WCML landslip Carstairs

[Dagworth]

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/mainline-from-glasgow-to-carlisle-closed-until-january-6-for-vital-repairs

 

Quote

An embankment beneath the railway was significantly damaged during extreme weather on Friday, December 30, and it will require extensive work to stabilise and repair the foundations of the tracks to allow the railway to safely reopen

 

Andi

[woodenhead]

So not even an attempt to run some sort of shuttle service via Dumfries or even to Newcastle for LNER services.

 

Not even a bus replacement service.

 

Is this the future of rail - sorry no service, find your own way.

[Wheatley]

Who's going to run a shuttle service ? RMT are on strike 3rd 4th and 6th, ASLEF are on strike on the 5th. No signallboxes open on the Nith Valley and Tyne Valley, or no drivers. 

[jjb1970]

Roger Ford retweeted something the other day that the government, train companies and unions should be mindful of the longer term effects of alienating so many people. There has always been an assumption that these periods of disruption don't really matter because people either have no alternative, or the alternative (such as trying to drive into London) are much worse. That may be quite a problematic assumption, especially in terms of political goodwill going into a period of budget tightening.

[Rivercider]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Roger Ford retweeted something the other day that the government, train companies and unions should be mindful of the longer term effects of alienating so many people. There has always been an assumption that these periods of disruption don't really matter because people either have no alternative, or the alternative (such as trying to drive into London) are much worse. That may be quite a problematic assumption, especially in terms of political goodwill going into a period of budget tightening.

I have also been worried that there will be no winners in these long running disputes.

Re-openings like Portishead and Tavistock, as well as improvements to routes in the north must surely be jeopardised the longer this goes on,

 

cheers

[Mark Saunders]

The privatised chickens are coming home to roost, we want the private sector to run things but want to call all the shots.

 

You can’t have it both ways!

 

 

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Roger Ford retweeted something the other day that the government, train companies and unions should be mindful of the longer term effects of alienating so many people. There has always been an assumption that these periods of disruption don't really matter because people either have no alternative, or the alternative (such as trying to drive into London) are much worse. That may be quite a problematic assumption, especially in terms of political goodwill going into a period of budget tightening.

Indeed, this is exactly what happened nearly 70 years ago.

 

The railwaymen went on strike over a pay claim which amounted to about one packet of cigarettes a week, but which BR refused (I appreciate it's rather more they're asking for today).  A couple of days strike action would have been "worked around", but after over two weeks, many many freight customers and had enough and turned to road hauliers (which was growing industry, there haveing been so many surplus trucks and trained drivers after WW2).  It is no coincidence that the Beeching Report was published less than a decade later; the industry had committed suicide but it could be said the Unions greatest achievement had been the better redundancy terms they'd negotiated for their members.

 

This time it may be different because perhaps half the working population has the option of working from home for part of the week.  Meanwhile, the road haulage industry is chronically short of drivers as well, so all that will happen is we become a country accustomed to slower deliveries, more expensive products and services.

 

Back OT, it is a sign of the times when another of our major routes is severed by extreme weather the infrastructure was probably never designed to cope with.  

[lmsforever]

Strikes by important workers are being coordinated so as to cause as much disruption as possible ,give into RMT and they will be onto the next strike they have been a trouble making union for years.Agree a result must be reached soon or big losses on rail will drive peole from using it matbe this is what the DFT want?

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Indeed, this is exactly what happened nearly 70 years ago.

 

The railwaymen went on strike over a pay claim which amounted to about one packet of cigarettes a week, but which BR refused (I appreciate it's rather more they're asking for today).  A couple of days strike action would have been "worked around", but after over two weeks, many many freight customers and had enough and turned to road hauliers (which was growing industry, there haveing been so many surplus trucks and trained drivers after WW2).  It is no coincidence that the Beeching Report was published less than a decade later; the industry had committed suicide but it could be said the Unions greatest achievement had been the better redundancy terms they'd negotiated for their members.

 

This time it may be different because perhaps half the working population has the option of working from home for part of the week.  Meanwhile, the road haulage industry is chronically short of drivers as well, so all that will happen is we become a country accustomed to slower deliveries, more expensive products and services.

 

Back OT, it is a sign of the times when another of our major routes is severed by extreme weather the infrastructure was probably never designed to cope with.  

 

The primary issue today is not pay.

They are being asked to run more DOO, mandatory Sunday working (it is OT for many now) & they want to close many ticket offices. They also want to cut back on maintenance.

That is a significant worsening of conditions & many redundancies but the news tells us the dispute is over pay.

We've been here before over maintenance though....then Hatfield happened & a few people died because of the cost-cutting.

 

But I believe the topic got changed because of a comment inferring that the modern way of thinking is not "line is blocked, but we still need to provide a service to move these people" & has become "line is blocked - just close it & let the customers sort out the mess for themselves".

 

It is all very well pushing people into their cars but some are unable to drive because of disabilities or age. Their need public transport.

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

The primary issue today is not pay.

They are being asked to run more DOO, mandatory Sunday working (it is OT for many now) & they want to close many ticket offices. They also want to cut back on maintenance.

That is a significant worsening of conditions & many redundancies but the news tells us the dispute is over pay.

We've been here before over maintenance though....then Hatfield happened & a few people died because of the cost-cutting.

 

But I believe the topic got changed because of a comment inferring that the modern way of thinking is not "line is blocked, but we still need to provide a service to move these people" & has become "line is blocked - just close it & let the customers sort out the mess for themselves".

 

It is all very well pushing people into their cars but some are unable to drive because of disabilities or age. Their need public transport.

I wonder just how many passenger trains are still running with a Guard on lines which meet the requirements for DOO running?  We haven't had Guards on local services in our part of the world for years (where the route is suitable for DOO running) and it hasn't led to the end of the world or passengers being assaulted or indeed anything else beyond reducing the costs of operating a service and improving reliability (because you no longer need a member of traincrew in a grade which has experienced considerable recruitment difficulties as far back as I can remember).  If traina ren't running DOO where the route and stoick are suitable that's down to poor management and little else.

 

I'm far from clear exactly who is saying what about Sunday working as we get different stories from the two sides.  First of all rostered Sunday working was the normal pattern on BR - volunteer Sundays seem only to be a consequence, in some places, of the way various privatisation period managers haven't managed properly.  Sundays didn't form part of the guaranteed week on BR but that is something different from volunteer Sundays and had no bearing on the fact that they were rostered.   Sundays could quite easily form part of the basic week, as they did in the Operating Company where I ended my full time railway career, but nobody, on either side of this nonsense, seems to appreciate/realise that you have to have more staff in order to do it and you also have to pay them more in order to compensate for loss of Sunday enhanced pay.

 

Dozens of booking offices have already closed in the past year or so but what doesn't appear to have happened is any assessment of the impact that has had on revenue and any reduction in journeys made compared with whatever money (in many cases not much) saved.

 

We were also hearing the utter nomsense about having to send out full gangs where a couple of people could do the job.  This also appears to be a thing which has emerged during the privatisation era because back in BR days if we wanted a plumber or carpenter etc we (eventually) got one - sometimes with a mate); if we wanted an electrician we got one (with a mate if it involved work above a certain height), if we wanted an S&T tech we got the number - usually at least two - needed to deal with the fault but quite often for small faults in signal boxes only one attended.  So what is all this really about?

 

I am thoroughly fed with the utter nonsense being spouted by both sides in this dispute apart from total rubbish coming from various politicos (of more than one shade) who, as ever, seem determined to prove their ignorance and level of utter stupidity.

[Northmoor]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I am thoroughly fed with the utter nonsense being spouted by both sides in this dispute apart from total rubbish coming from various politicos (of more than one shade) who, as ever, seem determined to prove their ignorance and level of utter stupidity.

Nothing. but nothing, is ever made clearer by asking politicians to become involved in the discussion.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Is this the first time that a topic has never been on topic?

 

Probably best to start a new topic about what else is going on in the industry and keep this one for the land slip?

 

Simon

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

The privatised chickens are coming home to roost, we want the private sector to run things but want to call all the shots.

 

You can’t have it both ways!

 

 

 

Power without accountability (ie DfT) is never a good thing.

[SHMD]

Was it really "extreme weather" or was it a slow deuteriation of the banking/drainage coupled with "very wet weather"?

 

I really can't see how less inspections/maintenance is going to "improve" the railway!

 

 

Kev.

[woodenhead]

10 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Who's going to run a shuttle service ? RMT are on strike 3rd 4th and 6th, ASLEF are on strike on the 5th. No signallboxes open on the Nith Valley and Tyne Valley, or no drivers. 

I had quite forgotten about the strikes, what with all the news being about New Year or the state of the heath service.

[Mike_Walker]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder just how many passenger trains are still running with a Guard on lines which meet the requirements for DOO running?  We haven't had Guards on local services in our part of the world for years (where the route is suitable for DOO running) and it hasn't led to the end of the world or passengers being assaulted or indeed anything else beyond reducing the costs of operating a service and improving reliability (because you no longer need a member of traincrew in a grade which has experienced considerable recruitment difficulties as far back as I can remember).  If traina ren't running DOO where the route and stoick are suitable that's down to poor management and little else.

 

I'm far from clear exactly who is saying what about Sunday working as we get different stories from the two sides.  First of all rostered Sunday working was the normal pattern on BR - volunteer Sundays seem only to be a consequence, in some places, of the way various privatisation period managers haven't managed properly.  Sundays didn't form part of the guaranteed week on BR but that is something different from volunteer Sundays and had no bearing on the fact that they were rostered.   Sundays could quite easily form part of the basic week, as they did in the Operating Company where I ended my full time railway career, but nobody, on either side of this nonsense, seems to appreciate/realise that you have to have more staff in order to do it and you also have to pay them more in order to compensate for loss of Sunday enhanced pay.

 

Dozens of booking offices have already closed in the past year or so but what doesn't appear to have happened is any assessment of the impact that has had on revenue and any reduction in journeys made compared with whatever money (in many cases not much) saved.

 

We were also hearing the utter nomsense about having to send out full gangs where a couple of people could do the job.  This also appears to be a thing which has emerged during the privatisation era because back in BR days if we wanted a plumber or carpenter etc we (eventually) got one - sometimes with a mate); if we wanted an electrician we got one (with a mate if it involved work above a certain height), if we wanted an S&T tech we got the number - usually at least two - needed to deal with the fault but quite often for small faults in signal boxes only one attended.  So what is all this really about?

 

I am thoroughly fed with the utter nonsense being spouted by both sides in this dispute apart from total rubbish coming from various politicos (of more than one shade) who, as ever, seem determined to prove their ignorance and level of utter stupidity.

I have to agree with all that Mike says. 

 

Roughly one third of the passenger trains on the national network are currently DOO as is the entire London Underground with no discernible difference in safety compared to trains with guards still operating the doors.  Many drivers actually prefer DOO as they feel it speeds up the operation particularly on busy services where the guard might have to fight his way through to the door controls.  I accept there can be a role for a guard/conductor/train manager, call them what you will, on some services.  As Mike says, here in the Thames Valley we have branches which are equipped for DOO but the conductor still operates the doors in addition to checking/selling tickets.  This causes delays and reduces the number of tickets that can be checked or sold per trip thereby impacting on revenue.  It is local agreements that require the conductor to operate the doors but it does mean that if a conductor is unavailable the train can run in full DOO mode - but in the case of the Marlow branch only as far as Bourne End as the last 2 3/4 miles aren't DOO approved!  There is also a case for them on long distance trains.  In the Marlow Railway Society we have a retired GWR HSS train manager who has been chronicling  his memoirs in our club magazine and it is an eye-opener as to what such staff members have to deal with on a daily basis.  But again, do they really need to be in charge of opening and closing the doors at every stop?

 

Sadly, I think there is more than a whiff of the 1980s about this.  The RMT seems to have aspirations to do what the NUM tried and failed to do; bring down a Tory government.  It didn't work then and it almost certainly won't now but the result could be the same for the industry.  

 

People are already voting with their feet.  Just before Christmas, three GWR drivers, two from Exeter and one from Plymouth, were contributing to another well-known forum.  It seems that on the Thursday before Christmas, thanks to the overtime ban, there was only one train from Paddington to the West of England from late afternoon until close of play and that was only a 5-car unit.  The trio were gleefully predicting chaos as Paddington would be bursting at the seams as usual at this time of year and this train would, as a result, resemble something from Indian Railways.  But in the event they couldn’t understand why Paddington was almost deserted and the train, having carried a few standees as far as Reading, had seats available for the rest of its journey which as it happens was truncated at Plymouth due to no onward crew being available, stranding anyone who wished to continue into Cornwall.  Where was everyone?  Well, to me the answer is obvious: they were in their cars or on National Express/Megabus coaches on the M4/M5 or A303/A30.  Having had their plans so thoroughly disrupted will they be rushing back to the railways in future?  One of those GWR drivers then had the brass neck to complain about how difficult it was for his son to get home from Brighton for the festivities! Oh, deep joy!

 

Regrettably I can't see an early resolution to either the railway dispute or the others ongoing or likely to happen as we seem to have a government that is totally incapable of understanding what "negotiation" means or is prepared to allow the managements of those industries/services to deal with the issues.  I say that as a life-long Tory supporter who will never, ever vote for them again.

 

On the subject of DOO, a good friend of mine who was, at the time, a senior driver on the Long Island RR, was visiting at the time the Turbos and DOO was being introduced on the Chiltern lines.  Reggie got chatting to a driver and was very interested in the concept of DOO - the LIRR at that time would typically have two or three crewmen on the train in addition to the driver.  "What" he asked "would you do if someone started shooting back there?"  (The LIRR had recently had such an incident).  The Chiltern driver looked at him thoughtfully and replied: "I stay in hear mate and that door remains locked!"

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Is this the first time that a topic has never been on topic? ...

Erm ....... I think the first post was on topic ! 🙂

 

5 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 ... Probably best to start a new topic about what else is going on in the industry and keep this one for the land slip?

Ah - but the 'what else is going on in the industry' thread would be deemed too political and would soon get taken down. 🤫

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Erm ....... I think the first post was on topic ! 🙂

 

Ah - but the 'what else is going on in the industry' thread would be deemed too political and would soon get taken down. 🤫

Don't worry.

Before too long there will be nothing left of the industry. Well, not in the way it directly affects ordinary people. At present going into Central London is an impossibility. Trains out of action, Green Line service pulled a couple of years ago and driving any further than Brent Cross presents another set of problems.

We might well be way of topic but I would have thought that the current general situation is a worthy subject for discussing. 

Bernard

 

[JDW]

10 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

People are already voting with their feet.  Just before Christmas, three GWR drivers, two from Exeter and one from Plymouth, were contributing to another well-known forum.  It seems that on the Thursday before Christmas, thanks to the overtime ban, there was only one train from Paddington to the West of England from late afternoon until close of play and that was only a 5-car unit.  The trio were gleefully predicting chaos as Paddington would be bursting at the seams as usual at this time of year and this train would, as a result, resemble something from Indian Railways.  But in the event they couldn’t understand why Paddington was almost deserted and the train, having carried a few standees as far as Reading, had seats available for the rest of its journey which as it happens was truncated at Plymouth due to no onward crew being available, stranding anyone who wished to continue into Cornwall.  Where was everyone?  Well, to me the answer is obvious: they were in their cars or on National Express/Megabus coaches on the M4/M5 or A303/A30.  Having had their plans so thoroughly disrupted will they be rushing back to the railways in future?  One of those GWR drivers then had the brass neck to complain about how difficult it was for his son to get home from Brighton for the festivities! Oh, deep joy!

 

 

With apologies for continuing off topic, as much as I agree that people should have the right to seek improved pay and conditions, I can't see this ending well in the bigger picture. It's gone on long enough that the railway risks becoming an irrelevance. At a time when we need to be getting people back on board (and with apologies for hugely over-simplifying), there needs to be a concerted effort to run a railway at a time when passenger growth is desperately needed, rather than get bogged down in squabbles about DOO or point-scoring over pay. Whose fault it is - Government, unions, staff, management - won't matter when there's no-one left using the trains because they're too unreliable, and there's only so long the public will stay 'on side' for. Likewise the 'make your own way' or 'don't travel' messaging around disruption of any kind - why would anyone bother using the train if they didn't have to? I wouldn't. 

[Pete the Elaner]

19 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

 

Roughly one third of the passenger trains on the national network are currently DOO as is the entire London Underground with no discernible difference in safety compared to trains with guards still operating the doors.  Many drivers actually prefer DOO as they feel it speeds up the operation particularly on busy services where the guard might have to fight his way through to the door controls.  I accept there can be a role for a guard/conductor/train manager, call them what you will, on some services.  As Mike says, here in the Thames Valley we have branches which are equipped for DOO but the conductor still operates the doors in addition to checking/selling tickets.  This causes delays and reduces the number of tickets that can be checked or sold per trip thereby impacting on revenue.  It is local agreements that require the conductor to operate the doors but it does mean that if a conductor is unavailable the train can run in full DOO mode - but in the case of the Marlow branch only as far as Bourne End as the last 2 3/4 miles aren't DOO approved!  There is also a case for them on long distance trains.  In the Marlow Railway Society we have a retired GWR HSS train manager who has been chronicling  his memoirs in our club magazine and it is an eye-opener as to what such staff members have to deal with on a daily basis.  But again, do they really need to be in charge of opening and closing the doors at every stop?

 

Sadly, I think there is more than a whiff of the 1980s about this.  The RMT seems to have aspirations to do what the NUM tried and failed to do; bring down a Tory government.  It didn't work then and it almost certainly won't now but the result could be the same for the industry.  

 

 

 

There is another aspect to DOO & station staff which has been largely overlooked: lost revenue.

While travelling to London the other day, I saw the guard approaching so got my ticket out. I was only about 1/3 along the coach but he still took abut 5 minutes to get to me because he was issuing tickets. This seems to be normal. The train I was on usually arrives at a non-barriered platform in Euston. I know that so I guess others will also be aware of it.

How many passengers skip buying their ticket before travel, in the hope they don't get checked, but have an excuse prepared for when they do?

A set of barriers needs an attendant in case they fail in some way, otherwise they get left open. Smaller stations do not even have any at all.

 

It would be interesting to see figures for how many tickets are actually issued on the train rather than by a ticket machine. It would not take many per day to cover a guard's daily wage.

[Colin_McLeod]

So what is the latest news about the landslip?  How bad is it?

[SHMD]

I just typed in Carlisle to Carstairs, travelling today at 10am, into "National Rail Enquiries" - this was the response...

 

 

It does direct the passenger to the 'routes map page' so that you can verify you are stuffed!

 

 

Kev.

[rab]

21 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

Is this the first time that a topic has never been on topic?

 

Probably best to start a new topic about what else is going on in the industry and keep this one for the land slip?

 

Simon

Probably easier to rename his one and start a new one about the landslip

[griffgriff]

If this carries on it won’t be DOO but COO (customer only operation) where one gets in their car and drives. 
 

You’d think there would be a drive* to improve this eco (both ecological / economic) method of transport but no! 

 

* Sorry

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

So what is the latest news about the landslip?  How bad is it?

Pretty bad, it's affecting the whole rail network, even cleaners cannot get to work.

 

NR seem to be covering this up by claiming there is a strike.