Next big step for 3d printing

[rue_d_etropal]

When I first got started in 3d printing design, it was suggested to me that within a very short time there would be a 3d print facility on every high street, like there used to be photo printing shops. That has not happened, and may still be a way off, but I keep seeing people here either asking for design help or actual designs to print off. Granted there are a lot of designs available free to download, but who is going to spend a lot of time doing a lot of designs, just to give them away. 

It needs a bit more overall management, and maybe either a new group or some of the existing specialist groups to take control. By this I mean either designing or be buying up designs . 

I am prepared to offer such a group all of my designs , for a price, and then that group could then supply those designs to their members. I could then retire properly and get on with other projects.

[Blandford1969]

One question would be whether you would use Shapeways or someone else. Unfortunately all the add Ons from the original prince you see on the screen make purchasing through them just too expensive. Taking one example of a coach - on the page its £64, in the basket it then jumps to £77 , then an additional £4 for processing and a wopping £15 for postage. Sadly one coach body without a set of frames at £96, £22 above the price on the screen is just not going to get me parting with money and I guess that will be the case with others.

[55020]

I must confess I'm in a different space.  I have my own SLA printer, so have no desire to pay the extortionate prices that Shapeways are asking.  I am happy to spend time and gain some satisfaction from creating my own STLs (designs).  I am also happy to share those STLs for free if others were happy to share their designs in a similar manner.  I do what I do for pleasure, not for profit.

[stewartingram]

I must admit I've decided not to purchase a number of prints for that very reason. I'm not paying for all the Shapeways extras - I'll do without. Find a cheaper printer and you'll have a selection of orders from me.

[Mike Harvey]

I think that the international nature of Shapeways customers, but its limited range of production points, is always going to require add-ons to the base price to cover sales/value added tax and shipping. After the first experience, a buyer should be clued in to the add-ons, but it seems to be a recurring complaint, even from people who have experienced it before. Curious that it seems people do not learn, even though the add-ons are itemised. I have never understood the processing fee, which feels like a direct charge for an overhead cost of people/machines.

 

A few years back I produced a comprehensive range of designs for SNCF Corail compartment coaches in N 1/160. Most if not all are in my Shapeways shop and sell in reasonable amounts. The range includes appropriate interiors, chassis, gangways, but require the builder to buy bogies/wheels available as proprietary spares, and couplers. The original designs also relied on glazing from an (inexpensive) donor coach which could also provides the chassis, bogies , couplers and interiors.

 

My personal circumstances changed suddenly and unexpectedly. The original design work was for my own benefit in being able to obtain accurate models not available elsewhere. I did not want it to be lost. So I decided to make the designs available free of charge through a couple of interested model groups and that has resulted in many people printing them at home or at a commercial print shop close to their home. 

 

The Recreation 21 range is huge and I have the greatest respect for what Simon has produced which in the main are bodies to give a builder a significant head start on their model.  I do not think that there us a simple or one-size solution to conserve it for the future. Whilst some countries have developed a local print shop culture, the dimensional fidelity and surface finish requirements in model railways do not lend themselves well to a plug and play print shop.

 

If anyone wants my free files to print, the starting point is here:- https://tinyurl.com/ys7dzd8z

[KeithHC]

I think it comes down to three different approaches. First we have the experts of 3D design who to get recognisation for there works they need to be able to control access to their files like Simon above and others. Then there are the people who have a printer but cannot make the requisite files. Also there are those that have a printer and the ability to produce the files for their own use. I fit into the owning a printer and learning design. So for me the ability to buy a file to get started is also of interest. 
 

Keith

[Din]

Your main issue is simply one of price point. You've certainly spent hours upon your own designs and paying yourself "properly" means each design could run to hundreds of pounds because, quite simply, when its out of your hands its out of your hands so its better to be properly compensated before they stop being "yours". 

 

The one side benefit of Shapeways (and hopefully my own when it launches next year) is the files are somewhat "controlled" in that they can't be reissued unscruplously by a random customer. (It sadly does happen elsewhere in the D&D creator community) and most independant designers simply don't have the money for legal proceedings.

[rue_d_etropal]

I was talking to someone about security recently, and they said there was a way of adding a (random?) I'd code to a print file so that it could not be copied of passed on to anyone else.  I have asked about this type of idea before but this was the first time someone said it was already an option. 

Having said that I would still prefer to go down the route I have suggested. Apart from the work involved and the fact I hope to be around for a while, I am passed retirement age, and if I was to go suddenly , my designs might be lost forever and I also have other plans, not related to model railways directly.

What I have noticed is designers having a particular interest, subject or scale, but then get asked to offer either new designs or do resizing. This happened to me , and actually opened doors for me and helped me improve my designs and make them easier to modify . The problem is that this means my collection spans a wide range of interest, and suspect anyone interested in on part is not interested in other parts, in particular scale. This is why I suggested the various specialist scale societies got together and took over the complete range. As to how they then split it up would be up to them. 

One reason I went with Shapeways was its history, in particular the way it started with help from Phillips. The history of Phillips is fascinating and they made decisions about how to work globally. I think this might be one reason why there are production based in USA as otherwise there might have been tricky trading rules, something some in our hobby forget about, but then grumble that there are extra charges etc. Unfortunately every country is very protective of its own markets but still wants it to be easy to export to other countries, and it is not getting easier.

Now I am thinking of contacting various publications with my ideas for future of my collection of designs. 

[Nyeti]

A little late to the discussion but I thought I'd add my tuppence.

 

I'd certainly be interested as a customer.  I own a 3D printer myself and while I do some of my own CAD, I'd prefer to pay a designer directly for the use of one of their STLs rather than pay the rather steep fees for Shapeways or similar to print it for me.

I've bought STLs in the past for wargaming and been satisfied.  For railway models I'd do the same; I'll admit that many of the Rue d'Étropal range are tempting but would be more so if I could print at home.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Nyeti

[rue_d_etropal]

At the moment there is no easy way to set up to sell STL files, securely. This is reason I would like a group to take over. With so many different scales ideally a combination of different groups and societies. 

Only downside would be probable discontinuation of any new designs, as this seems to often be the case when established ranges are taken over, unless there is actually someone willing to do design work.

[Covkid]

On 25/11/2022 at 19:42, Blandford1969 said:

One question would be whether you would use Shapeways or someone else. Unfortunately all the add Ons from the original prince you see on the screen make purchasing through them just too expensive. Taking one example of a coach - on the page its £64, in the basket it then jumps to £77 , then an additional £4 for processing and a wopping £15 for postage. Sadly one coach body without a set of frames at £96, £22 above the price on the screen is just not going to get me parting with money and I guess that will be the case with others.

I have hivvered and hovvered over Shapeways products for a while, and reading this thread I have once again looked at Simon's work on the Shapeways site.  I really fancy the pair of GRCW class 100 DMU cars so went to the quote page for just the DMBS car.  The basic price is listed as $114 with $5.69 processing.  The cheapest shipping is $17.99 but my computer found me promo codes  reducing the deal by $17.95 - effectively free shippng.

But then 19.96 VAT brings the total for one car body to   $119.73.

 

I am in no way at all criticising Simon for his hard work and need to market his product, but I don't have the confidence to lash out a hundred quid on a product I cannot even see a photo of before I press "pay".  Perhaps someone can direct me to online photos if there are any so that I can make an informed judgement.  FWIW I am planning to cannibalise a Bachmann class 108 for the underpinnings, and it's cab ends for another project. 

 

 

[rue_d_etropal]

Not sure about this one, but a number of my designs have been featured in magazine articles. As I have done designs in wide range of scales, I can see which scales are best value. Unfortunately Oo Scale often looks relatively expensive as price is based partly on space used and a lot of space is wasted. Also Oo is right at limit for many home printers, although I have come across some people with modified printers that can print a G1 coach in one piece. 

I think there is a big market for STL downloads but I would prefer to leave the handling of that to others. 

[billbedford]

58 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I think there is a big market for STL downloads but I would prefer to leave the handling of that to others. 

 

Disagree. I think there might be a reasonable market for an app that could assemble coaches from a set of templates and output to STL. Think of a sort of Templot for coaches. But stand-alone STLs are too inflexible a format to appeal to more than a minority of modellers. 

[nick_bastable]

1 hour ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Not sure about this one, but a number of my designs have been featured in magazine articles. As I have done designs in wide range of scales, I can see which scales are best value. Unfortunately Oo Scale often looks relatively expensive as price is based partly on space used and a lot of space is wasted. Also Oo is right at limit for many home printers, although I have come across some people with modified printers that can print a G1 coach in one piece. 

I think there is a big market for STL downloads but I would prefer to leave the handling of that to others. 

I think one major issue is a basic home resin printer produces results much better than Shapeways,  personally I would buy a few of your designs if the quality of printing was better  although ideally I would print them myself

[rue_d_etropal]

One advantage I have is that I can actually see what sells, and there does seem to be an appetite for models of real coaches. There also seems to be interest in freelance coaches produced in various railway colours, but how much of that is for modellers and how much is for collectors is difficult to calculate. 

Not everyone wants to assemble a kit or modify a set of parts, but there has always been a large number of modellers who are prepared to adapt, repaint or finish off models. Mainly in the past as there was no option, especially for those who don't feel competent enough to assemble a kit. My approach to design is to find a middle ground which helps people start and also gives them the fulfillment of finishing something. 

Next step is for more people to do home printing, but learning curve for 3d CAD is steep. I am still learning, and it is that that keeps me going as much as anything. 

 

[maridunian]

I'll join this conversation by shamelessly ripping some things I wrote in another place where even mods pile-on whenever Shapeways is mentioned, even on Shapeways boards...

 

Shapeways is more expensive and produces less smooth models than some people can on some home printers. I think everybody knows these facts, but they aren't the whole picture.

For designers like me who arent prepared to give away (or sell) designs without control over copying or derivatives, Shapeways offers me:

• A zero cost, secure eCommerce marketplace, well integrated with Google for discoverability.
• The 'goto' site on which searches for novel railway items are made.
• Unlimited free product listings, regardless of sales frequency, ensuring products are available to small numbers of niche buyers whenever they want to buy.
• Impact and cost free production - no hardware or consumable expenditure, no tuning time, no cleaning time, no garage time.
• Fully managed packaging processes, materials and logistics, paid for by buyers.
• Fully managed returns and complaints/reprints service. (No earache, no unpacking time, no extra garage time, no extra packing time or repeat Post Office time)

Bottom line, because the Shapeways business model works for people like me and others, we keep producing niche items there for ourselves, and other people can keep buying copies. 

 

I have looked into selling my designs online through the makers' marketplace, Etsy. 

 

Open an Etsy shop, upload all your .STL files, and wait for the money to pour in from customers with home printers. Here's an example shop. 

 

The financial model is rather like eBay. You pay a listing fee; they take a commission on each sale. These costs aren't huge and you can price your products to ensure you get a worthwhile return on your effort. Once someone downloads your file of course, they can do pretty much anything with it - whatever legal rights you might retain would cost you a fortune to protect.

 

I decided that for the time being I'd stick with enabling people to buy actual things. Just as RTR shoppers massively outnumber kit(or 3D print) builders, I reckon that kit(or 3D print) builders still outnumber successful home print-makers. 

 

Things can change. Shapeways could fold, or simply abandon offering designers a marketplace. If that happens I'll have to think again, but for now they can carry on cranking out several models a week on my behalf, month after month, year after year whilst I spend my precious time creating new designs.

 

Mike
 

[rue_d_etropal]

Just to add to what Mike says. Shapeways offer a potential worldwide customer base, which would be very be difficult for an individual to set up and maintain. Shapeways was set up with help from Phillips and their extensive knowledge on world wide trading. I think that is one reason for having USA processing in the USA as there can be a lot of extra financial hoops to jump through,(eg insurance) if you manufacture and sell to USA customers. There has been some discussion on this forum about this concerning British companies not being prepared to sell to USA customers, directly or indirectly. 

Similar issues could also arise selling copies of STL files. Often people quietly forget about this, as some also do using software not licenced for commercial use, until problems arise and the financial penalties can be very high. 

It is possible to make STL files available to download via Shapeways, but only for free. If Shapeways were to have facility to allow downloads for a payment then that would be something I might consider. I suspect they have considered it but found there were risks. What is required is someway to only make downloads available to the person who downloads them. There are rumours that this can be done, but I have not found anything official. 

 

[FranksLad]

I design, make, and sell my own 3D printed items for 4mm scale. I’d like to partner with a company that could take the production away from my SLA and FDM printers. However Shapeways isn’t the answer. I’ve heard nothing but negative comments about the quality of the pieces people have bought. I’ve bought small items from them as a kind of “trial” and these were fine, however I’m not in the market for a £96 EMU car especially if it comes back like a banana.

As anyone who has printed resin coach or wagon bodies will testify, it’s a horrible process with sometimes unpredictable results. I guess that’s why many of the companies that offered it have gone. Printing a 4mm scale wagon can be a 4 hour print. How does one make money on those run rates?!

[ikcdab]

On 17/12/2022 at 14:37, rue_d_etropal said:

At the moment there is no easy way to set up to sell STL files, securely.

Why? Scalescenes can sell downloads that you are allowed to print off multiple times.  I see no difference with selling stls on line the same way?

[AndyID]

On 06/01/2023 at 05:09, rue_d_etropal said:

What is required is someway to only make downloads available to the person who downloads them. There are rumours that this can be done, but I have not found anything official.

That would be nice, but it would only be possible if STL interpreters understood some sort of fancy watermark in the STL code. That would require an awful lot of cooperation between printer and software providers. What might motivate them to do that?

[rue_d_etropal]

On 09/01/2023 at 19:47, ikcdab said:

Why? Scalescenes can sell downloads that you are allowed to print off multiple times.  I see no difference with selling stls on line the same way?

And then stop passing files on to others?

In the same way e-magazines can only be downloaded to use on specific readers, there needs to be some way to combine printing software and STL files. 

[Steven B]

IPR on downloadable content that generates a physical object is a huge grey area. Assuming they can't be printed, eMags are relatively simple. However, when a physical object is generated where does the IPR of the originator end?

 

Is sending a Scalescenes PDF to a friend via email any different to printing out a second copy and giving them a hand full of paper?

 

Likewise, if I pay for a STL file to print at home, is there any difference in then passing that file to a friend to print themselves rather than me printing a duplicate and giving them the physical object?

 

 

Steven B.

[billbedford]

I believe there is a function in the ability of the password utility in PDF to limit the use either by numbers printed or time. STL files are never going to have such enhanced security options but 3MF files have that ability, though as far as I can see, only HP has made use of it. 

[FranksLad]

On 09/01/2023 at 19:47, ikcdab said:

Why? Scalescenes can sell downloads that you are allowed to print off multiple times.  I see no difference with selling stls on line the same way?

I was selling downloadable content for Microsoft Train Simulator back as far as 2003 using the open source platform OsCommerce. It is very easy to do with PayPal integration too. You could set up an OSCommerce store in a couple of evenings. However, I get asked about releasing STLs all the time, usually from people who openly boast about making money from Thingiverse downloads. Once you sell that STL, you wave goodbye to potentially hundreds of sales, or worse, hundreds of people printing your intellectual property and making money from it. I design in 3D and sell items to fund this hobby of mine so I can’t give stuff away.

[FranksLad]

6 hours ago, Steven B said:

IPR on downloadable content that generates a physical object is a huge grey area. Assuming they can't be printed, eMags are relatively simple. However, when a physical object is generated where does the IPR of the originator end?

 

Is sending a Scalescenes PDF to a friend via email any different to printing out a second copy and giving them a hand full of paper?

 

Likewise, if I pay for a STL file to print at home, is there any difference in then passing that file to a friend to print themselves rather than me printing a duplicate and giving them the physical object?

 

 

Steven B.

No difference at all, it’s still copyright theft. Someone is freely distributing something you gave to them in exchange for monetary reward. 
Years ago a commercial addon was released for Microsoft Train Simulator with some of my freeware work on it. I had never given permission for that so I sought legal advice and had the product withdrawn. This is no different. Even if you aren’t paid for it, it’s still your intellectual property. The only difference is is that you cannot see the financial impact of your stl files being passed around.