Hornby announce TT:120

[andrewshimmin]

23 minutes ago, ixionmodels said:

Good to see another manufacturer here making an obvious point:  no model producer can do everything that customers want. This is a regular experience for Ixion Models.  In a letter or phone call, via email or at a show, a punter will come up to us and say: “I am absolutely convinced that the 0-10-2 Woop Woop Railway ‘Desert Queen’ would be an absolute rip-snorter of a sales success. Why don’t you make that??  No-one else has done it. I’d buy two!”

Our response is:

1. It’s not in our current model program ( but thanks for the suggestion; we’ll add it to our list of customer requests).

(But if the proposer isn’t satisfied with that answer, then it’s time for:)

2. Well, there are probably compelling economic reasons why no-one else has made it; have you pondered those reasons?

3. The MOQ (minimum order quantity) of the factory we use is 1500 for locomotives. Once you buy your two, that still leaves us a quarter of a million dollars out of pocket and with 1498 [turkeys] left to sell. And no profit on this model = no next model. And therefore no more Ixion Models. Are you sure you can’t find the cash to buy 750 for yourself so we can at least break even?

Revolution Ben is, I’m sure, familiar with the old saw:

Q: How do you make a small fortune in model railways?

A: Start with a large one. 

Hornby have the resources to take the leap into TT120 - a truly accurate scale/gauge combination, a description that can’t be applied to UK N gauge and OO - that is compatible with TT120 models from everywhere else in the world. (We in the rest of the world also have the very accurate HO and 1:160 N scales.) I for one would love to see TT120 boom in the UK, and have no vested interest so personally I don’t really care if it cannibalises modellers, cash and enthusiasm from N gauge and OO. I actually don’t think it will - people are invested both financially and emotionally in the models they already have - but if TT120 grows, you can be sure other manufacturers will grasp the opportunity to make a quid. They’ll wait until there’s a ‘critical mass’ of buyers, that’s just good business sense. But they’ll watch closely, just the same,

Phil Badger and I (and our late, great mate Chris Klein) wanted to do the GC Robinson 8K ROD 2-8-0 for our first Ixion model, in N gauge, but we let ourselves be talked out of it in favour of the GWR Manor. We’re still filthy that we didn’t go with our gut on that one, not least because 13 of them ran on the Richmond Vale Railway in the Hunter Valley in NSW, less than 20 miles from my home, and we love that engine. But, looking way ahead, what about a TT120 ROD? Now that would really be something… https://livinghistories.newcastle.edu.au/nodes/view/94224

How long before we could sell 1500, I wonder?

 

Image by Brian R Andrews from the University of Newcastle Special Collections. Licensed under CC BY-NC 4.0.

 

I think it would be a big seller, it's a long loved and widespread class and one's not just preserved but has run recently and will run again in a few years.

I think there could be a big opportunity for someone to offer in TT:120 the equivalent of the range which Bachmann did in OO of "famous engines from the NRM collection".

Mind you I'm mainly saying that because I'd like a Midland Compound, GCR Butler Henderson and 2-8-0, GNR Atlantic and LYR radial tank.

But as you say, I can't promise to buy more than one of each 😜.

[britishcolumbian]

32 minutes ago, ixionmodels said:

 But, looking way ahead, what about a TT120 ROD? Now that would really be something… https://livinghistories.newcastle.edu.au/nodes/view/94224

Well I do know there are some 1:120 modellers in Australia - we've had some nice North American outline kits come from there!

[Ron Ron Ron]

21 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 A quick look at the most recent Platform 5 volume I have (2021) shows approximately 175  Class 08s listed  , plus 10 Class 09

 

There's quite a few shown as at the Weardale Railway and occasional preserved line listings, but an awful lot of them are shown as at obvious depot or industrial locations. ……

 

Your figures may be accurate for locos cleared to run on Network Rail - but there's an awful lot of 08s in commercial use that aren't……

Loco numbers and fleet listings are not my bag, but the figure I gave are from several sources.

They generally say something like 82 plus are active, including industrial use, with a very large number classified as in preservation, which will include well used workhorses on some preserved lines.

The number in active use will undoubtedly fluxuate as various shunters will be restored from storage, or are under longer term overhaul, but it’s reckoned to be well below 100 in total and falling.

I did say numbers in preservation are over 70 and I’ve read it’s nearly 90..

So yes, around 170 or so exist, but it’s far from your quote….  “In fact there are several hundred 08s still in service on the network….”

 

21 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

08 442 - ArrivaTrainCare, Eastleigh Depot . (Not NR cleared)

08 445 - Daventry International Rail Terminal (Not NR cleared)

08 447 - Assenta Rail, hamilton, Glasgow (Not NR cleared)

08 460 - GB Railfreight, Eastleigh East Yard (Not NR cleared)  [Hornby are doing a GB Railfreight 08]

 

and so on and so on 

 

Those aren't in preservation

 

Accurate up-to-date numbers will be hard to to keep track of and such databases, particularly for an old, fluctuating, but diminishing fleet like the 08’s can go out of date from the moment they are published.

 

For example, 08 442 was noted as out of use in 2017 and being stripped for parts in 2020 and in a bare state in 2021.

This loco’s shell was awaiting the torch in 2022.

What of others?

 

 

 

.
 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[friscopete]

I noted in the latest TT  club magazine that a Terrier is in the planning stage  .Just the loco to get me into TT .

[Fireline]

2 hours ago, friscopete said:

I noted in the latest TT  club magazine that a Terrier is in the planning stage  .Just the loco to get me into TT .

Hang on, Hornby have announced something, and it's not January???? It must be really rather chilly in Hades today!

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

08 460 - GB Railfreight, Eastleigh East Yard (Not NR cleared)  [Hornby are doing a GB Railfreight 08]

 

I must admit to being rather puzzled by that item.  As Eastleigh East Yard is NR property how can something which is not 'NR cleared' work there?  I suspect the notation is incorrect and the loco might not be cleared for operation outside the yard - which is something rather different.

 

Incidentally there is photo evidence of the presence of 3 08s in Eastleigh East Yard back in 2019 but that might possibly have been part of some sort of post-works transit move as the photo suggests they  were in very shiny condition with modern marker light fittings on the end of one that was visible in the photo.

 

But whatever there is no doubt that the national network fleet of 08s is miniscule compared with what it once was.  Over the years the total number of 350s/08s at locations which I managed or where I worked ran well into double figures.  None of those turns  now survive and, as is nowadays commonplace, at those of the locations which stil survive what little 'real' shunting that takes place is covered by train locos.

 

Back to TT120.  Hornby needed a niche product to create a market area which they could hopefully dominate and that is exactly what they have done - as  I have sometimes forecast in past 'new release guessing threads'.    And they've done it using TT120; a bold move that has started with very saleable trainsets,  probably the best way to get the range going.

 

I do wonder if they realised exactly what they were taking on by using the direct sales and product support route but they will no doubt learn the wide range of things which is involved in being a retailer.  But overall I think that direct sales for their TT120 range is probably the correct route to market notwithstanding all the things beyond the initial sale that they will find it involves.

 

My main concerns are their ability to ensure product delivery and quality especially once they start to create the wider market where early disappointment will definitely not help things along.  And it involves some big numbers investment using, it appears, a lot of borrowed money which might curtail investment on other railway ranges (that hasn't happened yet) and put a strain on their financial position for some time.   TT120 will take time to return the investment and they have obviously planned for that but overall market acceptance and wider market growth are something where time will tell.

[andrewshimmin]

If and when people take delivery of stuff it would be lovely to see photos. 

Lots and lots so far of the original Scotsman set but fewer of the Easterner and hardly any of the 4472 model or buildings.

I would love to see whatever else people are receiving and indeed hear their brief review of it.

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, andrewshimmin said:

If and when people take delivery of stuff it would be lovely to see photos.

 

It would be nice to see some weathering/renumbering/detailing. A bit of modelling. And some realistic layouts/scenes.

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Fireline said:

Hang on, Hornby have announced something, and it's not January???? It must be really rather chilly in Hades today!

 

I guess you haven't been paying attention - for TT:120 they've said they're aiming to be releasing stuff every three months (or more frequently if they can) and will be making announcements to suit.

[andrewshimmin]

39 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

It would be nice to see some weathering/renumbering/detailing. A bit of modelling. And some realistic layouts/scenes.

 

I'm sure there will be in time. But even the earliest customers have had their models for two months - and they're A1 pacifics in 1930s condition so probably kept quite clean anyway!

[Johan DC]

1 hour ago, andrewshimmin said:

If and when people take delivery of stuff it would be lovely to see photos. 

Lots and lots so far of the original Scotsman set but fewer of the Easterner and hardly any of the 4472 model or buildings.

I would love to see whatever else people are receiving and indeed hear their brief review of it.

There are quite some reviews of both Pacifics on YT, and great close ups on Instagram. 

Some of the official TT:120 ambassadors are starting with layouts, saw a weathered prototype  too. 

[Hobby]

A few of us have started layouts and have opened threads in the TT:120 section. There's even more online but much of that is more along the trainset type layout, though still railway modelling... Plenty of buildings are appearing as well, some very nicely finished... As for weathering, I like WW as he is, as mine's a preserved loco it suits it well, not too perfect and shiny but just right. I suppose it's what people prefer, I look at many layouts with weathered diesels and electrics (as an example) and feel they just don't look right, so sometimes it's best to leave things alone...

 

This thread seems more dicsussion rather than modelling, though!

Edited February 17, 2023 by Hobby
spelling

[Ravenser]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I must admit to being rather puzzled by that item.  As Eastleigh East Yard is NR property how can something which is not 'NR cleared' work there?  I suspect the notation is incorrect and the loco might not be cleared for operation outside the yard - which is something rather different.

 

Incidentally there is photo evidence of the presence of 3 08s in Eastleigh East Yard back in 2019 but that might possibly have been part of some sort of post-works transit move as the photo suggests they  were in very shiny condition with modern marker light fittings on the end of one that was visible in the photo.

 

But whatever there is no doubt that the national network fleet of 08s is miniscule compared with what it once was.  Over the years the total number of 350s/08s at locations which I managed or where I worked ran well into double figures.  None of those turns  now survive and, as is nowadays commonplace, at those of the locations which stil survive what little 'real' shunting that takes place is covered by train locos.

 

 

Platform  5 also list 08 511 at Eastleigh,  08 670 and 927 at Bescot Yard, and 08 730 and 08 934 at Whitemoor Yard . All for GB Railfreight , and all but 08 934 owned by Railway Support Services (latter is GB Railfreight's own) . Meanwhile GB Railfreight's own  08 818 and 08 925 are with HNRC at their Worksop depot/wagon works . Of all these locos only 08 670 at Bescot is marked as "Locomotives with engineering acceptance to operate on Network Rail infrastructure"

 

It's worth prodding this one a bit further - what exactly are these locos doing, and can we get layouts out of this?

 

It would seem my suggestion of a wagon works with 66s bringing in /taking away the wagons for repair, and an 08 or two to shunt the site is bang on the money for HNRC's Worksop operation

 

 

Quote

... using, it appears, a lot of borrowed money which might curtail investment on other railway ranges (that hasn't happened yet) and put a strain on their financial position for some time.   TT120 will take time to return the investment and they have obviously planned for that but overall market acceptance and wider market growth are something where time will tell.

 

 

I tend to take the view that the opportunities in OO largely involve things that haven't been done before, or things that haven't been done to 21st century standards, (plus replacing tooling that is actually wearing out.)

 

The supply of those in OO is running low. LMS Period 1 and 2 coaches and Period 3 CK, and a few things like J94 and 14xx (where DJM made a horlicks of his effort to beat Hornby) are available; there are hints that some of the old Airfix/Mainline tooling may be starting to wear out. But almost everything else in volume-built locos and coaches post 1923 has been done. And Hornby are not ones for re-tooling things unless they really have to

 

So I don't think it's really a question of TT:120 starving OO of investment, so much as Hornby feeling they are starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel in terms of tooling opportunities in OO , and looking for more promising opportunities elsewhere to spend their tooling budget on. A Class 66 in TT looks a lot better prospect than pretty well any loco subject you can come up with in OO. Why invest in  a 3rd rival new-tool 37 in OO when you can do the first one in TT:120??

 

That doesn't mean Hornby will stop making OO. Dapol haven't developed much new tooling for N recently. But they've made vigourous use of the tooling they already have...

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ravenser
can't spell Whitemoor

[Robin Brasher]

My main interest is 00 although I have also got an N gauge layout and some 0 gauge stock. The 00 gauge and N gauge layouts take a long time to set up so I am building a TT:120 gauge layout that I can take to our model railway club in my car and set it up in a few minutes. At 4' 6" x 3' 3" it is a bit unwieldy but it is light and easy for two people to carry. I have also got a second 4'6" x 2'6" N gauge layout which is easier to set up than the TT:120 layout.

 

I enclose a picture of the layout. It is a loose lay layout but I have made and painted the plywood baseboard and built a platform using Peco platform edging against a cardboard base. I am not sure that a long siding to the engine shed is a good idea as that siding would be more useful storing a set of coaches. 

[Ravenser]

9 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It would be nice to see some weathering/renumbering/detailing. A bit of modelling. And some realistic layouts/scenes.

 

It strikes me that 66 + 08 provides a very credible package for a lot of contemporary small freight operations

 

Just going back to the 08 shunter list for a moment , and 08 375 . The Port of Boston evidently feel they have a use for a shunting loco. The Boston Docks branch is a single-track length of chewed string that trails off the network past the old goods shed, crosses the A16 and plunges into the back-blocks of the town. There are one or two trains a week  I think , and I believe the traffic at present is steel. I'm not certain whether the line into Boston is currently ok for 66s : I recall there have been problems with the state of the track for locomotives north of Boston, but they are clearly OK to get freight trains into the port

 

I'm seeing a small terminus /fiddle yard freight operation, with a scenic area 5' x 15" . Possibly 2 boards each 2'6" by 15" which box up as a crate. The fiddle yard is a 22-23" cassette hung off one end of the scenic section. That will take a 66 + 3 bogie wagons. The loco comes in , drops off the wagons, maybe picks up some outgoing wagons , and departs. The 08 fusses around shunting everything into place. Use a bit of modeller's licence  to add a second traffic flow and you have a fair bit of potential 

 

With that footprint you can lay the whole thing out quite spaciously and use large vehicles and still have something that is little bigger than a ferociously compressed micro in 4mm. Scale up that footprint to 4mm and you are talking about something around 8' x 2' with a 1m train length. Not something that's easy to accomodate at home,. But this would be..

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ravenser
Docks not Harbour

[philsandy]

20 hours ago, philsandy said:

Had an email from Hornby today, my pre ordered BR A3 Night Hawk has arrived in their warehouse and will shortly be prepared for despatch.

 

Oh, and Issue 2 of the TT120 magazine arrived today, though I never got issue 1.

 

Gets better, email from DPD, it's being delivered Monday.

[009 micro modeller]

11 hours ago, ixionmodels said:

not least because 13 of them ran on the Richmond Vale Railway in the Hunter Valley in NSW, less than 20 miles from my home, and we love that engine. But, looking way ahead, what about a TT120 ROD? Now that would really be something… https://livinghistories.newcastle.edu.au/nodes/view/94224

How long before we could sell 1500, I wonder?

Only slightly related to this but out of interest - is there much (or any) Australian-outline TT modelling going on?

[irishmail]

Issue 2 of the TT:120 club magazine is now available as a PDF in the members area. 

[frobisher]

19 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Only slightly related to this but out of interest - is there much (or any) Australian-outline TT modelling going on?

 

Maybe an XPT might be a target for Hornby, but done properly rather than just a paint job (Lima approach previously)?

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Platform  5 also list 08 511 at Eastleigh,  08 670 and 927 at Bescot Yard, and 08 730 and 08 934 at Whitemore Yard . All for GB Railfreight , and all but 08 934 owned by Railway Support Services (latter is GB Railfreight's own) . Meanwhile GB Railfreight's own  08 818 and 08 925 are with HNRC at their Worksop depot/wagon works . Of all these locos only 08 670 at Bescot is marked as "Locomotives with engineering acceptance to operate on Network Rail infrastructure"

 

It's worth prodding this one a bit further - what exactly are these locos doing, and can we get layouts out of this?

 

It would seem my suggestion of a wagon works with 66s bringing in /taking away the wagons for repair, and an 08 or two to shunt the site is bang on the money for HNRC's Worksop operation

 

 

 

 

I tend to take the view that the opportunities in OO largely involve things that haven't been done before, or things that haven't been done to 21st century standards, (plus replacing tooling that is actually wearing out.)

 

The supply of those in OO is running low. LMS Period 1 and 2 coaches and Period 3 CK, and a few things like J94 and 14xx (where DJM made a horlicks of his effort to beat Hornby) are available; there are hints that some of the old Airfix/Mainline tooling may be starting to wear out. But almost everything else in volume-built locos and coaches post 1923 has been done. And Hornby are not ones for re-tooling things unless they really have to

 

So I don't think it's really a question of TT:120 starving OO of investment, so much as Hornby feeling they are starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel in terms of tooling opportunities in OO , and looking for more promising opportunities elsewhere to spend their tooling budget on. A Class 66 in TT looks a lot better prospect than pretty well any loco subject you can come up with in OO. Why invest in  a 3rd rival new-tool 37 in OO when you can do the first one in TT:120??

 

That doesn't mean Hornby will stop making OO. Dapol haven't developed much new tooling for N recently. But they've made vigourous use of the tooling they already have...

Judging by photos eastleihgh east yard seem to be mainly a base for civil engineering trains and possibly some space used for stock storage.  I presume that it is probably staffed and managed by a freight operating company as that seems to be the case with most yards - i.e. the yards are owned by NR and leased to a freight operator.  Technically that makes them part of the national network as any operator could work into such a yard (unless the access clauses have been considerably since my day - but that was a good while back).

 

Hence I suspect that what it boils down to is that the 08s are not permitted on running lines - probably due to lack of modern safety fit such as lights and, more importantly, stuff like TPWS ec.  it would for example be quite a job to make an 08 fully TPWS compliant without majot changes to the traction power control system or to fit full Driver vigilance controls.  So instead of full registration and compliance they have some sort of restricted authority allowing them to be used only in the yard swhere they are based.

 

But even with tha background the possibilities and ideas are endless only really ;limited by their power output - 1,000 tons on the faly should still be within their capabilities I'd have thought - and whatever they can couple to.  so various sorts of industry, rail related repair and maintenance facilities, and even a heritage or leisure railway site (the last time I drove an 08 was from Cholsey to Wallingford).

[Les1952]

8 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It would be nice to see some weathering/renumbering/detailing. A bit of modelling. And some realistic layouts/scenes.

 

Give us time.....

 

Les

 

[Les1952]

21 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi Les,

 

Gaugemaster have offered various starter sets in N by combining stock with Kato Unitrack and contoller, but stocks seem fairly intermittent:

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/scales/n-gauge.html?manufacturer=197&type=899

 

Other retailers have approached us in the past asking for a 'basic' starter set but we just don't have the kind of business model that can produce a train set with track and controller included.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Hello.

 

I'm not being critical of Revolution, Sonic etc for not getting to the train set market- even Dapol isn't really big enough.

 

There is only one company in the UK market other than Hornby who can do train sets for the entry market- that is Bachmann.

 

They choose not to even attempt them in N.

 

Les

 

[Les1952]

There's been a lot of total carp talked by various people about how Hornby and Peco track are incompatable etc etc etc.

 

Here assuming I can get the link to work a video of a train on Bregstadt (under construction) passing over a joint betweem a Peco point and a Hornby curve.  Note just how bumpy it isn't....

 

 

It also shows how Hornby stuff couples quite happily to Tillig coaches either side of it (better than the brown Tillig coach couples to the three-axle coaches), with a Roco loco at the front.

 

Les

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Les1952

[ixionmodels]

5 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Only slightly related to this but out of interest - is there much (or any) Australian-outline TT modelling going on?

None at all that I've ever seen, unless there are some enthusiast modellers doing European TT120 at home. It's too close in size to HO, which is the dominant scale with large RTR ranges available.

[frobisher]

7 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

There's been a lot of total carp talked by various people about how Hornby and Peco track are incompatable etc etc etc.

 

Here assuming I can get the link to work a video of a train on Bregstadt (under construction) passing over a joint betweem a Peco point and a Hornby curve.  Note just how bumpy it isn't....

 

It's almost as if Peco knew what they were doing...