Hornby announce TT:120

[BachelorBoy]

40 minutes ago, natterjack said:

Bear in mind that this is hindsight.

[natterjack]

It might be worth adding that 1/120 (ish) frequently appears in the 'box scale' diecast aircraft ranges and while mostly warbirds, some of these might be suitable for civilian conversions- something like Mosquitos and Lightnings used in photo surveying, fighter aircraft finding a new lease of life in racing etc..

[britishcolumbian]

3 hours ago, natterjack said:

It might be worth adding that 1/120 (ish) frequently appears in the 'box scale' diecast aircraft ranges and while mostly warbirds, some of these might be suitable for civilian conversions- something like Mosquitos and Lightnings used in photo surveying, fighter aircraft finding a new lease of life in racing etc..

It's also worth scouring Scalemates or similar databases, as there have been quite a few civilian aircraft (and ship) kits released over the years in scales ranging 1:118 to 1:124 or so that would be suitable for TT...

 

Quick scan of 1:120 civilian aircraft...

 

Dan-Air BAe-146 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/sky-marks-airfix-skr334-bae146-300--1327034

Boeing 727 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/arii-boeing-727--1469112

Ilyushin Il-62 (kitbash to VC-10?) https://www.scalemates.com/kits/alanger-050001-russian-airliner-il-62m--145651

Douglas DC-9 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-4244-klm-royal-dutch-airlines-dc-9--939792

Let Z-37 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/kres-33701-czech-let-z-37a-melak--1292811

 

1:115

Lockheed Electra https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-kikoler-h-255-jet-prop-electra--1002528

 

1:121

Vickers Viscount https://www.scalemates.com/kits/kader-393-vickers-viscount--1074436

 

1:122

Douglas DC-7 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-04242-douglas-dc-7c--103891

 

1:125

Concorde https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80457-concorde--170048

Airbus A300 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80461-airbus-a-300-b2--932549

Airbus A320 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/mistercraft-f-09-a-320-200-british-airways--1298684

Airbus A380 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80436-a-380-af--1421258

Boeing 707 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-700-boeing-707--169089

Boeing 727 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80447-boeing-727--146819

Boeing 737-200 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-454-boeing-737--169242

Boeing 747 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80470-boeing-747-virgin-atlantic--654071

Bristol Britannia https://www.scalemates.com/kits/marusan-412-bristol-britannia-310--1122002

Dassault Mercure https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-453-amd-mercure-100--246153

Douglas DC-8 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-douglas-dc-8--1024601

Douglas DC-9 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80474-dc-9-sas--252426

Douglas DC-10 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80460-douglas-dc10--1076203

Lockheed L1011 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-kiko-f-80451-lockheed-1011-tristar--246151

Yakovlev Yak-40 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/yunyj-technik-yak-40--192770

 

1:126

Convair 240/340/440/C-131 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/testors-905-convair-c-131--947135

Convair 880 https://www.scalemates.com/kits/glencoe-models-05502-convair-880--170419

 

1:127

Vickers Viscount https://www.scalemates.com/kits/lincoln-international-103-vickers-viscount--1052231

 

1:128

Lockheed Super Constellation https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-4237-lockheed-l1049-super-constellation--140283

 

So you've got some options. 1:125 is close enough to fit very well and could do quite a good 60s/70s/80s airport scene...

[MarkSG]

On 19/08/2023 at 05:06, jjb1970 said:

No doubt many old geezers like kettles for nostalgia reasons and many younger people do want models of contemporary trains but I have always found it a highly questionable assumption. There are plenty of older enthusiasts who are passionate about the contemporary scene and no shortage of youngsters with an interest in steam era trains.

 

Old geezers with nostalgia don't model steam, they model blue diesels. And even the older old geezers who can actually remember steam can't remember much, if anything, prior to nationalisation. And yet Big Four stuff sells. 

 

From my observation and experience, I'd say that adult modellers who model steam typically do so because they also have an interest in history, rather than specifically about nostalgia. There's quite a big overlap between steam era modellers and people who are interested in historic architecture (eg, listed buildings) and the such like. Or, and particularly those who model the transition era, they are interested in a specific part of railway history that will forever be a one-off.

 

As far as children are concerned, bear in mind that most kids who are into trains will probably have got there via Thomas and friends, most of which are steam locos. And these days, many children - particularly those from outside the major cities - are more likely to have travelled on a heritage railway than on National Rail. So to them, steam trains are just normal anyway. It's only as they get older, and transition away from train sets into modelling, that the concept of era becomes relevant.

 

 

[Guest]

All good points. I think too that the interest in steam is also because they are more interesting machines and have more character. To many small (and bigger) children they seem alive. 
 

As a 50 year old geezer, my nostalgia is for the sights and sounds of the 80s and 90s and my modelling, such as it is, reflects that. BUT I also love the sight, sound and smell of steam & there’s a bigger thrill seeing a steam locomotive working than a diesel or electric. Hearing and feeling a steam locomotive working up the bank up to Goathland from Grosmont on the NYMR is a sound it’s hard to forget. I have the Flying Scotsman for that reason and also because my brother had the OO model as a child, despite not ever seeing it, as far as I know. I saw FS steam through Newcastle a few years ago and the crowds were something to behold. I think Deltics are the only diesels that come close. 

 

My next TT model is likely to be Mallard and I will also be getting Evening Star, which has its own childhood nostalgia having ridden behind it at NYMR. That pretty nicely proves the points being made by @MarkSG. 

[natterjack]

Adding to the above we now have new build steam appearing on British rails and I'm sure the eventual TT120 Tornado and Prince of Wales will sell very well indeed.

[Jeff Smith]

08s and 0-6-0s are pretty plentiful in heritage railways and probably get seen in operation more than the tender locomotives, especially at the smaller centres.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jeff Smith said:

08s and 0-6-0s are pretty plentiful in heritage railways and probably get seen in operation more than the tender locomotives, especially at the smaller centres.

Possibly so, but for me at least they’re less memorable than the bigger locomotives. I don’t think I’m alone in feeling that. 

[Dava]

20 minutes ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

Possibly so, but for me at least they’re less memorable than the bigger locomotives. I don’t think I’m alone in feeling that. 

Smaller tank locos such as Jinties, Panniers, Terriers and J94s were much more numerous than your Pacific express locos on the steam era railway. And more versatile on smaller layouts. I’m personally not interested in modelling anything in TT120 until smaller locos are available. At present it’s mainly A3s & A4s going round & round…

[Hobby]

9 hours ago, Dava said:

Smaller tank locos such as Jinties, Panniers, Terriers and J94s were much more numerous than your Pacific express locos on the steam era railway. And more versatile on smaller layouts. I’m personally not interested in modelling anything in TT120 until smaller locos are available. At present it’s mainly A3s & A4s going round & round…

 

 

My memories of steam on the national network in the late 60s consisted of large locos, although I did underline a few tanks (larger ones, not 0-6-0s), my days were spent seeing 2-8-0s, 4-6-0s, 2-10-0s and 70004 and 70013... Yet that was a steam era railway. Although small tanks were probably more numerous (having said that the two biggest classes were tender locos!) they didn't tend to be at the places the spotters used to congregate in steam days which were mostly mainline locations where the bigger stuff was the norm.

 

Statistics don't always reflect reality.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Hobby
spelling

[whart57]

By the mid sixties you had to live in Rugby League land to have even a remnant of a steam era railway, and in the last two years there were also a fair number of steam specials run to mark the impending end of steam. The smaller engines had already gone, replaced by diesel shunters and DMUs on their workings, so there would have been a skewing to the larger locos.

[Hobby]

35 minutes ago, whart57 said:

By the mid sixties you had to live in Rugby League land

 

Preston was more Rugby Union based for some obscure reason, and still are, the Grasshoppers, as was my and the other local schools, the League teams were a bit further south! My local shed was Lostock Hall.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Hobby

[whart57]

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Preston was more Rugby Union based for some obscure reason, and still are, the Grasshoppers, as was my and the other local schools, the League teams were a bit further south! My local shed was Lostock Hall.

 

Barrow and Workington are Rugby League towns too.

[Hobby]

I was simply pointing out that whilst RL is based mainly in Lancashire and Yorkshire certain parts of it are are strongly RU as well. Its not as clear cut as people make out. And as Preston was the last stronghold of steam worth mentioning! ;)

Edited August 21, 2023 by Hobby

[MartinRS]

6 hours ago, whart57 said:

By the mid sixties you had to live in Rugby League land to have even a remnant of a steam era railway,

My recollections of steam from the mid sixties are from a small village in Wiltshire. When returning from Salisbury on a DMU it wasn't unusual to be told to wait for the express passenger train to run through the station on the other line before crossing the footbridge, otherwise I'd be engulfed in smoke and steam. I suspect the trains were hauled by Bulleid pacifics. The only other steam loco I can remember shunting the local station yard was probably a SR Q1 class. I remember thinking it had 'funny' wheels. (They had the Bulleid Firth Brown wheel). I'm not sure if Wiltshire was ever in Rugby League land. Didn't the Southern Region hold on to steam because the third rail didn't extend into the West Country?

[Flying Pig]

49 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

My recollections of steam from the mid sixties are from a small village in Wiltshire. When returning from Salisbury on a DMU it wasn't unusual to be told to wait for the express passenger train to run through the station on the other line before crossing the footbridge, otherwise I'd be engulfed in smoke and steam. I suspect the trains were hauled by Bulleid pacifics. The only other steam loco I can remember shunting the local station yard was probably a SR Q1 class. I remember thinking it had 'funny' wheels. (They had the Bulleid Firth Brown wheel). I'm not sure if Wiltshire was ever in Rugby League land. Didn't the Southern Region hold on to steam because the third rail didn't extend into the West Country?

 

The Southern held on to steam pending the Bournemouth electrification.  I think steam on the West of England line was a by-product of that.

 

In the North West, the last couple of years of steam were skewed to Black Fives and 8Fs, with Britannias as the only remaining Pacific.  If Hornby were trying to represent the "Death Steam" period accurately they would have missed the mark, but of course they are not. They are selling big popular engines.

[Jeff Smith]

SDJR was a steam holdout until closure in 1966.  9F Evening Star famously headed the Pines Express in 1962 with other 9Fs around the same time.  Time for an S&D layout with maybe a Jinty or Pannier?  Not sure what coaches were used, I think a mix of MR red and SR green.

[Ravenser]

11 hours ago, whart57 said:

By the mid sixties you had to live in Rugby League land to have even a remnant of a steam era railway, and in the last two years there were also a fair number of steam specials run to mark the impending end of steam. The smaller engines had already gone, replaced by diesel shunters and DMUs on their workings, so there would have been a skewing to the larger locos.

 

Not quite - the mainlines out of Waterloo were still steam-worked until the late summer of 1967. But that meant Bulleid Pacifics. Smaller locos were there, but not in great numbers

Edited August 21, 2023 by Ravenser

[Pacific231G]

On 19/08/2023 at 21:17, natterjack said:

  On 19/08/2023 at 21:05, britishcolumbian said:

When I've relettered Tillig models I've just used a soft white drawing eraser, and just rub *gently*... it will take a little bit of time but with care you won't damage the paint beneath, and then just need to apply the new decals.

I suspect that might be the safest initial approach- anybody tried any of the above yet? Part of the modern issue is acrylic printing which can be very reluctant to shift without mechanical recourse.

I've used a fibreglass pencil to very carefully remove the very German markings from Tillig H0m wagons. They have some with a short wheelbase that fits very well my French "d'Intêret Local " but not when they have DR markings all  over them. It took quite a long time and the paint below was slighty roughed up.

 

 

 

 

I have a couple more still to do so will try using a drawing rubber. Getting the white print from between the planks was the trickiest part and I'm not sure that a rubber would manage that but it might be better for the main parts.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Pacific231G
addition of images

[whart57]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Not quite - the mainlines out of Waterloo were still steam-worked until the late summer of 1967. But that meant Bulleid Pacifics. Smaller locos were there, but not in great numbers

 

The Portsmouth Direct had of course been electrified since the 1930s and with it all the suburban services. The vast majority of trains out of Waterloo were EMUs already. The handful of steam-hauled trains to the South West fitting in between the EMUs is not really what we would call a "steam era railway".

[Pacific231G]

On 20/08/2023 at 22:57, Dava said:

Smaller tank locos such as Jinties, Panniers, Terriers and J94s were much more numerous than your Pacific express locos on the steam era railway. And more versatile on smaller layouts. I’m personally not interested in modelling anything in TT120 until smaller locos are available. At present it’s mainly A3s & A4s going round & round…

I agree and it seems to reflect a perceived market for "iconic" locos and trains that fit the trainset market more than the developed model railway market. This isn't exactly new though- my own first Hornby Dublo model railway  (it was permanently laid on a baseboard) had a Dutchess of Atholl, three coaches and about three goods wagons.

In many ways the original TT-3 offer of a Jinty, suburban coaches and wagons followed by a Castle,  and then other locos and main line coaches was better suited to layout builders. 

I see much the same with Hornby International's H0 brands with "iconic" (and well represented in preservation) locos like the 141R and the 140C on offer but the one thing you can't rely on buying is a balanced stud of locos to operate a model railway in a realistic way and, while it's truie that a far higher proportion of modellers have moved on from the steam era, the Jouef brand doesn't even offer a diesel shunter. The fomer Jouef brand did offer a wider range of motive power.  Fortunately, for H0, there are other brands available.

[Hobby]

6 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I agree and it seems to reflect a perceived market for "iconic" locos and trains that fit the trainset market more than the developed model railway market. 

 

To be fair I'd suggest that they'd proved that there IS a market for iconic locos, its not "perceived"! 

 

They've just launched a new scale and will sell what they need to to get things going, hence iconic locos. As we've said many, many times before established enthusiasts aren't currently their target market, they've said that plenty of times but still people ignore their comments!

 

Also comparing with TT3 isn't a fair comparison, the current market is much wider than it was in the late 50s, if you were going to do a range like they did back then you'd need at least four times the number of locos in steam, electric, diesel and MU form to get something that would satisfy an established modeller. But as they've said, you or I aren't their target market.

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

To be fair I'd suggest that they'd proved that there IS a market for iconic locos, its not "perceived"! 

 

They've just launched a new scale and will sell what they need to to get things going, hence iconic locos. As we've said many, many times before established enthusiasts aren't currently their target market, they've said that plenty of times but still people ignore their comments!

 

Also comparing with TT3 isn't a fair comparison, the current market is much wider than it was in the late 50s, if you were going to do a range like they did back then you'd need at least four times the number of locos in steam, electric, diesel and MU form to get something that would satisfy an established modeller. But as they've said, you or I aren't their target market.

What different people might regard as 'iconic' does vary a bit although I think Hornby having picked on identifiable steam outline 'big engines' probably got it right.  They are what many people think of as 'trains' as the crowds of non-enthusiasts turning out to watch 'Flying Scotsman' go by illustrates.

 

Hornby have little choice but to sell dreams (SK got that bit right) to capture new entrants/non-modellers and today many more people, particularly children, are more familiar wth 'steam trains' than they are with DMUs and EMUs.  But maybe 'big' freight diesels will also create interest plus they have all sorts of fancy liveries.   And just how many non-enthusiast/modeller have a clue what an 08 shunter is or what it does?

 

If we believe what Hornby have said about TT120 sales - and we need have no reason to doubt that - big 'romantic' steam outline models work as a selling point to grab the attention of newbies, and that is what counts.

[Pacific231G]

36 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

To be fair I'd suggest that they'd proved that there IS a market for iconic locos, its not "perceived"! 

 

They've just launched a new scale and will sell what they need to to get things going, hence iconic locos. As we've said many, many times before established enthusiasts aren't currently their target market, they've said that plenty of times but still people ignore their comments!

 

Also comparing with TT3 isn't a fair comparison, the current market is much wider than it was in the late 50s, if you were going to do a range like they did back then you'd need at least four times the number of locos in steam, electric, diesel and MU form to get something that would satisfy an established modeller. But as they've said, you or I aren't their target market.

I don't disagree that there is such a market, clearly there is, and starting with "iconic train" sets undoubtedly made sense as a launch straregy for a new (to Britain) scale. BUT, for the scale to be successful in the longer term, and it deserves to be successful,  it needs to develop fairly quickly beyond the train set market into a full model railway range so that those starting out with it need to see where they might be able to get to. Most established modellers, likely do have too much "stuff" to change horses, so it is more about giving the new entrants that TT120 has drawn into the hobby  a pathway, or rather a series of possible pathways, to move on with. Watching trains going round and round on a (far more conveniently sized) table-top may satisfy for a while  but I know several people in my wider circle, beyond "serious" railway modelling, who set out to build the super-duper Hornby train set they'd dreamed of a youngster with several circuits laid out on a board (what Loco-Revue rather charmingly desribes as a "locodrome")  and simply lost interest after a year or so.  

 

The comparison with TT-3, though there are major differences as you say, is that, while Tri-ang were selling 3mm scale train sets, those buying them could very soon see in the magazines etc. model railways built by "serious" railway modellers in the same scale.  A very good example was was Mike Bryan'ts 4ft x 2ft "Pint Pot", run as a five part beginner's project layout by MRC from January 1958 so just a few months after Tri-ang TT-3 actually became widely available. It wasn't Pendon but it was a layout that anyone could build and would then have a "proper" model railway with good operational capacity (branch line teminus with continuous loop and reverse curve) rather than just an extended train set.   

[melmoth]

21 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

Barrow and Workington are Rugby League towns too.

 

20 hours ago, Hobby said:

I was simply pointing out that whilst RL is based mainly in Lancashire and Yorkshire certain parts of it are are strongly RU as well. Its not as clear cut as people make out. And as Preston was the last stronghold of steam worth mentioning! ;)

 

I thought Sodor was the last outpost of steam in the North West. Is it League or Union?