Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Bob83a]

12 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

So many questions left unanswered just for DCC use...

• Sound Quality, never very good with Hornby - Only 3 sound channels vs 10 for LokSound et al

 

How many channels do you really need.

 

If you try to trigger a number of sound by the time you get to the last one then the first has finished.

 

A number of the sounds are not compatible on a number of sound projects.

      E.g flange squeal and coupling

            Bacon frying and shovelling coal

            Short and long whistles or horns, some projects have more than 2 varieties.

 

I am not says 3 is the best number but so far I have not come across any sound project that needs 10 at the same time. There may of course be sound projects that could benefit from a large number.

[WIMorrison]

6 minutes ago, Bob83a said:

How many channels do you really need.

...

 

And how many sound functions are actually used by people?

 

When I ask people the functions they actually use (after the novelty has worn off) it generally comes down to 

 

1. Short/Long Whistle

2. Sound off/on

3. Volume up/down

 

People using automation tend to use more, but not because they press the buttons, but because they are programmed to happen at places on the layout and are called by the computer.

 

 

[WIMorrison]

12 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

...

• Automation, iTrains et al

...

 

 

It is highly unlikely that iTrain will ever support communication and control direct to decoders using Bluetooth because automation needs stable and reliable comms that will work for every command, every time. When you are controlling manually using an app, if a command isn't received by the loco you would see that the it hasn't been acted upon and simply send it again. This doesn't happen with automation and iTrain will operate these decoders using DCC.

 

I suspect that other programs will have a similar view on the use of this system via bluetooth.

[Marcoblanco]

Has anyone tried to dabble with an 'IOS emulater' which someone has alerted me towards. Apparently an app that can be put on your android to allow use of Apple Apps.. I'm thinking to good to be true but some folks use it to play Apple app games on androids...I suppose I'm getting impatient in waiting for Android app... !

[Hroth]

I'm not in a hurry to dive into TXS, the TXS fitted loco I am waiting for from Hornby apparently won't be with us until Q3/4 this year 🤣 , so apart from checking that the older android  tablets that I intend to use will cope with the new app, I'll watch and take notes....

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Hroth
getting TXS the right way around...

[NIK]

12 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

It is highly unlikely that iTrain will ever support communication and control direct to decoders using Bluetooth because automation needs stable and reliable comms that will work for every command, every time. When you are controlling manually using an app, if a command isn't received by the loco you would see that the it hasn't been acted upon and simply send it again. This doesn't happen with automation and iTrain will operate these decoders using DCC.

 

I suspect that other programs will have a similar view on the use of this system via bluetooth.

Hi,

 

Whose to say HM7000 Bluetooth won't have as reliable comms as DCC. Commands can be sent a number of times, as I understand they are with DCC.

Also Bluetooth being bi directional there is the possibility of checking messages have been received and resending them (at a faster data rate than DCC).

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[JSpencer]

17 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

And how many sound functions are actually used by people?

 

When I ask people the functions they actually use (after the novelty has worn off) it generally comes down to 

 

1. Short/Long Whistle

2. Sound off/on

3. Volume up/down

 

People using automation tend to use more, but not because they press the buttons, but because they are programmed to happen at places on the layout and are called by the computer.

 

 

 

Sound on/off is a pre-requisite to switch sound on otherwise it is like a plain DCC fitted loco with a very expensive chip.

 

I use the whistles a lot. Brakes when they are not automatic, then safety valves and flange squeal. Other items (things you would actually hear standing outside the loco such as injectors etc) from time to time.

I don't bother with coupling on, or people talking (unless it is a station announcement that actually suits the layout).

"Coal on" only used IF I want the firebox glow, but generally far too loud (you would not really hear someone shoveling coal unless you were in the cab or standing near it).

 

So overall, there are several functions I would use generally, but probably only a third of those available on a sound chip. This both manually and automated.

 

I don't think I've ever used Volume up/down. But I do use fade out and Coasting, when it exists.

 

 

[Pmorgancym]

3 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

Sound on/off is a pre-requisite to switch sound on otherwise it is like a plain DCC fitted loco with a very expensive chip.

 

I use the whistles a lot. Brakes when they are not automatic, then safety valves and flange squeal. Other items (things you would actually hear standing outside the loco such as injectors etc) from time to time.

I don't bother with coupling on, or people talking (unless it is a station announcement that actually suits the layout).

"Coal on" only used IF I want the firebox glow, but generally far too loud (you would not really hear someone shoveling coal unless you were in the cab or standing near it).

 

So overall, there are several functions I would use generally, but probably only a third of those available on a sound chip. This both manually and automated.

 

I don't think I've ever used Volume up/down. But I do use fade out and Coasting, when it exists.

 

 

I'm surprised we've not entered the area where you 'drive' the loco and  the sounds are trigger automatically.  So you effective have a train sim like display that shows you water levels the fire etc, you top up water and the loco.plays the right sound you drive poorly and the loco blows off.  You don't keep pressure up and loco performance drops etc etc

[Bob83a]

But of course functions such as sound on/off, volume up/down do not actually require a sound channel.

You need 1 channel for the basic sound, which is linked to the speed,

Then there is whistle/horn but only one variety at a time.

You many need a compressor or cylinder drain cock

Then possibly shovelling.

 

But I struggle to get to more than 5 or 6 at once.

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

I'm surprised we've not entered the area where you 'drive' the loco and  the sounds are trigger automatically.  So you effective have a train sim like display that shows you water levels the fire etc, you top up water and the loco.plays the right sound you drive poorly and the loco blows off.  You don't keep pressure up and loco performance drops etc etc

 

High end chips can do "Loco drive" though they won't bug you to add water coal etc... or things can be fairly classic (you trigger most actions). Loco drive is not always easy to automate via PC though. What you are asking for would for an interface that lets you drive the loco exactly like the real thing. Virtual reality with a model loco actually running from it.

 

I can see the attraction of wanting to actually "drive" the loco on the layout. But a user would probably drive one at a time. Other users running several trains at once, would want to leave the chips to themselves.

 

We are going OT here as "loco drive" would be a far too high expectation for these cheap entry level sound chips.

[Pmorgancym]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

High end chips can do "Loco drive" though they won't bug you to add water coal etc... or things can be fairly classic (you trigger most actions). Loco drive is not always easy to automate via PC though. What you are asking for would for an interface that lets you drive the loco exactly like the real thing. Virtual reality with a model loco actually running from it.

 

I can see the attraction of wanting to actually "drive" the loco on the layout. But a user would probably drive one at a time. Other users running several trains at once, would want to leave the chips to themselves.

 

We are going OT here as "loco drive" would be a far too high expectation for these cheap entry level sound chips.

I'm more think of the future effectively linking train sim with your model railway

[JSpencer]

35 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

I'm more think of the future effectively linking train sim with your model railway

I've never used a sim. If I go that far then I'd rather drive the real thing.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

I'm surprised we've not entered the area where you 'drive' the loco and  the sounds are trigger automatically.  So you effective have a train sim like display that shows you water levels the fire etc, you top up water and the loco.plays the right sound you drive poorly and the loco blows off.  You don't keep pressure up and loco performance drops etc etc

 

 

 

 

 

.

[D3489gibson]

So, I took my two decoders to the club rooms today to have a play about. 8pin definitely doesn't fit in a Bachmann 08, regardless of removing the lead weight, so that scuppered that one. The 21pin fitted nicely into my newer release Dapol 73, speaker enclosure was the largest possible  and even had room for the stay alive powerbank too. App on a friend's phone connected to the decoder fine, and all was going well till the sound file install. Five attempts and it wouldn't load. Not sure if it was the fact that the layout it was sat on had a LOT of stock running at the time, but after two and a bit hours I gave up the ghost and took the decoder out. I'll likely give it another try at home. Anyone else had this issue at all???

 

Nathan...

[GernBlanstonShow]

2 hours ago, D3489gibson said:

So, I took my two decoders to the club rooms today to have a play about. 8pin definitely doesn't fit in a Bachmann 08, regardless of removing the lead weight, so that scuppered that one.

 

Damn, I know a lot of us were curious about this with the Class 08 Sound Profile ready to go and the Bachmann model being such a known quantity. Do you have any photos? Curious how bad of a fit it is or if there's any way to get creative with tools to make it work.

 

I've contemplated trying the decoders out in my 08 Spectre, but with this feedback and waiting for the android app I'll put that idea on pause for now.

[RAF96]

The sound profiles are on the Hornby server so you need rock solid internet connection to download them. Mobile data may not hack it.

 

[D3489gibson]

1 hour ago, GernBlanstonShow said:

 

Damn, I know a lot of us were curious about this with the Class 08 Sound Profile ready to go and the Bachmann model being such a known quantity. Do you have any photos? Curious how bad of a fit it is or if there's any way to get creative with tools to make it work.

 

I've contemplated trying the decoders out in my 08 Spectre, but with this feedback and waiting for the android app I'll put that idea on pause for now.

Annoyingly, I didn't. As soon as I realised it wasn't going to fit at all, I took it all apart and stuck the original decoder back in it, and boxed it back up. 

 

Nathan

[Izzy]

2 hours ago, GernBlanstonShow said:

I know a lot of us were curious about this with the Class 08 Sound Profile ready to go and the Bachmann model being such a known quantity.

 

Be interesting to discover if they fit in Hornby's own 08's .......

 

Bob

[lapford34102]

2 hours ago, Izzy said:

Be interesting to discover if they fit in Hornby's own 08's .......

So far with trying an 8 pin - No.

 

Stu

[miles73128]

7 hours ago, D3489gibson said:

So, I took my two decoders to the club rooms today to have a play about. 8pin definitely doesn't fit in a Bachmann 08, regardless of removing the lead weight, so that scuppered that one. The 21pin fitted nicely into my newer release Dapol 73, speaker enclosure was the largest possible  and even had room for the stay alive powerbank too. App on a friend's phone connected to the decoder fine, and all was going well till the sound file install. Five attempts and it wouldn't load. Not sure if it was the fact that the layout it was sat on had a LOT of stock running at the time, but after two and a bit hours I gave up the ghost and took the decoder out. I'll likely give it another try at home. Anyone else had this issue at all???

 

Nathan...

I’ve done 7 now. Had one that I had to install the sound file 4 times but got there in the end. What I have noticed is the power cycle is super important. And it’s easy if you look at the app, by the decoder ID it’s either red (not connected) or blue (on line) make sure the power cycle is fully complete at each stage. Since I checked (each stage) I haven’t had a problem. 

Just done a trial fit Hornby Class 71 with 8 pin TXS, power bank and speaker. Was TIGHT! No mods or removal of the interior. I’ll do pics and a guide shortly. Not for the faint hearted!  

[Izzy]

14 minutes ago, lapford34102 said:

So far with trying an 8 pin - No.

 

Stu

 

That's a real shame given that the diesel sounds are quite decent. I'm glad I got the TTS ones I have when they were available.

 

Bob

 

 

 

[D3489gibson]

46 minutes ago, miles73128 said:

I’ve done 7 now. Had one that I had to install the sound file 4 times but got there in the end. What I have noticed is the power cycle is super important. And it’s easy if you look at the app, by the decoder ID it’s either red (not connected) or blue (on line) make sure the power cycle is fully complete at each stage. Since I checked (each stage) I haven’t had a problem. 

Just done a trial fit Hornby Class 71 with 8 pin TXS, power bank and speaker. Was TIGHT! No mods or removal of the interior. I’ll do pics and a guide shortly. Not for the faint hearted!  

You've definitely had lady luck on your side then! Haha!!! I've just spent from 2100-2250 trying again at home this time, with the 73 again, to no avail, and also a Hornby Duchess (46225) and the latter responded initially to the pre loaded sound set. The minute I loaded the stander Pacific sound set to the decoder, cycle completed, bang - soundset could not be loaded. Tried this three times then attempted to reinstall the preloaded sounds, again with the same message... 

 

I must ask, what system/ PSU have you been using? I've been using my Lenz setup on my "programming plank" this evening, and it's gotten me wondering if I'd have better luck trying with the Hornby DC controller turned to full whack, and the standard PSU that cones with it... thoughts?

 

Nathan...

[Denny]

1 hour ago, lapford34102 said:

So far with trying an 8 pin - No.

 

Stu

That’s not true. It does fit - you need to be careful and precise with your cable and chip placement/management. 
 

I’ve fitted an 8-Pin chip and speaker to a Hornby 09. The really early Dick Hardy model. 
 

I also fitted the Hornby power-bank in the cab with only minor modifications. You need to remove a tiny portion from the front of the control desk. 
 

[Edit] in response to the the 8 pin chip not fitting in a Hornby 08

Edited April 5, 2023 by Denny

[miles73128]

7 hours ago, D3489gibson said:

You've definitely had lady luck on your side then! Haha!!! I've just spent from 2100-2250 trying again at home this time, with the 73 again, to no avail, and also a Hornby Duchess (46225) and the latter responded initially to the pre loaded sound set. The minute I loaded the stander Pacific sound set to the decoder, cycle completed, bang - soundset could not be loaded. Tried this three times then attempted to reinstall the preloaded sounds, again with the same message... 

 

I must ask, what system/ PSU have you been using? I've been using my Lenz setup on my "programming plank" this evening, and it's gotten me wondering if I'd have better luck trying with the Hornby DC controller turned to full whack, and the standard PSU that cones with it... thoughts?

 

Nathan...

Sorry to hear about your loading issues. I’m using a Hornby Elite to provide power. I’m using main output., not a programming track. 

[RAF96]

11 hours ago, D3489gibson said:

wondering if I'd have better luck trying with the Hornby DC controller turned to full whack, and the standard PSU that cones with it... thoughts?

Latest Hornby advice (pending further lab trials with analogue controllers) is NOT to use any DC controller to power 7000-series decoders, but to by-pass it and use direct power to the track from the PSU or deploy DCC track power. This very recent advice a result of several blown decoders after using the ‘wrong’ type of DC at full whack.