Method of carriage of tinplate (coil?) in Shocvans and after, especially to canning factories.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I would agree with Briuan about the approximate size but some of the tinplate was rectangular, not square.  I don't know f it was the practice at all works but all the sheet tinplate I saw at Ebbw Vale was packaged inside what amounted to a 'parcel' of tinplate which was painted dark blue.  The stillage was built under this but in some cases consisted of no more than a couple of parallel substantial timbers which allowed a pallet truck to life to the stillage and take into into a van.  The stillage was one reason why Shocvans were used because the stillages could collapse if they had a hard shock during transit although this was nota very common occurrence but in any case it was necessary to prevent movement of the stillages and them damaging each other.

 

Some customers took tinplate on the roll and in those cases it was loaded eye-to-sky (i.e.upright) on a similarly built up stillage; the rolls were quite small compared with the equivalent for hot rolled steel coil and weighed much, much, less.  Metalbox normally seem to have taken sheet tinplate but I think one of their factories (Westhoughton??) took material on the roll.   All the export tinplate that I ever saw when working in South Wales was flat cut sheets packaged as I described above.

I thought the blue was a layer of blue waxed paper, but it must be getting on for 50 years ago, and I can't be certain

[C126]

On 20/12/2022 at 14:47, jonhall said:

You could also look at 'Transport Age' magazine- issue 11 (https://www.gersociety.org.uk/images/b__Transport_Age_Contents_List.pdf) it describes the tin manufacture, and the canning.

 

Transport Age is available on DVD form the Great Eastern Society and is a great investment if you want to understand how British Railways and the other nationalised transport companies worked in the 1950's and 60's https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/files-emporium-home/c-23-cd-our-dvds-and-cds/transport-age-and-british-transport-review-dvd

 

Jon

 

A wonderful publication.  Having got the first few printed originals from our collection, I can only endorse @jonhall 's suggestion.  The magazine has the classic 1950's appearance and optimism, with many useful materials-handling photographs.  Essential I should think if modelling this era.

[The Stationmaster]

On 21/12/2022 at 13:42, Fat Controller said:

I thought the blue was a layer of blue waxed paper, but it must be getting on for 50 years ago, and I can't be certain

The stuff at Ebbw Vale was definitely a lot tougher than waxed paper (as could be seen when pallet trucks were sg huffling the stillages around.  It was also meant to be completely weatherproof for shipment traffic.

[jim.snowdon]

An interesting thread, about the movement of tinplate, but it is missing one element. As I understand the business, tinplate went to factories that made cans, eg Metal Box, and it was the finished cans (and lids) that then went from there to the canning factories, where the contents were added. This leads to two quite different needs as far as transport is concerned. Raw tinplate, either as sheets or coil, is heavy stuff (as you might expect) and inclined to be destructive if it gets loose in a wagon. (As an aside, that is what lead the GWR to build a small batch of open wagons specially for tinplate traffic - although the same size as a standard wagon, they were rated at 20T and had the insides of the ends protected with a thick steel plate. Presumably there had been too many instances of badly secured packages of tinplate bursting the ends of wagons.)

Finished cans, on the other hand, are all about bulk and not much weight, but they are still delicate - canning machinery has difficulty working with cans that are out of round or crinkled, so putting pallet loads of them in Shocvans would be sensible.

 

[br2975]

On 16/12/2022 at 14:09, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Transit vans perhaps. 🙄

 

I don't think rolls of tinplate are anywhere near as fragile as Royal Doulton plates, so I'm not clear why a shocvan would be specified.

.

The packs of tinplat are  quite heavy, and prone to sliding about during shunting.

.

The use of 'Shocvans' was more to prevent damage to the wagon itself, than the load.

[Phil Bullock]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

An interesting thread, about the movement of tinplate, but it is missing one element. As I understand the business, tinplate went to factories that made cans, eg Metal Box, and it was the finished cans (and lids) that then went from there to the canning factories, where the contents were added. This leads to two quite different needs as far as transport is concerned. Raw tinplate, either as sheets or coil, is heavy stuff (as you might expect) and inclined to be destructive if it gets loose in a wagon. (As an aside, that is what lead the GWR to build a small batch of open wagons specially for tinplate traffic - although the same size as a standard wagon, they were rated at 20T and had the insides of the ends protected with a thick steel plate. Presumably there had been too many instances of badly secured packages of tinplate bursting the ends of wagons.)

Finished cans, on the other hand, are all about bulk and not much weight, but they are still delicate - canning machinery has difficulty working with cans that are out of round or crinkled, so putting pallet loads of them in Shocvans would be sensible.

 

Always lots of Shocvans around Worcester Jim. Will ask my learned railway friends if the empty tins were loaded in them too….

[br2975]

2 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

........................................................... Raw tinplate, either as sheets or coil, is heavy stuff (as you might expect) and inclined to be destructive if it gets loose in a wagon. (As an aside, that is what lead the GWR to build a small batch of open wagons specially for tinplate traffic - although the same size as a standard wagon, they were rated at 20T and had the insides of the ends protected with a thick steel plate. Presumably there had been too many instances of badly secured packages of tinplate bursting the ends of wagons.)

 

.

The small batch of GW built opens were intended for the carriage of 'tinplate bar' which was long rectangular section strips of metal between 14' and 16' in length.

.

'Tinplate bar' was produced at several steel works around South Wales and transported to the various smaller tinplate works where it was reheated, and then rolled, and folded several times before trimming in order to form the sheets that were then tinplated, packed and sold.

.

There are two pages of instructions on the loading of tinplate bar in open wagons, in the 1936 GWR Rule Book pages 212/213.

.

.

It may also be worth pointing out to those not familiar with the industry that 'Roll Wagons' ( built by both the GWR, and later by BR ) contrary to popular belief, were not intended for the carriage of steel coils, but for the mill rolls that were used in the rolling mills to reduce bars, and sheet steel.

.

These needed re-grinding and profiling, usually on a weekly basis, and would be carried in 'Roll Wagons' or in open wagons, when loaded as directed.

Edited December 24, 2022 by br2975

[bazjones1711]

When I became interested in wagons early to mid 1980's and beyond here are the wagons I remember being used for tinplate traffic  originating from BSC Velindre , Ebbw Vale and Trostre .

SHA ex SPA pool of 35 

VBA

VTG KIA telescopic wagons

VTG Cargowaggons of various designs plus French Cargowaggon versions 

OCA from Ebbw Vale ( pool of about 9 )

If I can think of anymore I will post 

 

[SED Freightman]

On 19/12/2022 at 20:13, Southernman46 said:

Aye, just to add  a bit to the above, the tinplate sheets were delivered to Metal Box's Rochester factory (a connection off the Maidstone West line near Strood station) in Shocvans pre-AB era. I remember my Grandfather who was the Works' Managers driver used to tell me (cos I liked trains) about also being responsible for shunting the vans about the works complex using a small tractor. I definitely know Shocvans were used because he'd asked the BR Guard about the reason for the white strips on most of the "tin" vans but not on the others used to take away finished goods.

Reading this reminds me that in the early 1980's the Divisional Terminals Inspector (Basil Wilson) used to visit Metal Box at Cuxton every couple of months to inspect tinplate coils that had allegedly been "damaged in transit". I had to forward his reports to the BR Claims Office which I think may have been in Store Street, Manchester.

[Southernman46]

23 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Reading this reminds me that in the early 1980's the Divisional Terminals Inspector (Basil Wilson) used to visit Metal Box at Cuxton every couple of months to inspect tinplate coils that had allegedly been "damaged in transit". I had to forward his reports to the BR Claims Office which I think may have been in Store Street, Manchester.

👍 That follows, my Grandfather's chief complaint that the tinplate often arrived with the banding etc split.

[Fat Controller]

On 24/12/2022 at 16:16, jim.snowdon said:

An interesting thread, about the movement of tinplate, but it is missing one element. As I understand the business, tinplate went to factories that made cans, eg Metal Box, and it was the finished cans (and lids) that then went from there to the canning factories, where the contents were added. This leads to two quite different needs as far as transport is concerned. Raw tinplate, either as sheets or coil, is heavy stuff (as you might expect) and inclined to be destructive if it gets loose in a wagon. (As an aside, that is what lead the GWR to build a small batch of open wagons specially for tinplate traffic - although the same size as a standard wagon, they were rated at 20T and had the insides of the ends protected with a thick steel plate. Presumably there had been too many instances of badly secured packages of tinplate bursting the ends of wagons.), and why it was confined to this area

Finished cans, on the other hand, are all about bulk and not much weight, but they are still delicate - canning machinery has difficulty working with cans that are out of round or crinkled, so putting pallet loads of them in Shocvans would be sensible.

 

BR actually built vans to carry empty tins from the Metal Box works at Carlisle to the various creameries in the Lakes and Solway Firth area. They looked as though they might be derived from a 1/208 Standard van, except that they had no doors, except for a pair of end doors at one end. I've no idea as to why such a design was used.

[cctransuk]

8 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

BR actually built vans to carry empty tins from the Metal Box works at Carlisle to the various creameries in the Lakes and Solway Firth area. They looked as though they might be derived from a 1/208 Standard van, except that they had no doors, except for a pair of end doors at one end. I've no idea as to why such a design was used.

 

I suspect that the factory in question had end-loading facilities, accessed via wagon turntables.

 

CJI.

[Fat Controller]

On 24/12/2022 at 17:47, br2975 said:

.

The small batch of GW built opens were intended for the carriage of 'tinplate bar' which was long rectangular section strips of metal between 14' and 16' in length.

.

'Tinplate bar' was produced at several steel works around South Wales and transported to the various smaller tinplate works where it was reheated, and then rolled, and folded several times before trimming in order to form the sheets that were then tinplated, packed and sold.

.

There are two pages of instructions on the loading of tinplate bar in open wagons, in the 1936 GWR Rule Book pages 212/213.

.

.

It may also be worth pointing out to those not familiar with the industry that 'Roll Wagons' ( built by both the GWR, and later by BR ) contrary to popular belief, were not intended for the carriage of steel coils, but for the mill rolls that were used in the rolling mills to reduce bars, and sheet steel.

.

These needed re-grinding and profiling, usually on a weekly basis, and would be carried in 'Roll Wagons' or in open wagons, when loaded as directed.

My father's first trade was as a 'Roll Fitter and Turner', originally at Cwmfelin steel works, on the western side of Swansea, later going to Briton Ferry Steel during WW2. At this point, rolling mills had their own facilities for turning and dressing rolls on site; later specialist facilities would built to serve a group of mills, such as the Machyniys foundry and engineering in ''Tinopolis'

[Fat Controller]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I suspect that the factory in question had end-loading facilities, accessed via wagon turntables.

 

CJI.

That was my initial suspicion, but it seems odd to come up with such an inflexible vehicle.

[C126]

May I just thank you all for your contributions to this thread.  I can not express how much I appreciate the recording and sharing of your detailed knowledge, and read with some bemusement the postings here, and on other parts of RMWeb, made over Christmas.  It appears I will need cans ready manufactured delivered to my food processor, but this can still be a Shocvan, or, now we know, a VCA.  I do hope this will prove to be of interest to others as well.

 

Thank you again so much, and I hope you are enjoying the Christmas holiday as you wish.  Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.  Neil.

[Enterprisingwestern]

26 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

BR actually built vans to carry empty tins from the Metal Box works at Carlisle to the various creameries in the Lakes and Solway Firth area. They looked as though they might be derived from a 1/208 Standard van, except that they had no doors, except for a pair of end doors at one end. I've no idea as to why such a design was used.

 

Now here's a question, the shocvans lettered return to Carlisle I'd always assumed were for Carrs biscuits, but were the tin plate vans similarly lettered?, if so, how were they kept apart for their respective traffic?, or am I barking up the wrong tree (as usual!).

 

Mike.

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

That was my initial suspicion, but it seems odd to come up with such an inflexible vehicle.

 

True - but the design probably came from the same office that thought that it would be a good idea to have two super-heavy doors, at diagonally opposite corners of the chassis - and then wondered why the wagons fell off the rails at anything much above walking-pace!! ☹️

 

CJI.

[Fat Controller]

9 minutes ago, C126 said:

May I just thank you all for your contributions to this thread.  I can not express how much I appreciate the recording and sharing of your detailed knowledge, and read with some bemusement the postings here, and on other parts of RMWeb, made over Christmas.  It appears I will need cans ready manufactured delivered to my food processor, but this can still be a Shocvan, or, now we know, a VCA.  I do hope this will prove to be of interest to others as well.

 

Thank you again so much, and I hope you are enjoying the Christmas holiday as you wish.  Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.  Neil.

It's been a very interesting thread, about something I thought I was familiar with; I've learnt a lot, and it's brought back lots of memories. Hope the thread continues for a while longer

[Fat Controller]

10 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Now here's a question, the shocvans lettered return to Carlisle I'd always assumed were for Carrs biscuits, but were the tin plate vans similarly lettered?, if so, how were they kept apart for their respective traffic?, or am I barking up the wrong tree (as usual!).

 

Mike.

Wouldn't the vans delivering tinplate be marked 'return empty to Llandeilo Jct, Velindre or wherever? The vans used for the biscuit traffic would have 'Return empty to Carlisle'

Incidentally, Carlisle seems to have had two Metal Box factories, at London Road and Denton Holme.

[The Stationmaster]

24 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Now here's a question, the shocvans lettered return to Carlisle I'd always assumed were for Carrs biscuits, but were the tin plate vans similarly lettered?, if so, how were they kept apart for their respective traffic?, or am I barking up the wrong tree (as usual!).

 

Mike.

I don't know why Shocvans would be needed for biscuit traffic?  Huntley & Palmers at Reading despatched biscuits (to the extent that they still used rail in the mid-1960s) in Vanfits to BR served destinations, including some shipment traffic throgh London docks.  Their export traffic to some parts of the world was despatched in steel water tanks - something they'd adopted when the found out that a manufacturer of water tanks was sending them to the same places as H&P were sending biscuits - and the tanks were loaded in Hyfits, again for shipment via London docks.

[Enterprisingwestern]

50 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Wouldn't the vans delivering tinplate be marked 'return empty to Llandeilo Jct, Velindre or wherever? The vans used for the biscuit traffic would have 'Return empty to Carlisle'

Incidentally, Carlisle seems to have had two Metal Box factories, at London Road and Denton Holme.

 

I'm not a home with the reference material at the minute, but from memory, dangerous I know, I didn't think they said empty.

 

39 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't know why Shocvans would be needed for biscuit traffic?  Huntley & Palmers at Reading despatched biscuits (to the extent that they still used rail in the mid-1960s) in Vanfits to BR served destinations, including some shipment traffic throgh London docks.  Their export traffic to some parts of the world was despatched in steel water tanks - something they'd adopted when the found out that a manufacturer of water tanks was sending them to the same places as H&P were sending biscuits - and the tanks were loaded in Hyfits, again for shipment via London docks.

 

I'm only going on pictures I've found of shocvans with Carrs labels on them, so dangerously putting 2 and 2 together!

As an aside, the Bachmann shocvans with the Carlisle lettering need the underframe swapping to LNER style.

 

Mike.

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I'm not a home with the reference material at the minute, but from memory, dangerous I know, I didn't think they said empty.

 

 

I'm only going on pictures I've found of shocvans with Carrs labels on them, so dangerously putting 2 and 2 together!

As an aside, the Bachmann shocvans with the Carlisle lettering need the underframe swapping to LNER style.

 

Mike.

Shortbread more prone to shock damage then Rich Tea possibly😀?    (Or more likely the fact that Shocvans were not easy to get hold of and were worth keeping on ce you'd got them because at least you knew you had some wagons available)

[Fat Controller]

Is it possible that Shocvans would bring tinplate north, then be back-loaded southwards with biscuits? 

[Enterprisingwestern]

7 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Is it possible that Shocvans would bring tinplate north, then be back-loaded southwards with biscuits? 

 

Yes, I did wonder that, but thought that maybe Carrs wouldn't want their biccies in vans used for carrying "dirty" metal things.

 

Mike.

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Yes, I did wonder that, but thought that maybe Carrs wouldn't want their biccies in vans used for carrying "dirty" metal things.

 

Mike.

The 'Dirty Metal Things' were actually coated with a thin layer of food-grade palm oil; the same as was used in making biscuits...