Hornby announce TT:120

[Ravenser]

7 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that if the demographic is an as yet untapped market of "new" modellers with limited space it might be an idea to produce a more entry level set with R1 curves and 08 and say three wagons? 

 

I have checked the dimensions of the TT120 08 and at about 85cms long, it and a few wagons on a simple small oval with siding would seem to fit the smaller home concept far better than an A4 three coaches and a large oval using R3 track....

 

Roy

 

It seems there is no radius 1 in TT.....

 

Hornby -Arnold state a minimum radius of 310mm = R2 for all their models. That seems to be the absolute floor Hornby are working to.

 

The 08 + some wagons is next off the runway I believe, and green is promised as a later release. No doubt blue/grey Mk 1s will happen in due course

 

I'm looking forward to the first TT 08 repainted in black with cycling lion😜

 

[frobisher]

7 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

I think you're thinking like railway modellers and people who know something about railways - you need to think more like someone who will go "that Pullman with the lights looks pretty, that will look nice behind my red Class 66" (assuming they actually know the names of what they're buying).

 

No, not really.  Even to most modeller's you'd struggle to tell 2Es and 2Fs apart at a casual glance.  But these are two near identical looking MK2 aircons in the first release and in the same liveries.  They will be bought interchangeably by Joe Public so why make BOTH at the same time when you could have tooled up another set of coaches.

 

 

 

[natterjack]

3 minutes ago, frobisher said:

But these are two near identical looking MK2 aircons in the first release

Isn't this simply a case of maximising options with tool production? Makes sense to me.

[Porfuera]

7 minutes ago, frobisher said:

No, not really.  Even to most modeller's you'd struggle to tell 2Es and 2Fs apart at a casual glance.  But these are two near identical looking MK2 aircons in the first release and in the same liveries.  They will be bought interchangeably by Joe Public so why make BOTH at the same time when you could have tooled up another set of coaches.

 

And I don't know the difference either but maybe it was a quick win with very little change in the CAD and with almost the same tooling whereas a whole new coach would take much longer?

Edited February 14, 2023 by Porfuera

[Porfuera]

20 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

It seems there is no radius 1 in TT.....

 

Isn't this R1?

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/curve-1st-radius-tt8003

 

Also Track Pack 5.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Porfuera

[frobisher]

6 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

And I don't know the difference either but maybe it was a quick win with very little change in the CAD and with almost the same tooling whereas a whole new coach would take much longer?

 

But for a launch range, you don't need that kind of duplication to be honest, and it takes a production slot for something else providing more variety in the range.  It's a case of pick one for launch, not both.  Unless they are horribly behind with the other promised coaches and needed to get something, anything produced... It's quite bone headed by Hornby to be honest.

[frobisher]

16 minutes ago, natterjack said:

Isn't this simply a case of maximising options with tool production? Makes sense to me.

 

So we're basically going to be flooded with MK2 aircons in the initial production runs and nothing to haul them.  Those are production slots that could have been better used for MK1s in more liveries.  Blue Grey springs instantly to mind, and WR Chocolate and Cream a quick second to support the forthcoming Castle.

[andrewshimmin]

8 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

But for a launch range, you don't need that kind of duplication to be honest, and it takes a production slot for something else providing more variety in the range.  It's a case of pick one for launch, not both.  Unless they are horribly behind with the other promised coaches and needed to get something, anything produced... It's quite bone headed by Hornby to be honest.

 

It's not compulsory to buy them you know 😜

[andrewshimmin]

3 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

So we're basically going to be flooded with MK2 aircons in the initial production runs and nothing to haul them.  Those are production slots that could have been better used for MK1s in more liveries.  Blue Grey springs instantly to mind, and WR Chocolate and Cream a quick second to support the forthcoming Castle.

 

I'm pretty sure that more will be announced later including Blue/grey Mark 1s. I imagine they want to leave some "suprise" announcements for mid year to generate more interest.

[natterjack]

4 minutes ago, frobisher said:

So we're basically going to be flooded with MK2 aircons

You seem very keen to add complexity of what would have been an easy and economic decision vis a vis product range going into the future.

[Porfuera]

25 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

So we're basically going to be flooded with MK2 aircons in the initial production runs and nothing to haul them.  Those are production slots that could have been better used for MK1s in more liveries.  Blue Grey springs instantly to mind, and WR Chocolate and Cream a quick second to support the forthcoming Castle.

 

As I said before it is probably about quick wins, saving time on resezrch, CAD and tooling (as was also pointed out by @natterjack) and the fact that they can't do everything at once - you can't please all of the people all of the time...

[Legend]

59 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Much play is being made of the lack of BR green and BR blue versions of the 08.

 

But exactly how difficult is it going to be to take an 08 in GB Railfreight or DB Schenker, and stick it in the line of fire of a rattlecan of Brunswick Green or Rail Blue?

 

These are single colour liveries. Glazing would have to be removed or masked , wasp stripes might need masking , but Railtec are making transfers available.

 

A new scale requires a certain amount of pioneering work and dare I say it a willingness to make things.

 

Here is a simple straightforward test of whether TT:120 works as a constructional scale . Can you repaint an 08 into a simple plain livery without undue difficulty ? This  sort of thing is not a problem in either 4mm or 3mm

 

If you are modelling before 1960 you don't even need wasp stripes. Plain green or plain black

 

A new scale cannot launch on the basis of being spoon-fed absolutely everything exactly right straight out of the box

 

 

 

Its not about been spoon fed. Its about what will maximise sales and give Hornby a quicker return on investment . If they get good returns then the scale will be successful and flourish .

 

Id forgotten about both Mk2E and Mk2 F as Frobisher has pointed out - clearly another weird choice - all the more reason for that 47 !

 

I do take on board Stationmasters and Profueras points that for the new market they may well go for a Class 66 with Pullmans because it looks nice (my own first set was a Tri-ang Freightmaster and I also got 2 Tri-ang Pullmans because with all the table lamps they looked nice !) but with just a little more though eg advance the 47 , push back the 50, make locos available in a wider range of colours , they could have appealed to new market and some of the existing market too . Surely a win win !

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Its not about been spoon fed. Its about what will maximise sales and give Hornby a quicker return on investment . If they get good returns then the scale will be successful and flourish .

 

Id forgotten about both Mk2E and Mk2 F as Frobisher has pointed out - clearly another weird choice - all the more reason for that 47 !

 

I do take on board Stationmasters and Profueras points that for the new market they may well go for a Class 66 with Pullmans because it looks nice (my own first set was a Tri-ang Freightmaster and I also got 2 Tri-ang Pullmans because with all the table lamps they looked nice !) but with just a little more though eg advance the 47 , push back the 50, make locos available in a wider range of colours , they could have appealed to new market and some of the existing market too . Surely a win win !

 

Given that they've done both in 4mm , could it be that they have produced a single tooling suite that allows them to offer both varients in TT:120? 

 

What exactly are the differences? I don't know the vehicles in that fine detail - Harris lumps them together as a single chapter  in his Mk2 book, and from what I can make out the differences are different aircon equipment and in most of 2Fs different seats.

 

If it's the same bodyshell with different boxes on the underframe and a slightly different interior , then a single suite of tooling might well cover both types

 

(I posted a video of mainline steam earlier - the second clip in it featured an A4 with an EWS 66 behind the tender, followed by a maroon support coach followed by crimson /cream Mk1s . You could do that with what's been announced 🤪)

 

I get the impression the phasing /timings are a bit flexible as things evolve. Phase 2 is supposed to be Stanier Pacific and coaches, plus 66 - the Stanier coaches are almost here, the Duchess looks like it's slipping to the end of next year, and the 66 is just going out for tooling alongside two 0-6-0s. The latter are presumably the 57xx and J94, which are listed as either Phase 4 or Phase 5....

 

Meanwhile I don't think we've seen even an EP of the 50, which is supposed to be Phase 2 as well. We have seen the HST, so my guess is the HST comes second half of this year , with the 66/ 0-6-0Ts around New Year

 

Whatever the planned phasing was on paper, the real world is clearly intervening....

[Porfuera]

Their decisions may also be influenced by what they are planning/doing in 00 - so maybe they already have some 00 research and CAD that they can use in TT:120 that gives them a head-start in TT:120 or maybe some of the TT:120 research and development will soon be used in 00 - who knows? But weren't TTAs recently released/upgraded in 00 and soon to be released in TT:120 - there must have been some  crossover there...

Edited February 14, 2023 by Porfuera

[natterjack]

16 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

Their decisions may also be influenced by what they are planning/doing in 00

On the question of why make this or that from a single core tool, the Coronation holds out the probability of forthcoming rakes of LNER Tourist stock in OO as well as the Silver Jubilee, and maybe in TT too!

 

 

[frobisher]

1 minute ago, andrewshimmin said:

I'm pretty sure that more will be announced later including Blue/grey Mark 1s. I imagine they want to leave some "suprise" announcements for mid year to generate more interest.

 

Obviously that's what they will be doing...  But by definition, two lots of nearly identical aircons doesn't produce as much interest in the first place.

 

1 minute ago, natterjack said:

You seem very keen to add complexity of what would have been an easy and economic decision vis a vis product range going into the future.

 

The easy economic decision is to make lots of MK1s in different liveries which all use the same tooling rather than one that requires slides swapped in and out for different batches. Or, in fact to just make the 2E or the 2F first and follow up with the other LATER.

 

7 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

As I said before it is probably about quick wins, saving time on resezrch, CAD and tooling (as was also pointed out by @natterjack) and the fact that they can't do everything at once - you can't please all of the people all of the time...

 

A quicker win is MORE MK1s initially rather than a duplicate batch of nearly identical MK2s.  The fact that many in this thread haven't noticed that there are the two types being produced speaks volumes.

 

I wish Hornby well (and it is to be applauded they have tooled up two types, presumably based off of the work they did in 00), but doing both types at once smacks of "because we can" rather than "because we should".

[natterjack]

4 minutes ago, frobisher said:

The easy economic decision is to make lots of MK1s in different liveries which all use the same tooling rather than one that requires slides swapped in and out for different batches.

I may be getting hold of the wrong end of your stick but moulding and decorative application are not a single production process- the first does not preclude the latter at any future stage whilst the latter cannot be done without the mould.

[Hobby]

10 minutes ago, frobisher said:

"because we can" rather than "because we should".

 

Or because they feel it's the best option for launching the scale and maximising income - just a thought!

 

[Porfuera]

32 minutes ago, natterjack said:

I may be getting hold of the wrong end of your stick but moulding and decorative application are not a single production process- the first does not preclude the latter at any future stage whilst the latter cannot be done without the mould.

 

And not just the application - the colours have to be researched and matched, the livery has to be designed (especially for multicolour liveries), livery samples have to be produced - and that's for each livery. Just imagine the complaints if they get any of that wrong because they've rushed it. Much easier to do a variant of the same coach in the same single colour.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Porfuera

[britishcolumbian]

Incidentally, why are we assuming that anyone not already into modelling, doesn't know aught about railways? I don't model ships, never have, have no desire to do so, but I do know a fair bit about them!

[Porfuera]

26 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Incidentally, why are we assuming that anyone not already into modelling, doesn't know aught about railways? I don't model ships, never have, have no desire to do so, but I do know a fair bit about them!

 

I guess it won't be black and white but shades of grey when it comes to an individual's knowledge about stuff, but when it comes to stating a case on here then people will generalise and use one extreme or the other to support the argument they're making.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Porfuera

[jonnyuk]

it's interesting to read the differing opinions on who the range is aimed at and how this might be driving what the range consists of. i can only use myself as the case study, but when i got back into trains some 6 years ago after 15 years out, the first thing i did was build a 6x4 in the garage on some more than dodgy baseboards. I re-used old steel track i found in my parents loft, dusted off my 90's early 2000's Hornby rolling stock and played trains. Nothing in my roster went together in regards era or location, i right mixed bag of stuff i liked, class 90/91 in swallow livery, a mix of wagons and a couple of Pacific's with no suitable coaches. At some point i found this forum and everything changed.

All of a sudden i became aware of era's, geolocations, prototypes etc, it also opened my eyes to more than just Hornby. I now model era 3 with GWR and South Western stock (mostly ex lswr), modern is GWR for passenger, infrastructure and freight from the south.

This forum has greatly shaped my modelling, gone are the days of buying what i fancy and more towards buying what i like and can afford based on it fitting into the above (a large reason for this is cost, i simply can't afford to buy everything i like).
I say all this because if the new entrant is Hornby's market then what goes together really is not the point, they are after a hook, something to draw them into the hobby, for that you need big sexy stuff, like what's in phase 1 and 2. This new hobbiest may or may not grow into a modeller and hone in on a certain prototypes and the later phases suggest this is the direction of travel.

 

So basically start the range with something big and sexy, enough bits and bobs to start a nice layout without having to actually model per say, then in later phases introduce things that go together once the new entrant has found their feet and want to progress, just like i did in OO.

 

Just a thought....

[Jeff Smith]

Being a GWR/WR fan I would have preferred one of the two launch train sets to be an Era 4 BR Castle and chocolate and cream Mk1s rather than both be LNER/ER based.  But I guess I'll just have to wait......

[Les1952]

10 hours ago, Roy L S said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that if the demographic is an as yet untapped market of "new" modellers with limited space it might be an idea to produce a more entry level set with R1 curves and 08 and say three wagons? 

 

I have checked the dimensions of the TT120 08 and at about 85cms long, it and a few wagons on a simple small oval with siding would seem to fit the smaller home concept far better than an A4 three coaches and a large oval using R3 track....

 

Roy

 

Talking to SK at Gaydon and watching the TTTalk videos I think that this might be coming.  Maybe even in time for Christmas 2023?  All the bits will be in place by Summer.

 

Les

[Les1952]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Much play is being made of the lack of BR green and BR blue versions of the 08.

 

But exactly how difficult is it going to be to take an 08 in GB Railfreight or DB Schenker, and stick it in the line of fire of a rattlecan of Brunswick Green or Rail Blue?

 

These are single colour liveries. Glazing would have to be removed or masked , wasp stripes might need masking , but Railtec are making transfers available.

 

A new scale requires a certain amount of pioneering work and dare I say it a willingness to make things.

 

Here is a simple straightforward test of whether TT:120 works as a constructional scale . Can you repaint an 08 into a simple plain livery without undue difficulty ? This  sort of thing is not a problem in either 4mm or 3mm

 

If you are modelling before 1960 you don't even need wasp stripes. Plain green or plain black

 

A new scale cannot launch on the basis of being spoon-fed absolutely everything exactly right straight out of the box

 

 

 

Plain blue is in the first release of Class 08.  Much easier to spray green if that takes your fancy - and I won't say I'm not tempted in that direction myself...

 

Les