Hornby announce TT:120

[andrewshimmin]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

If they did get added to a train they would normally end up at the rear, so often out of camera shot.

 

A good guide to coach formations is in the Comet kit instructions for the relevant vehicle. Click on the bit that says "Download instruction sheet"

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/m56ak/

 

Sample formations

 

Inverness-Kyle 1949 POS/BG/BG/TK/CK/CK/TK/BG

The Irish Mail 1949 BG/SLT/SLT/TK/TK/TO/TO/TO/FO/FK/BG/BG/BG

St Pancras-Glasgow 1955 BG/BG/BTK/TK/TK/SLT/SLF/SLF/CK/BG

 

You'll notice they are sleeper and postal trains.

 

 

Jason

Thanks Jason

[PaulRhB]

21 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

  However this could make for an opening for further suppliers!

Well after Hornby duplicating Heljans 31 announcement and them saying we aren’t playing this silly game Hornby might be left to go it alone if any loco is likely to get gazumped. 
As has been mentioned before several shops have said we won’t bother stocking the Peco range as we have nothing to go with it although I note a few larger stores are. 
 

On 05/01/2023 at 18:30, frobisher said:

 

But "sharing" a chassis is pretty pointless these days, 

 

It would also go against all the marketing of correct scale combinations 😉

 

Following on from that, if TT is a success then would correct combinations of HO be next on their list? 😇

Edited January 7, 2023 by PaulRhB

[JohnR]

15 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

 

What all this added up to in TT-3's first ten months was most of the dealers and model shops trumpeting TT in their advertising (and even offering to part exchange 00 items for it) but, apart from track,  offering very few actual operating products beyond those based on Tri-ang's original release at the Toyfair in February 1957 of a single loco, two coaches, a small range of wagons using the same chassis and a goods brake.  What isn't clear is how available those products from Tri-ang actually were in the first few months.

 

I

 

I think thats the big question. Trian announced TT in March, but when did items actually start to arrive? Shops advertising TT stuff could simply be announcing what they had ordered from Margate, not what they had actually received (indeed, they probably wouldn't want to wait for items to arrive before advertising them, given lead times, etc). 

[britishcolumbian]

19 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Well after Hornby duplicating Heljans 31 announcement

Should they not have announced something they've already been working on? If Heljan had half a brain they'd have continued with it and make sure theirs is better. But no. They thought that they had an open field to play in because nobody else had announced any locomotives in TT, so they made a halfassed announcement of a few CAD images of the 31 and a few "maybe we'll do these too". When Hornby revealed themselves - and how far along they already are! - Heljan cancelled everything with relief that they'd not have to follow through. If they had ever had any serious intention of getting into 1:120 they'd have got into the far bigger Continental market years ago.

[JohnR]

9 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Should they not have announced something they've already been working on? If Heljan had half a brain they'd have continued with it and make sure theirs is better. But no. They thought that they had an open field to play in because nobody else had announced any locomotives in TT, so they made a halfassed announcement of a few CAD images of the 31 and a few "maybe we'll do these too". When Hornby revealed themselves - and how far along they already are! - Heljan cancelled everything with relief that they'd not have to follow through. If they had ever had any serious intention of getting into 1:120 they'd have got into the far bigger Continental market years ago.

 

I'm surprised Heljan haven't announced a 25 in TT:120. It would be a useful loco, they already have research and CAD, and its not on Hornby's list. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by JohnR

[PaulRhB]

25 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Should they not have announced something they've already been working on?

1. Apart from a line in the proposed models column what have Hornby shown?, no 3D prints or CAD, but Heljan have seen Hornby jump them up the list to beat others with the 91 and Terrier so as their statement below decided the numbers don’t add up if you have the possibility of Hornby repeating the same tactic. They bowed out with a meaningful reference in their statement 

“We were gratified to see that our initial trio of locomotive choices for TT was so ‘on the money’ that all three also appeared in the Hornby range. C’est la vie.“

 

25 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

 

If Heljan had half a brain they'd have continued with it and make sure theirs is better. But no. They thought that they had an open field to play in because nobody else had announced any locomotives in TT,

 

“Such duplication in a new and, so far, unknown market produces no winners, only losers.” 

They take risks they deem worth it like leading into rtr 009 with Peco, note the cooperation bit, and haven’t moaned about Bachmann or Modelrail’s projects because they complement rather than duplicate. Someone has to decide go or not and they’ve just said not worth it to us and they have a successful O gauge growing range too. 

 

25 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

so they made a halfassed announcement of a few CAD images of the 31

 

Half assed CAD? 😆 I think you need to have a go knocking up images like that 😉

 

 

25 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

and a few "maybe we'll do these too". When Hornby revealed themselves - and how far along they already are! - Heljan cancelled everything with relief that they'd not have to follow through. If they had ever had any serious intention of getting into 1:120 they'd have got into the far bigger Continental market years ago.

 

Heljan’s UK arm might see a market that they think is adequately catered for elsewhere. 
 

Hornby got what they wanted by scaring Heljan off now it’s over to them to deliver  alone as Accurascale have said no ta at present. Bachmann could lob in a it’ll be here next week curveball but that’s the first we will know about it and if AC change their mind then hey ho the others have just decided if Hornby wants to play like that let them take all the risk. 
😉

 

I’ve bought my set and have another loco on order so I’m not anti TT, I just think it’s a strange choice to say we think we can go it alone without the traditional shops and others promoting it. Hornby have had several other big ideas that didn’t take off, live steam for one, and they surely had similar appeal to collectors and novelty buyers plus crossover to the model fraternity. 
 

[Jeff Smith]

As I mentioned before, Hornby has played its hand for the next couple of years, so unless it is witholding information deliberately, other players may decide on an accelerated programme to get a couple of locos or/and some goods stock out.....  The GWR and Southern seem to need some attention particularly as Peco has a range of GWR building kits, and Hornby has declared some future ready made GWR buildings....   A 14xx and Autocoach would be nice....

[D9020 Nimbus]

I think Heljan were brought in by Peco to provide a loco, in the way they were for 009; clearly, Peco's other 009 partner (Kato) wouldn't be interested. I note that Peco have gone very quiet on the TT:120 wagon front, preferring to stress their continued commitment to N gauge and announcing further re-tooled wagons for that scale, with no sign of their 7-plank wagon arriving. I expect Hornby’s decision to make the range online only has deterred other manufacturers on the basis that model shops wouldn't be interested.

 

I expect, if Hornby hadn't gotten involved at this time, that Heljan would've delivered the loco and gone on to gradually build a range of (mostly) diesel locos. I notice a big difference between Hornby’s and Heljan's approaches, though—Heljan concentrates on useful locos while Hornby prioritises the glamour locos—apart from the 08 shunter.

 

There's a contrast with Triang's approach in the 1950s with TT where they started out with a useful loco in the "Jinty". Farish started their N gauge range with 0-6-0Ts (neither of which have been offered to modern standards) and British Minitrix the class 27.

[britishcolumbian]

2 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Half assed CAD? 😆 I think you need to have a go knocking up images like that

 Please re-read what I wrote more closely. Word order matters.

 

Although I did pre-order a Heljan 31 as soon as it was announced, I *was* rather surprised, as Heljan had never in years expressed any interest in the scale at all, even saying so in an email some years ago. They could have taken a segment of the German market with north German/Danish buildings and cross-border equipment.

 

So I *was* surprised by Heljan, but Hornby's announcement didn't surprise me at all - in fact, I predicted it:

Unless Heljan reappear sometime with a new announcement of a product in 1:120, I will remain convinced that they were actually grateful to not have to follow through on their announcements and I will remain doubtful that they have any intention of going near 1:120 ever again. But it's absolutely no loss.

[frobisher]

57 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

I'm surprised Heljan haven't announced a 25 in TT:120. It would be a useful loco, they already have research and CAD, and its not on Hornby's list. 

 

A cynic would say at least not yet...

 

I suspect Heljan are waiting to at least see some proper evidence of Hornby's 31 before potentially leaping in again so they'll know how long it's going to take Hornby to have been "already developing" items.

[Robin Brasher]

I expect Hornby will come round to the Southern after they have made the GWR models.  Meanwhile the Tri-ang TT models ran very well on the Hornby TT:120 track as you can see in this picture of 'Clan Line' with some maroon coaches. Our Peco TT:120 track is not wired up yet but the rolling stock ran on that as well. I doubt if they will run through the points but we are going to hand build some points for the Tri-ang rolling stock. 

 

As you can imagine the traders were not very enthusiastic about Hornby's venture into TT:120.

[andrewshimmin]

7 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Andrew,

 

Mostly used in parcels / NPCCS trains. A train of milk tankers would very often have one as accommodation for the guard.

 

Also added to passenger rakes when additional mail accommodation was needed.

 

John Isherwood.

 

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

If they did get added to a train they would normally end up at the rear, so often out of camera shot.

 

A good guide to coach formations is in the Comet kit instructions for the relevant vehicle. Click on the bit that says "Download instruction sheet"

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/m56ak/

 

Sample formations

 

Inverness-Kyle 1949 POS/BG/BG/TK/CK/CK/TK/BG

The Irish Mail 1949 BG/SLT/SLT/TK/TK/TO/TO/TO/FO/FK/BG/BG/BG

St Pancras-Glasgow 1955 BG/BG/BTK/TK/TK/SLT/SLF/SLF/CK/BG

 

You'll notice they are sleeper and postal trains.

 

 

Jason

 

Thanks both, I've now found various photos of them on e.g. the Irish Mail as suggested.

[PaulRhB]

36 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Please re-read what I wrote more closely. Word order matters.

 

36 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

”so they made a halfassed announcement of a few CAD images ”

I read it and I still think spending the time to do CAD and announcing with CAD images isn’t half assed at all as it shows time has been spent on it. 
Hornby have also clearly spent time on other items with the CAD and 3D prints but their presentation, sitting behind a table and then holding prints out of focus in front of the camera is about as half assed as you can get! 😆
They want to watch the visual presentation cutaways to proper studio photos Bachmann use although to be honest Hornby’s Mike is a more natural speaker on camera than most of the other manufacturers choices. 
 

 

46 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

I will remain convinced that they were actually grateful to not have to follow through on their announcements

That’s fine as it’s a personal view but I personally also think highly unlikely once you’ve gone through all the process of deciding to commit time to CAD. The financial risk of duplicates is a far more likely driver that tipped the decision back in my experience of talking to others. Cavalex knew they could do the 91 but they saw retailers offering the competition pre orders and it surely pushed their forecasts into too high a risk.
Once the current economic situation improves they might be prepared to take bigger risks but currently I think it’s a sensible move with Hornby’s recent antics in OO splitting the customer pool. 
 

[britishcolumbian]

30 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

That’s fine as it’s a personal view but I personally also think highly unlikely once you’ve gone through all the process of deciding to commit time to CAD. The financial risk of duplicates is a far more likely driver that tipped the decision back in my experience of talking to others. Cavalex knew they could do the 91 but they saw retailers offering the competition pre orders and it surely pushed their forecasts into too high a risk.
Once the current economic situation improves they might be prepared to take bigger risks but currently I think it’s a sensible move with Hornby’s recent antics in OO splitting the customer pool. 

Okay, I understand what you're saying. Valid points, though I'm still not convinced that Heljan were ever solidly committed, or that they'll ever look at TT again (as I've said, if they had ever had any serious interest in the scale, they'd have joined in long ago - another manufacturer of Continental structures would be very welcome). But in the end it makes me no never mind, if they do, cool, if they don't, no loss.

[jonnyuk]

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

As I mentioned before, Hornby has played its hand for the next couple of years, so unless it is witholding information deliberately, other players may decide on an accelerated programme to get a couple of locos or/and some goods stock out.....  The GWR and Southern seem to need some attention particularly as Peco has a range of GWR building kits, and Hornby has declared some future ready made GWR buildings....   A 14xx and Autocoach would be nice....

I agree, if Heljan was serious about TT there are plenty of other stuff make, which Heljan already do in OO.  Hornby has shown their hand on what they believe will be the best sellers, as OO has shown though, items you would think won’t sell or too left field cleary do sell, let’s not forget the industrial scene, it’s took off big time in OO, i nice TT industrial layout would be the perfect size.

[Les1952]

Spotted on one of the Facebook forums (and checked with a quick look at the site before posting here....)

 

The Scotsman train set has disappeared from the website.   Unless it is an error does this mean they've sold the lot?  Bodes well if they have.

 

There are some additions to the individual track pieces that are now available rather than pre-order as well, so stuff is arriving even if it isn't always the stuff we want now....

 

Les

Edited January 7, 2023 by Les1952
typos...

[Hobby]

4 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

As you can imagine the traders were not very enthusiastic about Hornby's venture into TT:120.

 

I'm not so sure it's quite as clear cut as that if you mean that they were not given the chance to stock it, your sentance can be read different ways! Very early in the thread a couple said something similar but when asked if they would have stocked it said it was a big risk. Once it's established I can see traders getting stock from Hornby but at the moment it's Hornby that are taking the risks  probably saving the traders of the worry and financial risk.

[jonnyuk]

the couple of traders i have spoken to at shows have said Hornby have saved them from them selves, read into that what you will

[Robin Brasher]

The traders at our meeting at Winterborne Kingston were not enthusiastic about our TT:120 layout. I was not referring to traders throughout the Country.

 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

9 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

The traders at our meeting at Winterborne Kingston were not enthusiastic about our TT:120 layout. I was not referring to traders throughout the Country.

 

 

Was that a meeting of TT3 modellers? 

[britishcolumbian]

10 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

The traders at our meeting at Winterborne Kingston were not enthusiastic about our TT:120 layout. I was not referring to traders throughout the Country.

 

At our first few setups here in Vancouver I did notice a lot of quiet snickering and dismissive attitudes... well eventually that did pass and we reached a point a few years ago (not long before covid) that we won an award at the biggest Vancouver show (either best of show or people's choice, I don't recall).

 

Let them snicker and dismiss. TT is here to stay.

[Hobby]

24 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

The traders at our meeting at Winterborne Kingston were not enthusiastic about our TT:120 layout. 

 

Did they say why? Also what sort of traders were they, exhibition types or bricks and mortar?

[JohnR]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Did they say why? Also what sort of traders were they, exhibition types or bricks and mortar?

 

I'm not sure a meeting in a village with a population of 643 would have attracted a representative cross-section of the model trade. 

[natterjack]

Something that seems to be missing from a l;ot of thinking about the future of TT120 is the increasing availability and fidelity of 3D printing and all that entails with electronic communications; such as this one.

 

For example, I have a least four thoroughly researched loco/train designs which could be set up for 3D production in a matter of weeks and none of which is likely to see  'commercial. light of day any time soon. The size of TT120 suggests a bright future for personal and cottage industry production not too distinct from that which supported 7mm fine scale for many years.

 

Just as with 7mm a major key to a flourishing 'DIY' sector will be the availability of mechanisms and wheels- on the latter 3D could also be the answer with only a range of metal tyres and axles being the real necessities.

 

What I am suggesting here is that the traditional supply chains for 'off the shelf' railway modelling' may well look very different within a very few years from now and that the size of TT120 lends itself to such thinking.

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I'm not sure a meeting in a village with a population of 643 would have attracted a representative cross-section of the model trade. 

 

He said traders so I thought it was a meeting of model railway enthusiasts rather than villagers! ;)