Hornby coaches derailing

[barney121e]

Hi

 

Just wondering if someone can help. I have a couple of Hornby coaches. They are very light and when i try and run them on a point, they keep derailing unless going straight ahead. However if i apply pressure to the top of the coach, they seem much happier.

 

Do i need to add weight to the coaches, or is there anything else i need to do.

[Derekl]

I weight coaches to about 150 gm, which seems to help running. I don't know if it will sort this out, because there may be other problems, but it is worth a try. And presumably someone will come along to tell us why 150 gm is wrong, but you will then have to take your pick.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Derekl
Correct error

[barney121e]

14 minutes ago, Derekl said:

I weight coaches to about 150 gm, which seems to help running. I don't know if it will sort this out, because there may be other problems, but it is worth a try. And presumably someone will come along to tell us why 150 gm is wrong, but you will then have to take your pick.

What do you use to weight coaches?

[Derekl]

I have a big lump of lead from which I cut little pieces off (taking lots of precautions, for obvious reasons) and put those wherever is convenient - end vestibules usually works. I paint them over wherever they are.

You can also use liquid lead, from Squires or Eileen's Emporium - this is not actually lead, but is reasonably heavy. You would need to find somewhere in the underframe to park that so not visible on a sideways view.

Eileen's Emporium advertise sheet lead for sale, which might be convenient, but I haven't tried it. I imagine i isn't lead, although if it is, one has to be a bit very careful.

[great central]

18 minutes ago, Derekl said:

I have a big lump of lead from which I cut little pieces off (taking lots of precautions, for obvious reasons) and put those wherever is convenient - end vestibules usually works. I paint them over wherever they are.

You can also use liquid lead, from Squires or Eileen's Emporium - this is not actually lead, but is reasonably heavy. You would need to find somewhere in the underframe to park that so not visible on a sideways view.

Eileen's Emporium advertise sheet lead for sale, which might be convenient, but I haven't tried it. I imagine i isn't lead, although if it is, one has to be a bit very careful.

 

Don't stick liquid lead in with PVA as in time it all expands and your coach is damaged. 

 

Edit: Good cheap source of weight is the pick and mix washers from Wilko, assuming you've got one within reach 

Edited November 14, 2022 by great central
Add last paragraph

[Dagworth]

19 minutes ago, Derekl said:

I imagine i isn't lead, although if it is, one has to be a bit very careful.

A lot of unnecessary fear here, lead is poisonous yes, but as long as you wash your hands after handling it you really are not going to come to any serious harm from using it to weight some toy trains.

 

I use a 60/40 mixture of tin and lead almost every day of my life with no specific safety precautions other than to not put it in my mouth.

 

Andi

[33C]

Presumably they are unmodified to start with, so I would look closely for tight spots on the bogie pivot or any underframe detail that may have shifted and is catching the bogie frame. Any plastic flash on the mouldings? Are/is the coach(es) assembled square and not twisted, (sun/heat warping)? Are the wheel sets to gauge and sitting square in the bogie(s)? Are the couplings fouling the solebar? Are your points flat on the board? Good luck...

[RobinofLoxley]

Its also possible to obtain lead weights in self adhesive form, in various different sized rectangular shapes, so that it can be easily positioned. I havnt tried any myself. I would be checking the track laying very carefully before any other action. Extra weight all has to be pulled.

[RFS]

Rectangular lead curtain weights like these on Ebay, for example, are very useful. 

[CEINEWYDD]

Start by eliminating variables - direction of travel, pushed or pulled, does an attached vehicle have an impact.  I would check the back to back on the wheels, and that the wheels "run tru" - i.e. no wobble.  Does the problem appear on only one point (i.e. the point is the problem) or on multiple....?    go through the actions suggested by 33C above.   Have fun.

[barney121e]

Thanks for all the replies. Will give things a try. The derail on all the points but if i push down on them they seem happy enough hence my thinking they might need weight.

 

But will check wheels etc to ensure they are working ok.

[RobinofLoxley]

If you are pushing down on the coach you are also pushing down on the point, which may be flattening it out with respect to surrounding track. You are suppressing the coach trying to jump out of the rails, which can happen near the frog (track spec dependent) as the gauge is slightly different there.

[micklner]

Always check the Wheels  backs to backs first with a decent gauge, also  ensure the are not wobbling when spun. Hornby wheels are poor in these areas . Also the wheel treads for gunge.

Weight should be a last resort ,unless the Hornby fitted weight is missing.

Edited November 14, 2022 by micklner

[john new]

Are they 2nd hand? I ask as how old the coaches are and how new the points may be the cause. Some of the older Tri-ang Hornby wheel sets have quite thick flanges which don’t like going through modern points. The problem one I had which did that on one of the club layouts I used to run it on didn’t bump on the chairs like some Lima one’s did but occasionally derailed on points.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by john new
Auto correct corrections!

[russ p]

Hornby coaches are notorious for back to backs been out of tolerance.  Self centering couplings can also snag and cause derailment.  I've actually lubricated mine with silicone spray

Self centering couplings need to go in tha worst inventions ever thread 

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Its also possible to obtain lead weights in self adhesive form, in various different sized rectangular shapes, so that it can be easily positioned. I havnt tried any myself. I would be checking the track laying very carefully before any other action. Extra weight all has to be pulled.

 

Car wheel balancing weights are useful, you can get them in graduated sizes and nowadays they are self adhesive.

[Johan DC]

7 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Car wheel balancing weights are useful, you can get them in graduated sizes and nowadays they are self adhesive.

I got a whole load of these for free from the tire center last time I went for new ones. Used ones, but with a little cleaning as good as new, Perfect size and easely placed with some double sided tape. 

And don't forget to wash your hands! (don't you always have to do that?)

[Derekl]

15 hours ago, Dagworth said:

A lot of unnecessary fear here, lead is poisonous yes, but as long as you wash your hands after handling it you really are not going to come to any serious harm from using it to weight some toy trains.

Quite - that was the point I was making - perhaps I should just have said "wash your hands thoroughly soon after touching". There may be people reading this who were unaware.

But I agree, it is going to need a fair amount of exposure to lead to do damage.

[33C]

4 hours ago, Johan DC said:

I got a whole load of these for free from the tire center last time I went for new ones. Used ones, but with a little cleaning as good as new, Perfect size and easely placed with some double sided tape. 

And don't forget to wash your hands! (don't you always have to do that?)

Split shot from fishing tackle shops is great for adding weight in tiny and awkward spaces. Many sizes and cheap too.

[ejstubbs]

12 hours ago, Hroth said:

Car wheel balancing weights are useful, you can get them in graduated sizes and nowadays they are self adhesive.

 

They tend to be steel, rather than lead (the old type with a bendable clip that attaches over the edge of the wheel rim) these days, don't they?  Certainly the ones I have are.  Not that I've found that to be a significant problem in the stock I've tweaked weight-wise, but it might be problematic with anything that's tight on space, which is where the greater density of lead (~45% more than mild steel) might be helpful.  That would be sheet lead, though, rather than shot which has air space between the pellets.  The densest packing for spheres occupies about 75% of the available space, which would mean shot in the ideal, densest possible packing is only about 8% denser than mild steel.  More random packing (which is what you're most likely to achieve) can end up occupying less than 65% of the available space, which would mean that it's ~8% less dense than mild steel.  OTOH shot is easier to get in to awkward-to-access or oddly-shaped spaces than sheet (not that lead sheet is particularly difficult to cut).

[Il Grifone]

Wheel balance weights are one of the victims of the 'lead free' era.

I got about a square foot sheet of roofing lead on eBay for around £6 not so long ago. There's still most of it left! I had investigated the price of a roll of the stuff - It was most definitely not 'Grifone friendly!

 

Self-centring couplings rather defeat the object and the spring is invariably too strong. IMHO the coupling should be fixed to the bogie and extended outwards by the guide slot in the floor.

They don't seem to be in agreement over the shape of the guide slot. I've seen U and V shaped and an inverted V.

I would have thought a U shape so that extension only occurs on extreme curvature. Are there any other opinions on this?

I'm finally doing my Tri-ang SR utility van (after owning it for sixty five years and acouple of previous attempts*!) and intend to fit it with extending couplings, but before I cut slots in the floor....

The grooves between the planking are portrayed as raised ridges and I'm undecided whether to shave them off and cut grooves of just darken them and pretend not to notice.

Buying a new Hornby model is out of the question in today's economic climate!

* New bogies, gangways and roof ventilators and a couple of repaints

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

Remember to report back what you tried and what solved it.

I found back to backs solved a lot of issues for me.

[DCB]

On 14/11/2022 at 18:53, barney121e said:

Hi

Just wondering if someone can help. I have a couple of Hornby coaches. They are very light and when i try and run them on a point, they keep derailing unless going straight ahead. However if i apply pressure to the top of the coach, they seem much happier.

 

Do i need to add weight to the coaches, or is there anything else i need to do.

I have a wide variety of Hornby coaches and  would not describe any as very light.  How old are yours and has someone removed the ballast weights?    We had to take the weights out of a set of Hawkesworths as theywere ridiculiusly heavy. Some Hornby wheels have incorrect back to back.  Some older plastic axle ones can't  be adjusted and should be binned, the Late 1960s ones are fine, and the replacement ones a PITA as the back to closes up as you try to fit them, and the tyres are too narrow, narrower than most other RTR and give far more trouble than Airfix, Mainline ,Bachmann etc     

 

On 15/11/2022 at 12:43, Il Grifone said:

.

I got about a square foot sheet of roofing lead on eBay for around £6 not so long ago. There's still most of it left! I had investigated the price of a roll of the stuff - It was most definitely not 'Grifone friendly!

   Like Il Griffone I use roofing lead.  Not sure where it came from but I cut it to size with scissors drill it and use it to replace ferrous weights which sadly swell up when they get wet and rusty. and that can severely damage coaches and wagons. I have a wheel balancer and a pile of new and used wheel balance weights but I don't use them for weighting  models, except when I melt them and cast weights in wooden moulds, they generally are just too awkward to secure  . 

[40034_Nick]

I got these a few years back and they are brilliant !! i have used them on many a coach or goods wagon

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133382392049

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134286972189

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by 40034_Nick

[57xx]

On 14/11/2022 at 19:49, great central said:

Don't stick liquid lead in with PVA as in time it all expands and your coach is damaged. 

 

As Derek mentioned, Liquid Lead (brand name) is not actually lead so is fine with PVA. It's actual lead shot that can have problems, but that is dependant on the type of PVA you use. Non-Acidic PVA should be fine assuming the research that has been done is accurate.