Method of carriage of tinplate (coil?) in Shocvans and after, especially to canning factories.

[C126]

Sorry to ask what is probably another daft question, but I have heard a few times Shocvans were used to carry tinplate.  An excuse to have one on my layout for delivery to a canning factory nearby has made me wonder in what form the tinplate was conveyed (I assume a small coil) and how this would be manœuvred in/out of a little Shocvan.

 

Also, after the Shocvans were replaced, what was tinplate delivered in?  I assume the new Bachmann BAA is rather an 'over-kill'.  I could not see anything relevant on Flickr, so if anyone knows of a site I would be grateful, and hope this of interest to others.  Many thanks as ever.

[Michael Hodgson]

9 minutes ago, C126 said:

 

Also, after the Shocvans were replaced, what was tinplate delivered in?  I

 

Transit vans perhaps. 🙄

 

I don't think rolls of tinplate are anywhere near as fragile as Royal Doulton plates, so I'm not clear why a shocvan would be specified.

[C126]

Thanks, @Michael Hodgson .  I admit I wondered, but know nothing about tin-plating.  Hope someone has the definitive answer here somewhere.

[Mark Saunders]

If I recall correctly the VCA was designed for tinplate.

[C126]

Thanks, @Mark Saunders .  I assume it was conveyed in small coils, and un-/loaded on a 'one-fork' fork-lift into a cradle?  Anyone know for sure?

[Phil Bullock]

@br2975 Brian Rolley will know for sure! Don’t forget scrap tin plate out too …. In 16 ton minerals perhaps, will try modelling it with foil with holes punched in…. Used to see that coming out of Metal Box at Worcester 

[Rivercider]

7 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

If I recall correctly the VCA was designed for tinplate.

Yes a lot of VCAs were loaded out of BSC Ebbw Vale, Velindre, and Trostre tinplate works, including to Metal Box locations.

 

 

cheers

 

 

[C126]

I see @br2975  is off in New York according to his profile, so will try and wait for his input.  Thanks to everyone thus far, and I should add it was @Nearholmer who suggested the idea of a canning factory on the Sussex Weald to me in the first place.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, C126 said:

Sorry to ask what is probably another daft question, but I have heard a few times Shocvans were used to carry tinplate.  An excuse to have one on my layout for delivery to a canning factory nearby has made me wonder in what form the tinplate was conveyed (I assume a small coil) and how this would be manœuvred in/out of a little Shocvan.

 

Also, after the Shocvans were replaced, what was tinplate delivered in?  I assume the new Bachmann BAA is rather an 'over-kill'.  I could not see anything relevant on Flickr, so if anyone knows of a site I would be grateful, and hope this of interest to others.  Many thanks as ever.

Tinplate, in the days before air-braked trains, was normally delivered on flat stillages, a primitive sort of pallet. The sheets of tinplate were secured to these by steel 'Signode Banding' (horrible stuff, which sometimes sprung open, leaving nasty cuts on the unwary) Shockvans were the usual vehicles, the stillages were loaded by fork-lift, then placed using a hand pallet truck. When coil superceded sheets, modified Bolster Es were used. These were themselves replaced with SAAs, and SPA plate wagons. VCAs were then brought in; they could take heavier floor loadings, essential if the lift truck was to be used inside the wagon. Currently the traffic is carried in bogie Ferryvans, loaded as coils 'eye to sky'.

Someone wondered why VSVs were used; I suspect it was to protect the wagon ends, rather than the load. 

[C126]

Thanks, @Fat Controller , for such a comprehensive answer.  I always wondered what that horrible banding was called.  Any idea how big the sheets on the stillages were?  I assume 'pallet-size' (approx 4x4'), but if you know for certain please say.  Thank you all again for your interest and contributions; much appreciated.

[Fat Controller]

The stillages were normally about 30" square, I think . My memories are of something smaller than normal pallets or 'Europallets'.

My father worked in the tinplate industry from 1926 to '48, then as a contractor whose principal client was RTB, subsequently BSC. One contract was converting several old tinplate works around Llanelly and Swansea into 'buffer stores' for finished plate. These, mainly within a couple of miles of Swansea Dock, held various 'preferred sizes' in anticipation of the arrival of ships. This meant much more economical use of the rolling and coating lines, and reduced the turnround times of ships. I would spend my weekends and holidays as a 'Chain Boy', 'helping' dad with 'setting out' the levels for the forthcoming week's concreting.

[br2975]

The other Brian (Fat Controller) has hit the nail firmly on the head.

.

Tinplate was carried in stillages known as basis boxes ( the means by which quantities of tinplate sheet were generally sold ).

 

The average size of a finished tinplate sheet was 20" x 14" although the thickness of sheets varied, as did the quality.

.

The actual size of the packed tinplate box, is something of which I'm not sure.

 

One basis box weighed around 1cwt, give or take.

.

For many years such tinplate was carried in shock absorbing vans, which were initially marked to be returned empty to certain strategic points within South Wales, for use by nominated companies

e.g.

Briton Ferry, Felin Fran, Llandilo junction, Lydney Town, Neath, Pontypool (Crane Street), Swansea Eastern Depot, Taffs Well

.

Following the reorganisation of freight working in the late 1960s all empty shock vans returning empty to South Wales were required to be directed to Briton Ferry, from where they would be distributed as required (to either the Trostre or Velindre works, the only two west Wales tinplate works then in production, the other being Ebbw Vale).

.

Companies taking in tinplate, such as Metal Box at Neath, as well as some tinplate manufacturering plants produced scrap tinplate (offcuts) which would taken by train (in 16 ton mineral wagons) to (primarily) Messrs Batchelor Robinson of Llanelli, a firm of de-tinners who would remove the tinplate from the offcuts, and selling the tin back into the industry, and selling the de-tinned offcuts as scrap metal.

.

The BR 'green pages' once showed how tinplate coils from Ebbw Vale were to be loaded, in airbraked long wheel base vans, with each coil loaded eye to sky on a wooden pallet, and with three (?) pallets to a van;

.

A number of SPA opens were also fitted with several spigots down the centre line of the wagon, on which coils were again loaded (and sheeted) eye to sky.

Inside the end of each SPA was a box with a hinged lid to stow the sheets and dunnage.

I only ever saw one photo of the inside of such a wagon, passing Gaer Junction, in a very old copy of Motive Power Monthly

.

One of, if not the, best books on the subject is:- 

"Twenty by Fourteen" :A History of the South Wales Tinplate Industry, 1700-1961: 

Jenkins, Paul:

ISBN 9781859022030:

pub by The Gomer Press

.

.

Edited December 18, 2022 by br2975

[C126]

Thanks @br2975 for your kindness in taking time to answer this query.  I will get hold of a copy of Twenty by fourteen  and see if there are pictures therein of the basis boxes.  Will keep you all posted, and many good wishes.

[Southernman46]

Aye, just to add  a bit to the above, the tinplate sheets were delivered to Metal Box's Rochester factory (a connection off the Maidstone West line near Strood station) in Shocvans pre-AB era. I remember my Grandfather who was the Works' Managers driver used to tell me (cos I liked trains) about also being responsible for shunting the vans about the works complex using a small tractor. I definitely know Shocvans were used because he'd asked the BR Guard about the reason for the white strips on most of the "tin" vans but not on the others used to take away finished goods.

[br2975]

6 hours ago, C126 said:

Thanks @br2975 for your kindness in taking time to answer this query.  I will get hold of a copy of Twenty by fourteen  and see if there are pictures therein of the basis boxes.  Will keep you all posted, and many good wishes.

.

You are more than welcome.

.

Whilst "Twenty By Fourteen" is an excellent book, packed full of information, I can't recall any photos of  'basis boxes' contained within.

.

However, by knowing the size of the plates a works produced, the thickness of the plates and the number of sheets contained within a pack (usually 112 I think) you may be able to work something out.

.

The large scale use of Shocvans in tinplate traffic was on the decline by the late 60s and early 70s, as virtually all the smaller, independent works closed, to be replaced by the three major BSC plants.

.

Metal Box Co. was one of the biggest customers, but there was also an export trade through the South Wales ports, predominantly Swansea, then Cardiff - with tinplate boxes being stored at some former works that were retained as warehouses e.g. the Upper Forest works at Morriston.

[Bernard Lamb]

On 16/12/2022 at 15:27, Fat Controller said:

Tinplate, in the days before air-braked trains, was normally delivered on flat stillages, a primitive sort of pallet. The sheets of tinplate were secured to these by steel 'Signode Banding' (horrible stuff, which sometimes sprung open, leaving nasty cuts on the unwary) Shockvans were the usual vehicles, the stillages were loaded by fork-lift, then placed using a hand pallet truck. When coil superceded sheets, modified Bolster Es were used. These were themselves replaced with SAAs, and SPA plate wagons. VCAs were then brought in; they could take heavier floor loadings, essential if the lift truck was to be used inside the wagon. Currently the traffic is carried in bogie Ferryvans, loaded as coils 'eye to sky'.

Someone wondered why VSVs were used; I suspect it was to protect the wagon ends, rather than the load. 

I remember it well.

When cutting the bands on wide coil there was a sequence that had to be followed  between the bands through the centre and the bands around the circumfrence. Get in wrong and it would attack you. The ratchet machine to tighten the bands was even more dangerous as it could take off and usually would fly straight at your head. Safety gear including long gloves was essential.. Signode was pretty well universal in the UK steel industry, however I was more familiar with the products of the US company Acme Gerrard that were part of Interlake.

Bernard

[C126]

58 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I remember it well.

When cutting the bands on wide coil there was a sequence that had to be followed  between the bands through the centre and the bands around the circumfrence. Get in wrong and it would attack you. The ratchet machine to tighten the bands was even more dangerous as it could take off and usually would fly straight at your head. Safety gear including long gloves was essential.. Signode was pretty well universal in the UK steel industry, however I was more familiar with the products of the US company Acme Gerrard that were part of Interlake.

Bernard

 

Hardly in the same league, but I am reminded of it when lugging around boxes of photo-copy paper with the plastic equivalent around them.  Horrible stuff to cut, but thankfully only harmful to one's fingers.  🙂

[Gordon A]

I used to see tin plate imported from Holland through Poole docks, where it was loaded on to bogie bolster type vehicles for onward transit.

 

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I remember it well.

When cutting the bands on wide coil there was a sequence that had to be followed  between the bands through the centre and the bands around the circumfrence. Get in wrong and it would attack you. The ratchet machine to tighten the bands was even more dangerous as it could take off and usually would fly straight at your head. Safety gear including long gloves was essential.. Signode was pretty well universal in the UK steel industry, however I was more familiar with the products of the US company Acme Gerrard that were part of Interlake.

Bernard

I found out the hard way about Signode banding...

Their factory was at Waunarllwyd, between Cockett Tunnel and Gowerton; oddly, the coil used came from Gartcosh, in central Scotland, rather than one of the South Wales plants.

[Fat Controller]

14 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

You are more than welcome.

.

Whilst "Twenty By Fourteen" is an excellent book, packed full of information, I can't recall any photos of  'basis boxes' contained within.

.

However, by knowing the size of the plates a works produced, the thickness of the plates and the number of sheets contained within a pack (usually 112 I think) you may be able to work something out.

.

The large scale use of Shocvans in tinplate traffic was on the decline by the late 60s and early 70s, as virtually all the smaller, independent works closed, to be replaced by the three major BSC plants.

.

Metal Box Co. was one of the biggest customers, but there was also an export trade through the South Wales ports, predominantly Swansea, then Cardiff - with tinplate boxes being stored at some former works that were retained as warehouses e.g. the Upper Forest works at Morriston.

The works dad's firm rebuilt were Burry (Llanelli), Duffryn (just east of the centre of Morriston, where the A48 crossed the Midland line) and King's Dock and Elba, next to Burrows Yard. All but Duffryn loaded from ground level; at Duffryn there was a platform, but some bright spark forgot to make allowances for the difference in floor levels between loaded and empty  vans. Not a problem for sliding-door vans, but cupboard-door ones had to be opened and closed away from the platform, prior to being shunted into place.

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

I found out the hard way about Signode banding...

Their factory was at Waunarllwyd, between Cockett Tunnel and Gowerton; oddly, the coil used came from Gartcosh, in central Scotland, rather than one of the South Wales plants.

I would not say "oddly".

Colvilles at Gartcosh was a very good rolling mill and could produce strip to a very tight gauge tolerance. Not able to be equalled by the plants in South Wales until the new mill was installed at Llanwern in the 1990s. In spite of people in the head office of BSC attempting to force customers to take what they were given, several companies were able to get their orders processed by the mill of their choice. The secret political dealings in the UK steel industry ran deep.

Bernard

[C126]

16 hours ago, br2975 said:

Whilst "Twenty By Fourteen" is an excellent book, packed full of information, I can't recall any photos of  'basis boxes' contained within.

 

You are quite correct.  Got my grubby hands on our copy, and the nearest is a post-card size pic. on p.127, "Tinplate boxed and ready for shipment at Old Castle Works, Llanelli.  (Note brand name: Castell.)".  This is a view of five stacks of what look like modern pizza delivery boxes 26 high, and a sixth stack on the left only ten high, on the warehouse floor.  I.e., not ready to be moved sitting on a fork-lift pallet/ 'basis box', or anything else.  Along the edge of each box appears to read "CASTELL  ***  28x20G", but I could be wrong with the numerals.  (28 sheets of 20 gauge?)

[jonhall]

You could also look at 'Transport Age' magazine- issue 11 (https://www.gersociety.org.uk/images/b__Transport_Age_Contents_List.pdf) it describes the tin manufacture, and the canning.

 

Transport Age is available on DVD form the Great Eastern Society and is a great investment if you want to understand how British Railways and the other nationalised transport companies worked in the 1950's and 60's https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/files-emporium-home/c-23-cd-our-dvds-and-cds/transport-age-and-british-transport-review-dvd

 

Jon

[The Johnster]

Thank you for all this, gents, most illuminating.  Shocvan traffic to Ogmore Processed Foods is hereby justified!

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/12/2022 at 16:28, C126 said:

Thanks, @Fat Controller , for such a comprehensive answer.  I always wondered what that horrible banding was called.  Any idea how big the sheets on the stillages were?  I assume 'pallet-size' (approx 4x4'), but if you know for certain please say.  Thank you all again for your interest and contributions; much appreciated.

I would agree with Briuan about the approximate size but some of the tinplate was rectangular, not square.  I don't know f it was the practice at all works but all the sheet tinplate I saw at Ebbw Vale was packaged inside what amounted to a 'parcel' of tinplate which was painted dark blue.  The stillage was built under this but in some cases consisted of no more than a couple of parallel substantial timbers which allowed a pallet truck to life to the stillage and take into into a van.  The stillage was one reason why Shocvans were used because the stillages could collapse if they had a hard shock during transit although this was nota very common occurrence but in any case it was necessary to prevent movement of the stillages and them damaging each other.

 

Some customers took tinplate on the roll and in those cases it was loaded eye-to-sky (i.e.upright) on a similarly built up stillage; the rolls were quite small compared with the equivalent for hot rolled steel coil and weighed much, much, less.  Metalbox normally seem to have taken sheet tinplate but I think one of their factories (Westhoughton??) took material on the roll.   All the export tinplate that I ever saw when working in South Wales was flat cut sheets packaged as I described above.