Hornby announce TT:120

[andrewshimmin]

4 hours ago, Michanglais said:

 

Thanks for the info.

 

It'll be interesting to see what Hornby produce, then. The image (I don't know if it's an OO placeholder or whether the number is what will be produced - I'm kind of new to more 'recent' Hornby - haven't modelled the UK scene for at least 20 years... god, I'm old...) shows 43062 with 'Guard' clearly printed on the door and (I think) fitted with exhaust deflectors (I'm no expert in this matter, but aren't they the black 'lumps' on the roof, slightly overlapping onto the yellow?). 

 

Would this indicate a modified exhaust deflector unit with the wording 'Guard' left in place? Would that place it at a very specific period?

 

All conjecture of course because there's no indication of the 'final' running number in the item description... 

 

Fully prepared to be corrected due to my lack of knowledge in this area!

 

 

 

The pictures in the catalogue and online currently are photomontages not the real products.

[andrewshimmin]

3 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

It looks like Hornby have gone to the trouble of putting a Guard's compartment in the Inter City version of the High Speed Train and I think that this train is more suitable for a smaller gauge than 00 due to its size.

 

Turning to Simon Kohler's point about the costs of producing 00 gauge locomotives being the same as TT gauge locomotives I wonder why some of the TT gauge locomotives are cheaper.

 

The 00 gauge City of London costs £241.99 whereas the TT gauge Duchess of Atholl is £145.99 &

The 00 gauge Golden Fleece costs £217,99 whereas the TT gauge Silver King is £145.99

 

That's not quite what they said. People were complaining that the TT stuff is too expensive. They explained that their fixed costs (motor, labour, transportation) are about the same whereas the only variable costs (quantity of material) is negligible. Hence why the (detailed) TT locos are similar in price to the (non detailed) OO. They are in fact cheaper than the detailed OO as you have pointed out.

Simon has elsewhere (and in correspondence with me) talked about keeping the costs affordable for the average family getting into model railways. That's the whole point and target for TT, not modellers as such. As such, I think it would be completely self sabotaging to raise prices *of the entry level models* later, and personally I don't think they will.

Of course Hornby (or other manufacturers) may produce *premium* models in TT:120 in future which are more expensive.

[HSB]

8 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

I forgot to say that in the YouTube video Hornby also said other sets will be coming - they mentioned a green 08 with some wagons.

I would be very tempted by an 08 IF they were going to do one with sound. The argument that it's too small for a sound chip and a speaker is nonsense when Graham Farish already do one in N!

Edited January 20, 2023 by HSB

[britishcolumbian]

14 hours ago, Porfuera said:

SK said that they would consider doing a green 08 if there was sufficient demand

I asked him specifically about that in an email focussed on something else, he said they're certainly planning one but likely not this year.

[Ravenser]

It's not a Hornby product, but as this seems to be the main TT:120 thread active, I'm adding a cross-reference post here:

 

The Peco TT:120 7 plk wooden mineral is now being advertised in Railway Modeller, along with extra TT120 buildings

 

As this doesn't seem to have been picked up on RMWeb , I've added a thread here: 7plk minerals from Peco, in the Peco section of the forum

[VOYAGERBOI]

I thought it was time my TT:120 track had a more permanent home. This small baseboard once displayed a simple OO layout in a model railway shop window. (Anyone remember Model Railways (New Milton) on the A337 in Hampshire?)

Admittedly this board won’t offer much scope for anything other than two train operation and a little shunting, but that’s considerably more than OO could offer in the same space and to be honest it’s a fun project to see if I want to go further with TT:120.

My track is laid upon cork and pinned into place using PECO track pins/nails ST.280.

The Hornby TT fishplates are not very forgiving if you accidentally damage them, so having a pack of spares is advisable. (TT 8036).

 

 

 

[Ravenser]

Good to see a layout starting to emerge

[Pete the Elaner]

On 20/01/2023 at 11:15, andrewshimmin said:

 

You can buy Hornby track pieces just not the packs at the moment. The packs come with a slight saving and are much vaunted in the Hornby literature and advertising - but not available.

Peco track is available as you say but not the same geometry as Hornby so would rather stick to one system for simplicity. The Hornby points seem to work better for old Triang TT stock (for mine, anyway).

 

Hornby have missed a very easy & significant trick with the track anyway.

Many OO modellers buy Peco track because it looks better: Streamline geometry looks smoother, their flexi track looks better & some of their range (HST, 50 & 66) looks much more at home on concrete sleeper track, which is not in Peco's range yet (although I am sure it will be soon). Hornby could have beaten them to this.

While I can understand them retaining their OO range, this was supposed to be a new start. They could have made reasonable looking track at little extra cost than just scaling down their OO range.

Their range may appeal to those new to the hobby wanting to 'buy Hornby' but they already had this market. Those who want to move on from that will have to buy elsewhere. This is a market they could easily have captured if they could be bothered.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Hornby have missed a very easy & significant trick with the track anyway.

Many OO modellers buy Peco track because it looks better: Streamline geometry looks smoother, their flexi track looks better & some of their range (HST, 50 & 66) looks much more at home on concrete sleeper track, which is not in Peco's range yet (although I am sure it will be soon). Hornby could have beaten them to this.

While I can understand them retaining their OO range, this was supposed to be a new start. They could have made reasonable looking track at little extra cost than just scaling down their OO range.

Their range may appeal to those new to the hobby wanting to 'buy Hornby' but they already had this market. Those who want to move on from that will have to buy elsewhere. This is a market they could easily have captured if they could be bothered.

 

 

Hornby have to stay compatible with what Tillig do on the Continent - the bigger market for this track is going to be in Mittel Europa , to support the Arnold range. Tillig is the dominant TT track

 

Therefore Hornby are locked into Tillig geometry and code 80 to match Tillig

[natterjack]

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

concrete sleeper track

I too am  a little surprised by how long it is taking for this to appear, especially if Hornby is looking at future TT120  modellers likely to be focused on the more recent eras of rail transport.

[Michanglais]

5 hours ago, natterjack said:

I too am  a little surprised by how long it is taking for this to appear, especially if Hornby is looking at future TT120  modellers likely to be focused on the more recent eras of rail transport.

 

Tillig do offer concrete-sleepered, pre-ballasted, snap track (if that's your thing - I use it because I've got nowhere for a permanent layout and even a temporary set-up gets in the way at times, it's so easy and quick to build a quick layout). 

 

But I understand that may not be for the 'serious' modeller, tho it can be made to look decent if weathered, etc. Some US modellers swear by Kato Unitrack (which the Tillig design is identical to) and if ballast is laid between/around the track pieces, it can look quite respectable. Could do as an interim until one of the manufacturers come up with unballasted concrete-sleepered track?

[Hobby]

What's the phrase? "They can't do everything at once!" Yet still some people think they can... ;)

[andrewshimmin]

6 hours ago, natterjack said:

I too am  a little surprised by how long it is taking for this to appear, especially if Hornby is looking at future TT120  modellers likely to be focused on the more recent eras of rail transport.

 

As far as I can tell there's absolutely no sign that future modellers are more interested in modern eras rather than steam.

I also think the percentage of actual plus potential customers who care about their sleepers being concrete or wood (or having visible reinforcement) is very small.

I very much doubt it makes sense for Hornby to prioritise those things in the first few years. Much better concentrate on getting a good, compatible, fun range out there, so that every customer has an initial purchase (set or track/loco/stock) and a couple of follow up purchases each year (more track, loco, stock) to keep the revenue and the interest going.

 

[andrewshimmin]

Don't forget also that it's actually in Hornby's interest for other suppliers to come into the scale creating products slightly outside the core Hornby remit: premium track, additional stock which isn't worth big production runs, more scenic items. It creates an ecosystem in the scale which makes it more viable, keeps people modelling in the scale, and do keeps them primed for whatever Hornby release. Win win, unless they directly compete on core products.

 

[natterjack]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

What's the phrase? "They can't do everything at once!" Yet still some people think they can... ;)

Its been a long time a coming in O!

[Jeff Smith]

I've heard or read somewhere that a significant number of Hornby OO customers only buy Hornby track and that track sales are a big part of it's bottom line.  Also, as has been discussed elsewhere, many people don't actually notice track type as long as the trains stay on it!

[natterjack]

3 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

As far as I can tell there's absolutely no sign that future modellers are more interested in modern eras rather than steam.

Looking at the main ranges of Heljan in O,  Accurascale in OO, Piko inTT120 and Kato in N, their mainstays are definitely post steam. Suggests a market trend to me.

[JohnR]

37 minutes ago, natterjack said:

Looking at the main ranges of Heljan in O,  Accurascale in OO, Piko inTT120 and Kato in N, their mainstays are definitely post steam. Suggests a market trend to me.

 

I would suggest that those are very much niche markets. 

[natterjack]

23 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I would suggest that those are very much niche markets. 

I might have agreed with you but for the regular sell out productions of Accurascale modern vehicles in O,  and Piko ICE3 add on packs are like hens teeth in TT120.

 

Perhaps there is a broader picture?

[JohnR]

17 minutes ago, natterjack said:

I might have agreed with you but for the regular sell out productions of Accurascale modern vehicles in O,  and Piko ICE3 add on packs are like hens teeth in TT120.

 

Perhaps there is a broader picture?

 

I am talking niche relative to the whole market for model railways. 

[natterjack]

6 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I am talking niche relative to the whole market for model railways

Then that term can be applied to just about every other aspect of the hobby, be it era, company, scale, gauge or whatever.

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, natterjack said:

Piko inTT120

Different universe. The German market in TT scale is already very well catered for; most of the important types have been done - by Tillig for types with broad demand, by small-scale manufacturers for the more niche units. The bread and butter of TT for Continental manufacturers is East German outline, and at the moment one can model just about anything that ran in the DDR - even one-off diesel railcar prototypes have been released in model form. For a long time Tillig (the dominant manufacturer) paid only marginal attention to West German subjects, and for every new model of a contemporary unit they released 2-3 DDR models. Piko simply saw a niche that wasn't being served and leapt at it. But don't forget, their range of steam is reasonable too, and going for types that have appeal outside (East) Germany (e.g. the first RTR steam locomotive lettered for the Hungarian State Railways).

[Pete the Elaner]

8 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

Don't forget also that it's actually in Hornby's interest for other suppliers to come into the scale creating products slightly outside the core Hornby remit: premium track, additional stock which isn't worth big production runs, more scenic items. It creates an ecosystem in the scale which makes it more viable, keeps people modelling in the scale, and do keeps them primed for whatever Hornby release. Win win, unless they directly compete on core products.

 

 

Hornby don't have this attitude. They consider themselves as a supplier who makes everything so you should buy only their products.

This comes from a discussion a friend had with them about their back to backs being inconsistent. Their answer was "well buy our track then".

[Pete the Elaner]

4 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I would suggest that those are very much niche markets. 

 

D&E, very much niche markets?

Steam does not seem to be overwhelmingly more popular than D&E at exhibitions or in shops...unless you look only at the Hornby section.

[Porfuera]

47 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Hornby don't have this attitude. They consider themselves as a supplier who makes everything so you should buy only their products.

This comes from a discussion a friend had with them about their back to backs being inconsistent. Their answer was "well buy our track then".

 

This isn't what SK said in one of the TT Talk videos - Hornby have talked with Peco and other manufacturers about TT:120 and other things, although obviously they are not able to discuss and agree things like who makes what because that would be contrary to competition laws, which he also mentioned.

 

I got the impression that he didn't seem unhappy about it - quite the reverse.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Porfuera