market, but the key player is actively working against us.   Why would it be in my interest as a retailer to stock track and accessories only for the customer to buy the shiny expensive bits elsewhere?  what is the incentive?   Why would we support the sale of a competing product, even with a non-committal possible consideration of making it available to trade at some point in the future.

I'm wondering if Heljan, following Monday's announcements, received a slew of cancellations for their TT offerings from retailers.     I hadn't ordered any anyway, I've had maybe two or three people show any interest in it, and none actually prepared to pre-order anything.

That, combined with duplication from Hornby, would really make it obvious that it isn't viable.  The market is speaking...

In all honesty, if I were going to invest in stocking another scale, it would be G, not TT, and nothing anyone has announced has changed that for me so far.
I wonder how many retailers (And there are well over 150 in the UK, despite what people say) think the same way?

 

[AY Mod]

50 minutes ago, thetrains said:

Maybe cos that's I'm 65 and we get shafted.

 

I have signed up for the membership.

 

It's nothing to do with shafting anyone, let alone on the basis of their age so I resent the accusation.

 

I see no transaction for Premium or Gold membership that tallies with your email address but no-one was pushing you to do that anyway.

[britishcolumbian]

15 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

There might be a clue about manufacturers perception of demand / risk in that..

Again and again and again? That is a sensible angle the first two times but consistently?

[TomE]

54 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

Off at a tangent...

 

Are sound fitted locos available in N gauge?, just thinking out loud about the available space in a TT model for the chip and speaker(s).  I'm thinking tank locos and small diseasels.

 

 

Farish have been updating their N Gauge range for some time now to include pre-fitted speakers, and offer sound fitted versions alongside DCC ready models, just like they do in OO. 

You can even get the N Gauge Farish Class 08 with factory fitted sound thanks to a recently upgraded chassis.  

Revolution and Dapol also offer factory fitted sound options as standard on models across their range. 

 

Tom.  

Edited October 13, 2022 by TomE

[Nile]

Some sound fitted N gauge locos (clicky link)

[AY Mod]

🤬

[andythenorth]

11 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Again and again and again? That is a sensible angle the first two times but consistently?

But again and again we keep responding to the 3 or 4 who can't stop grinding the same axe.

 

In another context, it would be classic internet trolling.  They drop the line in, we swim up and bite on it. 

 

However I think for the people grinding their axes, it counts as reasoned debate, or simply helping out those of us who need to be corrected in obvious our mistakes.

 

But if we keep responding, we only have ourselves to blame, so perhaps we should stop? 😉 

 

TT:120 is clearly a divisive issue, maybe it would be better swept under the carpet and not discussed on rmweb?

Edited October 14, 2022 by andythenorth

[adb968008]

22 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Again and again and again? That is a sensible angle the first two times but consistently?

Europe is not the UK.

 

We have different railway companies, none of which are more than a few dozen miles from each other. A loco on the WR could easily end up in Scotland. SNCF locos dont generally turn up in Eastern Poland…

 

A BR 120 built in its 000’s and exported across half of the world sounds great on paper… but if your modelling Polish railways, a Hungarian M62 is just as meaningless to a Polish modeller as it is an BR (WR) Modeller.

As a “foreigner” travelling Europe my optics is different, I collect models of countries Ive been, but my core collection is British. Is there any reason to think Europeans think less nationalistically as I do ? about whats in their country, and maybe just beyond… that inturn sizes demand for those models…. We really dont see many Bulgarian Railways items, maybe there arent that many enthusiasts… when I started collecting PKP in 2002.. my choice was an old Piko articulated coach… and that was it… today nearly every modern prototype is rtr.

 

A manufacturer has to choose, especially in emerging markets, what may sell… a BR120 in DDR may more likely be more popular than a UZD version… so make it in volumes they can risk… if that means several suck it an see batches, why not ?

 

It is clear though HO is popular, your choice of BR120/M62 is spread across several HO manufacturers… TT it is not…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by adb968008

[TomE]

8 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Wow, those 08's are amazing and even make noises on analogue.  How does it all fit.... pixies I guess 😁

 

 

No magic required! 

 

Tom.  

 

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

If space is a problem, you can of course by a HO scale class 66, and its made by our very own Heljan, as well as ESU and Trix…

 

And despite being compatible on OO and coming with a huge assortment of suitable HO rolling stock from Europe… there just is not any interest... and thats without needing to change gauge and sell up.

 

 

 

none of our continental friends even tried to put it into a UK livery, despite the obvious space saving oppourtunities…

 

What difference is 3.5mm HO and 2.54mm TT really going to do ?

 

The space thing is a bit misnoma to me.

 

 

Why would I run an out of scale loco on the layout?

 

My point is simply that for a lot of people - like me - it's not possible to build a layout in 4mm that uses 66s in the space we have.

 

But it is possible in a much smaller scale. 

 

Nevertheless a lot of folk in Central Europe have a strong view on "What difference is 3.5mm HO and 2.54mm TT really going to do ?"

 

Indeed I think you are accidentally arguing that there's no point in N gauge.

 

The actual answer to your question is "a reduction of length of about 4.5 inches on every vehicle" in the kind of modelling where 66s appear. That very rapidly adds up when you are faced with immovable walls at home. If the layout plan goes even 6" over the space you have - it's dead . It's not happening

 

The fact is that a lot of folk are clinging on in 4mm by their fingertips, using every duck and dive and dodge to make some kind of 4mm layout just about possible in the little space they have. (See the boxfile/micro culture for one example.  N does not seem a viable option for such shunting layouts)

 

The question is whether Hornby can convince sufficient people that they can get a better model in a small space with TT-120 than they can with N . Or that making your own is much more practical in 1:120 as opposed to 1:148

 

[Ravenser]

49 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Synoymous with “Minimum Viable Product” also known as Get Rich Quick.

The problem with these is they get found out, 46 pages of this thread suggests it already has been.

 

Despite protestations of in it to win it, not flash in the pan etc, if the impression given is not one of commitment, then you cant blame your customers for not being committed.

 

I see a few quick win / cant lose items, supported by a few recent OO best sellers in a hotch potch range that doesnt inspire me to think theres something great coming.

 

If the mk2e/f drawings are to hand all well and good, but Hornby doesnt make anything other than an 87 to pull them… as that didnt make the grade, I may end up with a rake of coaches in TT that might never have anything to pull them.. thats not a problem in OO however, which is why they may have sold well.

Tell me again why I might want a rake of TT mk2e/f with nothing accurate to pull them ?  Same goes for the MGR…, the 66, the 50…

 

 

 

Are you saying the WR never got aircon Mk2s ? ?

 

Those are clearly aimed at the 50 (and the 37 and 47 to come)

[TomE]

2 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Speaker in the cab?  Top stuff!

 

Speaker in the bonnet end, no intrusion into the cab at all. 

 

Tom. 

[Nearholmer]

1 minute ago, Tim Dubya said:

Speaker in the cab?  Top stuff!

The thing that has amazed me about diesel loco sound in N is how good it is. I haven’t heard the 08, which is a particularly difficult sound to get anything like right, but I heard a 25 on a layout at an exhibition and it was entirely convincing, although I think that was an installation made by the owner rather than factory.

 

My working assumption is that TT will be to good modern quality, and available with all mod cons; if it isn’t,  it will be far less appealing.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

Are you saying the WR never got aircon Mk2s ? ?

 

Those are clearly aimed at the 50 (and the 37 and 47 to come)

 

To come is not here now.

 

Do I buy the mk2’s and just look at them ?

 

for how long ?

A3/A4 with coaches sure.. makes sense.

The rest of it.. i’m not feeling it… 

Yes a Blue / 50007 with air cons may work… not so sure about a GBRF class 50…

 

Now lets get real… modern image to some is 1968-1994.. it is not 1968 - 2022.. thats demeaning to todays modellers… a GBRF 50 is on its lonesome.. with a bunch of class 66’s for company… but to man on the street.. that is modern image… 1968-1994 is modern history.

 

This isnt just a critiscm of TT, it applies to OO as well… but in OO other players are seeing that and acting upon it.

 

it was amazing to ride on mk2 aircons last month on scheduled passenger trains, never again did I think that was going to be possible… but I know to some mindsets, this is “modern image”.. it is not, its history, museum pieces,  plus it was an 86 on the front, not a GBRF class 50.

 

Does that mean “modern image” modellers of today, have to like what there given an lump it in TT, as that seems to be the suggestion, and sadly I think they wont lump it, they will just ignore it… unless they are only interested in a layout of make believe and railtours… even then theres much more choice in OO.

 

from what i’m seeing, It just isnt compelling. 

 

Maybe I wasnt clear… 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by adb968008

[Hobby]

53 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

The problem with these is they get found out, 46 pages of this thread suggests it already has been.

 

It suggests nothing of the kind.

 

What it does prove, though,  is despite protestations to the contrary  there is a hard-core of forum members who hope it will fail, for various reasons, and come up their reasons which have been repeated and debunked every few pages. Hence 46+ pages!

 

As we all know is that we simply don't know how it will pan out, that's the only definite!!

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

But, here I am, thinking of all the people I know who don't have model railways, including the smattering who are a bit 'railway minded', parents of my children's peers, friends, neighbours, the rest of my family, and I'm trying to get my head round how this particular thing will flip the switch from "not model railway" to "model railway", and I just don't see it happening to any significant extent.

 

Interesting point

 

My kids are grown up and (nearly) away, lad had his own model railway set up years ago, he's now 27 and his work takes him around the globe, twin girls now 22, finish Uni next year, so no interest there. At least my lad has told me to keep his railway stuff  boxed in the loft for the future.

 

I have asked a couple of (non modelling) mates if their grandchildren are interested - I have some surplus OO stuff, mainly from years ago. I'd gladly give them some to get them started - but no dice there. Interestingly I have tried giving away my kids old DVD's, VHS, CD's etc - nobody interested, even charity shops. I binned a load last week. One mate said his daughters / grandkids house (as most seemingly are these days) don't have CD / DVD / etc etc players anymore, it's all Netflix etc over the internet etc.

 

Times are a changing, and not just for model trains.

 

Brit15

 

[Hobby]

8 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

It's all mostly hypothetical at the moment anyway, 

 

 

And there's the reason for 46, sorry, 48, pages!

Edited October 13, 2022 by Hobby

[Trains4U]

What is not hypothetical is the genuine grievance of the retail trade - note that this latest episode compounds three years worth of other unpleasant issues.
It also isn't hypothetical that there is next to no interest to date in the previous TT announcements from Heljan, Gaugemaster and Peco.

This is going to be a very tough hill to climb for Hornby, and they can't count on the retailers bailing them out this time (As we have before - If anyone from Hornby does read this, PLEASE look up your not-very-secretly-codenamed "Wedding Show" on the 6th December 2016) - The goodwill evaporated many moons ago...

[andyman7]

4 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

How many times have Hornby gone bankrupt or near as dammit in the last 50 years though?

 

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

They do seem to have been somewhat "accident prone" don't they?

 

Hope this isn't the next pitfall.

 

 

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

So they should stop all thoughts of trying new markets and concentrate on 00 and nothing else... Another way to go bust i suppose when that market gets saturated and there's no longer any profit in it...

Whatever Hornby's issues with individual products, the fact is that, pretty much uniquely for a British toy/hobby company, Hornby have never gone bust. Even in 1971 (when Lines Brothers called in the receivers) and in 1981 (when Dunbee-Combex-Marx went into administration) the Margate based business (Rovex until 1981; Hornby Hobbies thereafter) was not the cause and stayed in business. 

 

Indeed, leave aside the toy/hobby business - how many other British manufacturing companies in any sector can you say that about?

Edited October 13, 2022 by andyman7

[APOLLO]

One "point".

 

I really hope that Hornby have engineered their loco pickups and (dead frog ?) pointwork so ALL their locos & stock will run through ALL their trackwork in both directions without any hint of stalling / derailing.

 

It's game over if there are problems here.

 

Brit15

[sncf231e]

The Hornby TT Brochure mentions:

For example, the ‘00’ equivalent in Europe and the US is H0 (1:86), while European and US ‘N’ gauge is 1:160, but the UK ‘N’ gauge is 1:148.

 

As far as I know H0 is 1:87, so I wonder whether Hornby TT:120 will in reality be 1:119 😉

 

Maybe some of the Hornby people shoud read: http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/

 

Regards

Fred