Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Bucoops]

33 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Whereas when I was running several corporate IT infrastructures we preferred Apple because it is much more secure that Android and much simpler to manage remotely. We allowed some Android devices to connect to the systems, but definitely not all.

 

A huge problem was the ability to side-load apps on Android, and some incredibly dangerous and insecure stuff was, and remains, out there - probably why Google is telling people not to side load app, and puts out advisories on which apps should be removed.

 

We have the opposite problem. Managers insist on having apple stuff to look important, even though they only sort of work with exchange. We have to renew all sorts of tokens and whatnot for apple's enterprise management at frequent intervals, and adding approved apps isn't straightforward either. Whereas all the android devices are happy as you like on the MDM with the managed play store allowing easy access to approved app and no access to any others. Users can't root them, can't wipe them can't do anything - much to some people's annoyance. No need to renew anything, it just works.

[ChicagoNick]

I am planning on getting a Hornby  next18 sound decoder for my rails terrier.. a wonderful olive branch moment.. No terrier sound profile yet I think.. I would like Hornby to bring out the  Portishead terrier with all the sound bells and whistles.. would be a great statement of how far they have come with this model..

[Bob83a]

AJ’s asked in  the DCC section about the blank area of the decoder and whether it could be cut off.

 

The Mod locked the topic and pointed everyone back here 

 

So to answer the question is NO you cannot remove the extra bit of the decoder as it contains the Bluetooth Aerial. If you look at pictures of the decoders in some you can see the wavy line. Cutting it off would disable the Bluetooth.

 

 

[ColinB]

41 minutes ago, ChicagoNick said:

I am planning on getting a Hornby  next18 sound decoder for my rails terrier.. a wonderful olive branch moment.. No terrier sound profile yet I think.. I would like Hornby to bring out the  Portishead terrier with all the sound bells and whistles.. would be a great statement of how far they have come with this model..

The thing I would be very worried about is size. I have just added sound to my Bachmann Class143, I discounted the Hornby new offering because there wasn't a sound profile for it. Really good move, when I did a bit more digging looking at the specification of the Hornby it is substantially bigger than in my case the LokSound board, it wouldn't have fitted. I am quite happy with DCC especially since I bought a decent controller that works on wi fi.

[RAF96]

1 hour ago, ChicagoNick said:

I am planning on getting a Hornby  next18 sound decoder for my rails terrier.. a wonderful olive branch moment.. No terrier sound profile yet I think.. I would like Hornby to bring out the  Portishead terrier with all the sound bells and whistles.. would be a great statement of how far they have come with this model..

No Terrier sound profile yet from Hornby.

[frobisher]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

It's because there are umpteen variations of each edition of the Android OS.

Many of the phone manufacturers install modified or customised versions of the standard Android OS, where they integrate Android with their own GUI wrapper and its associated bloatware**.

App developers have to ensure their creations work on each variant and that takes time and money.

Hence, a number of developers either won't do an Android App, or give up supporting their Android version at an earlier point, or altogether.

I understand that this has become less of a problem than it was just a few years ago, but the issues are still there.

 

**Google's own Pixel range of Android phones avoid this.

 

A decent framework knocks that all into a cocked hat though (Unity for instance, whilst mostly used for games will hit just about any platform you care to name including some you didn't know were a thing at all), but you have to have the mind set to know why you're doing it.  But there is this iPhone first attitude that is prevalent (mainly because of the awkwardness of any development on the Apple platform) and the tendency to try and develop with Apple's tools and then finding their cross platform capabilities are near zero.

 

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Apple iOS only runs on Apple devices, with only one flavour of each version of iOS, across all their iPhones and iPads.

The walled garden isn't a bad thing, as it ensures consistency and proper compliance with the ecosystem..

 

Amazon is even better in that regard, which is why their appstore is the one being used for the Windows 11 Android emulator...

[Kris]

Well that's the app downloaded...

[Marcoblanco]

Waiting with burning anticipation for the YouTube demos !!

[Bob83a]

I think I saw somewhere that there were going to be separate documentation for the sound profiles. The reference manual has generic information for the decoder and sound types but nothing specific.

 

Have the documents been produced, and where can I find them, assuming there are such things.

 

Particularly I am interested in both versions of the HST sounds, and also the Class 800 (sound profile not available yet but is on the original list). Decoders in these models need to operate in pairs. Do they need to be in a consist.

Can you set one decoder to operate slightly differently, e.g. start delay, horn only from front car in the forward direction etc. The TTS decoders only operated as two identical units.

 

The reference manual does not help.

 

Added the following

As far as I can tell, the Bluetooth control can only talk to one decoder at a time. Therefore consisting, top and tail, double heading are all currently not possible using the app. other than treating the two loco’s as separate items. But there will be issues if both loco’s have motors.
 

I have not  tried yet but somethings may be possible e.g. consist or multiple decoders with the same address should be possible using a DCC controller. I.e. just using the DCC and not Bluetooth.

 

It looks like the best you can current do with the app is to turn the lights on etc on the rear dummy loco, and then switch to controlling just the front one. You would then need to switch between loco’s to alter settings, e.g switch lights.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Bob83a
Added last paragraphs

[Marcoblanco]

Presume you would set them up on their own differently and then operate as a consist or you just treat them as 2 address's. I take it there's only one motor to worry about anyway in the units..(?)

[Als Yard]

3 hours ago, Bob83a said:

As far as I can tell, the Bluetooth control can only talk to one decoder at a time. Therefore consisting, top and tail, double heading are all currently not possible using the app. other than treating the two loco’s as separate items. But there will be issues if both loco’s have motors.

 

They have already talked about eventually adding a future to the app that will allow you to do this, don't know when they are going to implement this though, as they stated it would be by release of the app but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Ron Ron Ron]

This is how consisting works with the SoundTraxx Blunami app….

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[leonk]

14 hours ago, Bob83a said:

As far as I can tell, the Bluetooth control can only talk to one decoder at a time. Therefore consisting, top and tail, double heading are all currently not possible using the app. other than treating the two loco’s as separate items. But there will be issues if both loco’s have motors.

 

There doesn't seem to be any technical holdup on multiple unit control. 

They're not using old fashioned single connection bluetooth like your phone uses to connect to a car.   They use Bluetooth mesh, which means all the locos using it are connected at the same time and commands are shared around to all of them.

 

Looks like one of those things they just ran out of time to add to the UI. 

[ColinB]

Thanks for the info I didn't realise that. So in reality the Bluetooth is only useful for controlling one loco, loading sound files and setting CVs. So DCC is not dead.

[Ron Ron Ron]

40 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Thanks for the info I didn't realise that. So in reality the Bluetooth is only useful for controlling one loco, loading sound files and setting CVs. So DCC is not dead.

 

 

It can run Multiple locos and consists.

Although it appears that Hornby haven't worked out their consisting yet  (watch the Blunami video above).

 

In theory, accessory modules, such as point decoders (or suitably equipped point motors), signal decoders, auto-reversers and track detection, could all use a Bluetooth platform like this, if someone manufacturers them and the control apps are developed

 

DCC is not dead, this is still DCC..... hence the name...HM DCC

I guess you mean, using your regular DCC until these issues are fixed?

 

 

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[Porfuera]

16 hours ago, Bob83a said:

Can you set one decoder to operate slightly differently, e.g. start delay, horn only from front car in the forward direction etc. The TTS decoders only operated as two identical units.

 

I believe the start delay question was answered slightly further back up the thread by @RAF96 and the answer was that yes, this can be done. I don't remember reading anything so far about the horn.

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Porfuera

[E100]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

Thanks for the info I didn't realise that. So in reality the Bluetooth is only useful for controlling one loco, loading sound files and setting CVs. So DCC is not dead.

 

I think these consisting  features will be added sooner rather than later. Probably after they get an Android app out which will be the priority I'm sure.

 

I agree that DCC is not dead and will still have a place. Afterall, this is still runs on DCC protocol with CV's, it's just a method of communication that can be different (still can be controlled by a DCC handset. Furthermore, ethernet still has a place in most modern home and corporate networks 20 odd years after wifi became mainstream. That's not to downplay the potential of this as I'm still excited by it.

[RAF96]

The sound profile guides are in the same place as all the other manuals and guides on the Hornby site.

consisting - have a read of the decoder manual for CV19 info. As each decoder has its own unique and unchangeable ID (HM7000-xxxx) consisting is handled differently. The decoder DCC address is only used by a DCC controller  thus  giving two decoders the same address only works under that control system.

[RedgateModels]

So, I had a play last night. It all worked as expected. Connected the decoder to the app etc and downloaded the Britannia scheme, which took about 10 minutes or so.

 

Sounds seem generally good, driveability not so easy as a well set up Zimo for example. I had to engage the auto sounds option on the 3rd screen to get it to switch to coasting when lowering the speed. This only ran the coasting sounds for a few seconds before it started off chuffing again. It's still, well, a bit TTS for my liking, but as has been pointed out, we ae talking about a decoder that is cheaper than a Zimo or Loksound.

 

I think with a little more work these sounds schemes could rival those of their higher end counterparts. The ingredients are there (inertia, brake key, coasting sounds etc)

 

Range was good with an iPad and the plastic tender location of the decoder. Worked fine across our 25ft lounge.

 

With regards to DCC addressing as mentioned by RAF96 above, I can confirm that the app sets the address well - importantly for Powercab users when setting a two-digit address it actually sets a true two-digit not a four-digit with leading zeros. That's one common gotcha avoided with the HM App 🙂

 

I had a problem with the Brit in that it looks like the centre crank pin on one of the drivers is not fitted properly, so the return crank is at the wrong angle and the pin does not protrude far enough through the wheel. The resulting tight spot really affected running on DCC and Bluetooth. 

 

Once surgery has been completed on the loco then I'll see if this improves things. 

 

Oh and the track was powered by the Powercab. Not yet tried with other sources of supply, although I was tempted to plug the H&M Clipper in and whack up the voltage .......

Edited March 22, 2023 by RedgateModels

[Legend]

30 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

Oh and the track was powered by the Powercab. Not yet tried with other sources of supply, although I was tempted to plug the H&M Clipper in and whack up the voltage .......

 

Thats what I'm waiting for . Maybe not a Clipper (although I do have one) but a Gaugemaster D cranked to full to see what happens 

[RedgateModels]

15 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Thats what I'm waiting for . Maybe not a Clipper (although I do have one) but a Gaugemaster D cranked to full to see what happens 

 

I do have a little Gaugemaster controller, not sure what model it is, got it in a job lot of donations years ago. It's not got much oomph, I know that. 

 

It could be a Combi ......

Edited March 22, 2023 by RedgateModels

[MikeParkin65]

50 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

So, I had a play last night. It all worked as expected. Connected the decoder to the app etc and downloaded the Britannia scheme, which took about 10 minutes or so.

 

Sounds seem generally good, driveability not so easy as a well set up Zimo for example. I had to engage the auto sounds option on the 3rd screen to get it to switch to coasting when lowering the speed. This only ran the coasting sounds for a few seconds before it started off chuffing again. It's still, well, a bit TTS for my liking, but as has been pointed out, we ae talking about a decoder that is cheaper than a Zimo or Loksound.

 

I think with a little more work these sounds schemes could rival those of their higher end counterparts. The ingredients are there (inertia, brake key, coasting sounds etc)

 

Range was good with an iPad and the plastic tender location of the decoder. Worked fine across our 25ft lounge.

 

With regards to DCC addressing as mentioned by RAF96 above, I can confirm that the app sets the address well - importantly for Powercab users when setting a two-digit address it actually sets a true two-digit not a four-digit with leading zeros. That's one common gotcha avoided with the HM App 🙂

 

I had a problem with the Brit in that it looks like the centre crank pin on one of the drivers is not fitted properly, so the return crank is at the wrong angle and the pin does not protrude far enough through the wheel. The resulting tight spot really affected running on DCC and Bluetooth. 

 

Once surgery has been completed on the loco then I'll see if this improves things. 

 

Oh and the track was powered by the Powercab. Not yet tried with other sources of supply, although I was tempted to plug the H&M Clipper in and whack up the voltage .......

Thanks for a really helpful first review. Allowing for the valve gear issue with your Brit is there any attempt to get 4 beats per revolution?

[RedgateModels]

7 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Thanks for a really helpful first review. Allowing for the valve gear issue with your Brit is there any attempt to get 4 beats per revolution?

 

I didn't get that far, although slow speed rotations were ok, it started locking up etc once it got over speed step 10 or so. I could have another look tonight SWMBO permitting - Your Home Made Perfect was on last night and I was not allowed to make noises 🤣

[Bulleidboy100]

I've been running a Hornby 9F Evening Star with the HM7000 21pin decoder for a few weeks and it performs very well - with the 9F sound profile. I have a very basic set-up - Hornby Elite hard wired to the bus cable, as my layout is an end-to-end, a lot of my running has taken place on the rolling road - this allows continuous running for an hour or so. I have still to fine tune the loco, but it runs well, the sounds are good, better than TTS, and the various functions are easy to operate. I can switch to DCC and use the Elite by just pushing (well sliding) a button. I have the sound level at about 25 -  the slow running is impressive. One aspect I really like, especially with my layout, is the coupling movement, you can set your loco to move back and forth, by less than an inch, which when using undertrack magnets and Kadees is brilliant.

I'm not one for playing with CV's , so there is still a steep learning curve with that. Like probably very many, I will not use the App to run trains all the time - I am happy with my Elite (v1.45), but to be able to download sounds and change them, should the need arise is such an easy thing to do. I would add that I use an Apple iphone IOS 16.3.1

I am awaiting the arrival of an 8pin TXS decoder to fit to a Hornby Merchant Navy Class, and download the appropriate

sound profile.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Bulleidboy100

[Kris]

Currently having a very quick play and have found that not all of the promised sound profiles are available. I also found that the chip needed a couple of updates before being able to do anything.