Hornby announce TT:120

[GenericRMWebUsername]

 

 

5 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Well I'm glad that Hornby have produced the HST motive power units in Executive livery. Had they offered the model in the original livery I might have been tempted to step out of my nice green comfort zone again! Executive livery is too much of a leap forward so I'll be content to wait for the forthcoming green Class 08. The 'what's inside' tab at the HST Hornby web page says the product is 2 x Diesel Locomotive. I assume that's a powered car and a dummy car rather than two powered cars?

 

I would have thought that Hornby would release this model simultaneously with the various mk3 coaches available for pre-order. Has anyone seen pre-production models of the mk3s yet at any of the recent exhibitions?

 

As for the comments about Sam's Trains and the recent poll results, which I haven't seen first-hand, it strikes me that 11% is a large percentage of UK model railway enthusiasts involved in TT:120. I take it the poll respondents are a self selected sample of registered FB users. Even if that is the case 11% is about twice what I would have guessed if asked to estimate the number of owners of TT:120 products. That's a high percentage considering the relatively recent introduction of UK outline TT:120.

You better not check the Hornby website next month... The classic BR HST is on its way! And MK 3s should be in the shipment, but they just haven't added them to the website yet. They'll be there over the next few days. And you're right about there being one powered locomotive and a dummy. 

 

4 hours ago, fezza said:

I just question Hornby's choices in TT. Even if you bought everything they've produced so far you couldn't operate a realistic railway. Lots of express locos from different periods and companies but  very little else.

 

Perhaps they should have followed Edward Beal's advice for loco acquisitions -

 

One express loco (Coronation)

One mixed traffic (Black Five)

One Suburban tank (4MT) (or perhaps DMU)

One shunter (Jinty)

 

That would be just four items for Hornby to produce in the first couple of years but enough to run any railway realistically. 

One place where I'll readily concede Hornby made a mistake, was in relation to the 08 liveries. I have absolutely nothing against the DB AG livery (in fact, it's one of my favorite liveries!), but it should have been lower down on the priority list early on. Doing the 08's earlier incarnations should have been the priority. The three liveries could have been Black with early British Railways crest, Green with late British Railways crest, and BR Blue TOPS. This simple change would have been allowed the 08 to pair nicely with the A3s (Trigo, Night Hawk)  and A4s (Falcon, William Whitelaw, Silver King).

 

But ultimately, there's no indication that this mistake has harmed the scale in any appreciable way. People love A1s, A3s, and A4s. And TT120 allows people to run them more easily with long formations. The green 08 with the late British Railways crest is coming later this year. Then you'll be able to run William Whitelaw, Trigo, and the Green 08 together. The J94 is probably one of the two 0-6-0Ts that had entered tooling last March, so you'll also be able to add the J94 to the scene in late 2024/early 2025. 

 

The scale is coming along nicely! 

Edited February 27 by GenericRMWebUsername

[BachelorBoy]

1 hour ago, MartinRS said:

This subject has cropped up several times now. We are in danger of going round and round in circles, just like Nellie's pick-up goods, my very first train set. Didn't you make exactly the same point back in January 2023?

 

 

 

This thread runs on for nearly three hundred pages. Similar questions are going to be asked again and again as few people really want to read the thread from the beginning and make notes. Searching for information can be difficult in such messy text, as you often get lots of irrelevant results. Perhaps AI searching will make things easier.

 

And what's wrong with asking the question again or making the point again?

 

Things change. New people join in with fresh information or ideas. 

 

I still think AY Mod's point from January last year is valid. We don't seem to have a clear answer. The point wouldn't really matter if Hornby had followed up with lots of other rolling stock quickly. But after a year or so, it still does. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michanglais]

I've just ordered an Inter-city HST pack. Can't wait to get my grubby mitts on it.

 

I'm preparing for a move but may have to unbox some track and a controller to have a play. 

 

On the subject of new entrants (by manufacturers), I'm sure they're keeping an eye on things. They seem to be running out of ideas other than repeating pre-existing, decent models and adding further refinement (frequently with a hefty price tag). I'm talking about OO, obviously. 

 

I wonder whether TT could be seen as an untapped market and something worth at least considering (not that I'm expecting that any time soon)?

 

Just the thoughts of a casual, innocent bystander (who has made a return to UK modelling mostly because of TT:120).

[Chris M]

Until the range increases dramatically TT:120 will be very much a train set scale; it won't be possible to build a serious model railway for the foreseeable future. I still haven't got over the Dawlish layout running nothing but LNER pacifics. Could have been a good layout if they had done it in N and used suitable stock.  The HSTs and 50s will improve that layout no end but that layout will still only have two classes of relevant motive power and there doesn't appear to be anything else suitable in the planning stages. You just can't make a proper model railway from the stock announced so far. TT:120 remains ideal for train sets though.

 

It will be interesting to see whether other manufacturers bring out any locos. It would be a big risk but it could just be a good move. 

[fezza]

I made the broadly the same comment as I'm still baffled by Hornby's strategy a year on. I would have expected some of the gaps to be filled by now or for there to be clear announcements from Hornby suggesting they will be. That would build consumer confidence. Hornby is a major force in the hobby industry with the ability to raise substantial capital for new projects - it is not Graham Farish in 1970, which was almost a cottage industry by comparison.

 

The other problem is that they chose prototypes that don't seem to work very well around sharp TT curves - and there are plenty of videos out there that have highlighted these issues. As this is TT's USP it is a major drawback. Diesels probably wouldn't have had this problem as they tend to be technically simpler to produce and have bogies wheelbases that are shorter.

 

Was LNER the best choice? I suspect (judging by exhibitions) GWR has the biggest following, then LMS.  ModelRail Scotland suggests modern image might now have the largest following of all. Would a 66, 37, 158 and an 08 been a better start?

 

There is so much competition for enthusiasts cash these days that without a meaningful range, British TT looks very vulnerable - especially as it is dependent on one company that has been struggling in recent years.

 

I'm not trying to upset those who are passionate about TT - good luck to you - these are just my personal reasons for looking very closely at the scale and then deciding it wasn't for me.

[Dunsignalling]

The difficulty of widening the prototypical appeal of TT:120 was inevitable from the beginning. It can only be quickened by sales of what Hornby are offering generating sufficient revenue to invest in new product faster than their initial budgeting for development of the scale anticipated.

 

TBH, at the present pace, I'm far too old to wait for even a basic range of Southern stuff to emerge. and will sticking with OO, where many of my wants have already been satisfied, often by Hornby. 

 

I'm currently downsizing my "collection" to reflect the sort of layout that is achievable at home rather than contributing stock to exhibition layouts, so  I'll be selling much more than I buy from now on and I lack the space to even dabble in a second scale without compromising my "Plan A". 

 

As others have said, TT:120 will continue to rely mainly on Train Set/Rule One customers for a few more years yet unless Hornby step up the pace of introductions and/or others join the r-t-r market.   

 

This is less to do with any virtues (or vices) that TT:120 may have, than the fact that any new scale, when set against much broader selections of models available in N and OO, will to struggle to attract customers with prototypical allegiances that differ from Hornby's priorities.    

 

Only time will tell, but even if TT:120 becomes a soar-away success, it won't offer even half of what I already own in OO for at least a half century, and I'll be long gone by then....

 

John

[Porfuera]

50 minutes ago, fezza said:

I made the broadly the same comment as I'm still baffled by Hornby's strategy a year on. I would have expected some of the gaps to be filled by now or for there to be clear announcements from Hornby suggesting they will be. struggling in recent years.

 

IIRC the original plan was to complete a phase every six months or so but for many reasons that have already been done to death that plan didn't work out. If it had done then I think things would be looking much better - it still might not be the cohesive range that some people want but there would be a broader selection in which many people could find something that suited them.

 

And Hornby aren't the only ones to suffer from these production problems - I'm still waiting for Heljan's Class 02 that was announced in September 2020, which is now almost four-and-a-half years ago. So in comparison I think Hornby are doing pretty well in the sixteen months since TT:120 was announced.

 

54 minutes ago, fezza said:

Would a 66, 37, 158 and an 08 been a better start?

 

We will never know but surely that would completely alienate people who want steam locos - would that be wise? I doubt it. And judging by the way that the current two sets repeatedly sold out I'd say that those were a good choice. In any case it is only the 158 that doesn't seem to be on the TT:120 radar - originally the 66 should have been here at least six months ago and the 37 would have been some time this year as well as some other diesels and more steam locos, too. But obviously that won't happen now and people need to be patient.

 

And surely Hornby are basing their TT:120 lineup on their sales figures from their 00 range? They will know what sells best for them but in addition they look like they are trying to produce a bit of something for everyone in order to try to attract a wide range of buyers rather than concentrating on a small sector of the market and ignoring everyone else.

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

The other problem is that they chose prototypes that don't seem to work very well around sharp TT curves - and there are plenty of videos out there that have highlighted these issues. 

 

Was LNER the best choice? I suspect (judging by exhibitions) GWR has the biggest following, then LMS.  

 

There were issues with some of the Pacifics (not all) early on and simple fixes are also shown on videos online, or Hornby will fix them for you themselves. Like the track "issue" something that's been blown up out of all proportion.

 

Yes I'd agree with you regarding overall popularity of the Big Four companies. But then you need to ask yourself which are the most famous British steam engines? Answer Flying Scotsman and Mallard! Hence their choice for locos that will sell well to launch the scale. Judging by those sales they are right.

[Dunsignalling]

55 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Yes I'd agree with you regarding overall popularity of the Big Four companies. But then you need to ask yourself which are the most famous British steam engines? Answer Flying Scotsman and Mallard! Hence their choice for locos that will sell well to launch the scale. Judging by those sales they are right.

 

But many devotees of the other Big Three may be looking at Hornby rehashing their perennial obsessions, think "same old, same old; I'll wait until they do something I want", and turn away...

 

Leave potential demand unfulfilled for too long, and many will lose interest altogether.

 

Edited February 27 by Dunsignalling
punctuation

[MartinRS]

6 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

 

 

You better not check the Hornby website next month... The classic BR HST is on its way! And MK 3s should be in the shipment, but they just haven't added them to the website yet. They'll be there over the next few days. And you're right about there being one powered locomotive and a dummy. 

 

One place where I'll readily concede Hornby made a mistake, was in relation to the 08 liveries. I have absolutely nothing against the DB AG livery (in fact, it's one of my favorite liveries!), but it should have been lower down on the priority list early on. Doing the 08's earlier incarnations should have been the priority. The three liveries could have been Black with early British Railways crest, Green with late British Railways crest, and BR Blue TOPS. This simple change would have been allowed the 08 to pair nicely with the A3s (Trigo, Night Hawk)  and A4s (Falcon, William Whitelaw, Silver King).

 

But ultimately, there's no indication that this mistake has harmed the scale in any appreciable way. People love A1s, A3s, and A4s. And TT120 allows people to run them more easily with long formations. The green 08 with the late British Railways crest is coming later this year. Then you'll be able to run William Whitelaw, Trigo, and the Green 08 together. The J94 is probably one of the two 0-6-0Ts that had entered tooling last March, so you'll also be able to add the J94 to the scene in late 2024/early 2025. 

 

The scale is coming along nicely! 

Aargh!!! Sorry about that. I'm assent rich but cash poor at the moment and bogged down in a bureaucratic nightmare. If I do miss out on the early 125 at least I'll be able to console myself that it's not green. Oh well.

 

I agree with your opinion on the Class 08 introduction apart from the bit about DB AG, whatever that is! My own interest in BR stock ended when they introduced of the blue large logo livery. If I'm honest I lament the introduction of yellow warning panels to previously bewhiskered DMUs! The Class 08 will open-up a whole new range of layouts that can be built with far more interesting operating potential.

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

But many devotees of the other Big Three may be looking at Hornby rehashing their perennial obsessions, think "same old, same old", I'll wait until they do something I want and turn away...

 

Agreed - and you could apply the same argument to steam vs modern image or big four vs BR or whatever. But does that really matter? Are Hornby aiming at devotees anyway or are they aiming at the train set / Rule 1 market? Which is the larger sector?

 

It is sometimes said that RMweb isn't really representative of the model railway market as a whole so perhaps it doesn't matter what people here think - our individual views are probably skewed by what we want rather than what will sell to the general public, who may not worry too much as long as it runs well and looks pretty while it is going round and round in circles. And if they are happy with that and it sells train sets then I'd say that's a good thing because it will introduce more people to the hobby.

 

Edited February 27 by Porfuera
Spelling

[Dunsignalling]

50 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Agreed - and you could apply the same argument to steam vs modern image or big four vs BR or whatever. But does that really matter? Are Hornby aiming at devotees anyway or are they aiming at the train set / Rule 1 market? Which is the larger sector?

 

It is sometimes said that RMweb isn't really representative of the model railway market as a whole so perhaps it doesn't matter what people here think - our individuals views are probably skewed by what we want rather than what will sell to the general public, who may not worry too much as long as it runs well and looks pretty while it is going round and round in circles. And if they are happy with that and it sells train sets then I'd say that's a good thing because it will introduce more people to the hobby.

Perhaps the Train Set/Rule One market will be enough on its own, perhaps not.

 

However, I doubt most Train setters will buy multiple Hornby A3s/A4s in TT:120 the way their OO collectors soak them up.

 

Their introduction of new subjects (whether of interest to me or not) is beginning to look way too slow. If the big LNER stuff really is more popular than everything else combined, Hornby will need four or five new locos to keep sales going when demand for their obvious targets does start to decline. 

Edited February 27 by Dunsignalling

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

But many devotees of the other Big Three may be looking at Hornby rehashing their perennial obsessions, think "same old, same old; I'll wait until they do something I want", and turn away...

 

Leave potential demand unfulfilled for too long, and many will lose interest altogether.

 

 

Did you miss that big green thing on the previous page and the LMS coaches?

 

 

 

Jason

[Pmorgancym]

Really surprised there isn't a HST train set, that's been a Hornby staple for almost 50 years, 2 powers 2 then later 1 coach.  I woukd have thought everyone who wants a NE Pacific pretty much has one now!

[MartinRS]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Only time will tell, but even if TT:120 becomes a soar-away success, it won't offer even half of what I already own in OO for at least a half century, and I'll be long gone by then....

The range of OO products has grown during the period when classical manufacturing dominated the scene. TT:120 has come along in an era when 3D printing is available, even at home. Have a look at these threads:

 

 

 

As I understand it, both of the above models are being designed with correct scale chassis. My own view is that providing modellers are willing to accept compromises on things like wheelbase lengths it is more likely that a wide range of body-shells will become available (driven by demand from TT:120 modellers, rather than well catered for OO 'scale compromisers') once we see a larger availability of different wheelbase lengths of both steam and diesel chassis. AI might also play a part in the conversion of plans into 3D printer ready data.

 

Another movement, and I don't know when it started is the concept of creative commons. Have a look at these fantastic models from Iron Mink, and remember, once a design has been released into the public domain or by a similar licence it can't be revoked. I stumbled across a number of 3D railway files at archive.org if you have any concerns about web pages and their contents disappearing.

 

Now here's a thought. What if someone was to recreate the adjustable chassis found in this publication. https://archive.org/details/model-railway-and-engineering-catalogue/mode/2up I can't give a page number as I'm using my mobile as a W-Fi hotspot and it looks like my telco has blocked the site.

 

Stay with us for another couple of decades and I think you will be surprised at what is available.

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Yes, I remember it well. (It did take GF several re-designs of the pannier's motor and gearing for them to get-it-right though, and those N Gauge sprung U bend couplings turned me off UK outline N.). I even leaned towards modelling the GWR myself back in the 70s. (Don't worry; I'm cured and have fully recovered having discovered something Greater (Central Railway)).

 

I think it would be difficult not to agree that the railways, and railway modelling have changed since the 70s. BR Blue (small logo TOPS) represented modern image back then, preceded by BR Blue (pre-TOPS),  preceded by British Railways (ferret and dartboard) etc., back to pre-grouping. I don't even know how many different post BR Blue liveries there are.

 

If Hornby concentrated on just one period and just one company then many modellers would feel excluded.  This issue was raised earlier in the thread. It's just a matter of time before you will be able to run trains of your your preferred type, or you could extend your interest or even engage in the suspension of disbelief. This subject has cropped up several times now. We are in danger of going round and round in circles, just like Nellie's pick-up goods, my very first train set. Didn't you make exactly the same point back in January 2023?

 

 

Twenty years maybe? But there's a catch 22 in operation.

 

TT:120, for now, lives or dies as a commercial scale with Hornby's commitment to it.

 

Hornby’s commitment to it lives and dies with demand for their products being maintained when sales of the initial releases start to level off/decline.

 

As well as the Duchess, they need large GWR and SR locos in the range PDQ, not beyond Year 4 which seems to be the current position.

 

 

Edited February 27 by Dunsignalling

[PeterStiles]

5 hours ago, Chris M said:

it won't be possible to build a serious model railway for the foreseeable future

So how come those people building TT:3 exhibition layouts in the late 1950s managed with even less? They may not have had static-grass and 300 colours of paint available and 3d printers, but they made model railways.

[MartinRS]

7 hours ago, Chris M said:

Until the range increases dramatically TT:120 will be very much a train set scale; it won't be possible to build a serious model railway for the foreseeable future. I still haven't got over the Dawlish layout running nothing but LNER pacifics. Could have been a good layout if they had done it in N and used suitable stock.  The HSTs and 50s will improve that layout no end but that layout will still only have two classes of relevant motive power and there doesn't appear to be anything else suitable in the planning stages. You just can't make a proper model railway from the stock announced so far. TT:120 remains ideal for train sets though.

 

It will be interesting to see whether other manufacturers bring out any locos. It would be a big risk but it could just be a good move. 

Speak for yourself. I'm sure, with the obvious range of knowledge, skills and experience that's apparent looking at what some people have built and displayed here on RMweb, in all sorts of scales, that a serious (however you define that) model railway can be built in any scale.

 

Would you post your comment here on a thread about a scale with even less commercial support than TT:120?

 

There is a thread debating what defines a train set and what defines a model railway on RmWeb. Here's an intresting contribution.

 

 

Edited February 27 by MartinRS
Spelling

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

Really surprised there isn't a HST train set, that's been a Hornby staple for almost 50 years, 2 powers 2 then later 1 coach.  I woukd have thought everyone who wants a NE Pacific pretty much has one now!

 

There is an HST set in the catalogue:

 

TT1004M LNER East Coast Mainline HST  Electric Train Set - Era 11

 

But I guess the reason they started with two Pacific sets is that Blink Bonny and William Whitelaw share a common chassis (although I haven't checked), so sharing the tooling thereby keeping development costs down when they didn't know how well TT:120 was going to do.

 

And I hate to disappoint you but before the HST set arrives there is apparently yet another NE Pacific set on the way in April - see the following link to @GenericRMWebUsername 's post on the previous page:

 

TT1003M British Pullman Electric Train Set - Era 3

 

I guess Hornby reckon you can't have too many Pacifics, although I'd prefer to see more new stuff 😁

 

 

Edited February 27 by Porfuera

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Did you miss that big green thing on the previous page and the LMS coaches?

 

 

 

Jason

No. 

[Johan DC]

59 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

I guess Hornby reckon you can't have too many Pacifics, although I'd prefer to see more new stuff 

 

 

It seems thé 'Easterner' won't come back. 

One LNER Pacific less. 

 

 

[MartinRS]

10 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

This thread runs on for nearly three hundred pages. Similar questions are going to be asked again and again as few people really want to read the thread from the beginning and make notes. Searching for information can be difficult in such messy text, as you often get lots of irrelevant results. Perhaps AI searching will make things easier.

 

And what's wrong with asking the question again or making the point again?

 

Things change. New people join in with fresh information or ideas. 

 

I still think AY Mod's point from January last year is valid. We don't seem to have a clear answer. The point wouldn't really matter if Hornby had followed up with lots of other rolling stock quickly. But after a year or so, it still does. 

 

 

 

 

 

What's the point in those not modelling in TT:120 making repetitive negative comments? It's not as if TT:120 modellers are posting dismissive comments about the poor gauge to scale relationship every time a new OO product is announced.

 

I think I covered why Hornby failed to followed up with lots of other rolling stock quickly in response to your earlier suggestion that Hornby have increased bargaining power with Chinese producers.

 

 

[TT100 Diesels]

2 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

So how come those people building TT:3 exhibition layouts in the late 1950s managed with even less? They may not have had static-grass and 300 colours of paint available and 3d printers, but they made model railways.

 

2 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Speak for yourself. I'm sure, with the obvious range of knowledge, skills and experience that's apparent looking at what some people have built and displayed here on RMweb, in all sorts of scales, that a serious (however you define that) model railway can be built in any scale.

 

Would you post your comment here on a thread about a scale with even less commercial support than TT:120?

 

There is a thread debating what defines a train set and what defines a model railway on RmWeb. Here's an intresting contribution.

 

 

 

Firstly, thank you MartinRS for your implied kind words about my modelling in 3mm scale. 

 

I have a passing interest in TT120 myself, I use 120 scale accessories from Westhill Wagon Works on my 3mm layout, and am encouraged how the 120 ecosystem grows and can be useful in an adjacent non commercial scales. I might be tempted with a few Hornby rtr locos in due course as I can plonk them on my 12mm gauge track (but most likely run them with the 3mm stock off the layout).

 

I sometimes pop over to this thread, but don't have any strong opinion about Hornby, wish lists etc. To me, Hornby are a business so major on what sells, makes sense to me. I can see how it can frustrate folk who continue to wait for xxx loco or yyy coaches in phase 10 etc, but that comes with the territory of relying on rtr whatever the scale. And when I look across the scales at just what is available, I think it its phenomenal, surely we have never had it so good? Especially considering how the outside world is teetering on the brink........

 

But back to this thread and the circular arguments, I would say to anyone genuinely interested in 120 and modelling in that scale would probably better off looking at the scale specific area of 2.5mm TT120 where there are some really great innovative modellers bashing away at projects.

 

And as Peter Stiles has quoted above, TT3 / 3mm is existing and thrives without any rtr commercial support, so I would say with all the innovations I am seeing on the 120 specific area, and the current and no doubt future 120 commercial ecosystems, #modelling# in 120 is only going to expand. 

 

Also, it has occurred to me that perhaps the immense fidelity of current rtr may be doing modelling a disservice, putting folk off making their own stuff, certainly, I sometimes feel that, my best efforts in 3mm semi scratch build / kits etc don't compare with the fidelity of commercial rtr, but perhaps that is drifting off topic.

 

Well, that's my two pennorth....

 

TT100 Diesels

 

Edited February 27 by TT100 Diesels
Posted too soon had not finushed writing the post

[britishcolumbian]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

TT:120, for now, lives or dies as a commercial scale with Hornby's commitment to it.

No. It's out of the bag, it's here to stay as long as model railways are a thing.

 

Why? If your assumption were true, North American outline TT would've died out in the 1960s... and yet it stuck around for decades as a very niche thing, and now it's having a resurgence. And NA TT survived without the benefit of 3D printing and such. UK TT:120 is here to stay... the only question is, will it become bigger and continue to enjoy RTR support, or will it become a niche thing like NA TT or TT3.

[Dunsignalling]

31 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

No. It's out of the bag, it's here to stay as long as model railways are a thing.

 

Why? If your assumption were true, North American outline TT would've died out in the 1960s... and yet it stuck around for decades as a very niche thing, and now it's having a resurgence. And NA TT survived without the benefit of 3D printing and such. UK TT:120 is here to stay... the only question is, will it become bigger and continue to enjoy RTR support, or will it become a niche thing like NA TT or TT3.

Note my use of the word commercial, which covers exactly the point made in your final sentence.

 

The pace at which Hornby is developing the TT:120 range seems to have slackened somewhat. That may well be due to circumstances beyond their control, but it doesn't eliminate the potential hazard.

 

This sort of hiccup in OO is commonplace but relatively meaningless. The volume of other stuff coming from Hornby and others means there is plenty of other new product maintaining OO spending. 

 

Any hiatus in growing a small range in a "new" scale that has yet to become "mainstream" carries an altogether greater level of risk. 

 

  

Edited February 27 by Dunsignalling