Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Johan DC]

3 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

Hornby would do well to produce a non-sound 8 pin direct decoder similar to the TCS DP2X-UK

 

https://www.tcsdcc.com/product-page/dp2x-uk

 

As far as I know TCS are the only supplier (apart from DCC Concepts) who offer such a decoder.

Don't Rails and Hattons do these as well?

[RedgateModels]

1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

Don't Rails and Hattons do these as well?

 

possibly, I only fit (and recommend) quality decoders (Zimo, Lenz, ESU and now Hornby HM7000) - my bad I should have mentioned them along with DCC Concepts as, as far as I know, the Hattons/Dapol/Rails decoders all come from the same stable as DCC Concepts.

Edited December 18, 2023 by RedgateModels
See clarification from DCC Concepts below

[DCCconcepts]

47 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

possibly, I only fit (and recommend) quality decoders (Zimo, Lenz, ESU and now Hornby HM7000) - my bad I should have mentioned them along with DCC Concepts as, as far as I know, the Hattons/Dapol/Rails decoders all come from the same stable as DCC Concepts.

 

For clarification.

 

Dapol do not get their decoders from the same source as DCCconcepts.

Rails  - yes. We currently supply them to Rails under the Rails Connect brand.

Hattons - yes in the past, but not currently.

 

Best Regards

The DCCconcepts Team.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by DCCconcepts

[5Dublo2]

6 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

That is very useful to know. I have been through imperium and other direct fit decoders and we are just missing a mm or two for them to fit.

 I did try a direct fit DCC Concepts Zen decoder in the H class but it was too tall for the space - which was when I looked at using a harnessed decoder and the space in the side tanks. I think I have coiled the harness wires around/under the decoder socket as part of fitting so almost certainly dismounted the  socket and then refitted it after placing the wires where I wanted them - you do have to leave enough play on the wires for sliding into the side tanks while refitting the body and this is one loco I don't want to have to take apart very often

[meatloaf]

And STILL the Class 73 profile is a pain in the rear end to install.

 

4th attempt......

 

And failed again..... VERY frustrating

 

Finally, on about the 8th attempt it installed correctly. 

 

I did see a chap on the Hornby forum who suggested that Hornby has daid there was a glitch with class 73 file. Was there ever an issue found?

Edited December 19, 2023 by meatloaf

[ColinB]

3 hours ago, meatloaf said:

And STILL the Class 73 profile is a pain in the rear end to install.

 

4th attempt......

 

And failed again..... VERY frustrating

 

Finally, on about the 8th attempt it installed correctly. 

 

I did see a chap on the Hornby forum who suggested that Hornby has daid there was a glitch with class 73 file. Was there ever an issue found?

I wonder if this file is bigger than the other ones, so the timing is a bit suspect. It is only downloading bytes so what the file contains shouldn't matter. I used to write the software for reprograming vehicle electronic control units, Hornby have an awful lot to learn, but it sort of works most of the time. To be honest it seems to always work for me although I seem to have to delete the app and reload it for the app to see the new decoder. It may be that I am pressing the wrong checkbox button, it is not that obvious.

[PeterStiles]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

this file is bigger than the other ones

Yep.

[ColinB]

29 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

Yep.

Sounds like a "timeout" issue, interesting though, it takes long enough to download it. You would have thought there wouldn't have been as issue..

[meatloaf]

Shouldnt be any issue tho with a 1Gb Fibre connection and the phone next to the loco. 

 

Every other profile i tried works first time and its only the 73 ive had issues with

[WIMorrison]

Just now, meatloaf said:

Shouldnt be any issue tho with a 1Gb Fibre connection and the phone next to the loco. 

There is a lot more than just the local internet connection in play - as simple examples there is the bandwidth available at the site where the file is being hosted, and then any QOS restrictions that are placed on uploading of files from their server(s). Finally add on backbone and DSLAM contention that may be in play within the ISP.

 

[Buhar]

34 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

There is a lot more than just the local internet connection in play - as simple examples there is the bandwidth available at the site where the file is being hosted, and then any QOS restrictions that are placed on uploading of files from their server(s). Finally add on backbone and DSLAM contention that may be in play within the ISP.

 

Is this post available in English?

 

Alan

[LNERGE]

Another new experience last night. The quickest way to escape in an orderly fashion from the railway room is to key a signal back to red on each road. All the trains will eventually stop. Once everything is stopped the power is turned off and the escape can be made. A Bluetooth fitted loco was first to stop at the red signal. Within a couple of minutes everything else has stopped. The layout is powered down. The Bluetooth loco is still alive however and times out on its signal stop and is off on a jolly..

 

luckily it soon ran out of oomph. 

[spamcan61]

Is the file cached on the mobile and then downloaded to the chip, or is it pretty much Hornby server to chip with the.mobile effectively just buffering? I would expect the former.

[ColinB]

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

There is a lot more than just the local internet connection in play - as simple examples there is the bandwidth available at the site where the file is being hosted, and then any QOS restrictions that are placed on uploading of files from their server(s). Finally add on backbone and DSLAM contention that may be in play within the ISP.

 

I am only guessing but generally you copy the whole of the file onto the host device where the App should chop it into the relevant bytes for programing. If it is a PIc I think if I remember correctly you can only program 255 bytes at a time. Looking at the way it works it seems it is pretty crude, so basically you download 255 bytes wait for it to program, then download the next 255 bytes. On the systems I wrote once the 255 bytes are programed the target responds with a response to say the bytes have been programed, then the host downloads the next 255 bytes and so on. I get the opinion on the Hornby system it just waits a defined amount of time before moving on. As I say I didn't write their bootloader, so I can only guess, but looking at the time it takes to program that seems the logical explanation. In automotive you want the process over as quickly as possible, as people get upset if you trash their £30 grand car, so anything longer than 10 minutes I used to get very concerned. I did a HW7000 profile load today, it took about 30 minutes. As I say it works but I have never loaded a class 73, perhaps I will give it a go to see if I get the same issues.

[Ighten]

Tried the 73 onto a 8 pin chip last night twice with no issues.. it is the slowest and I presume the  largest and it was taking around 13mins first time to 15mins second.

 

I am on normal rural UK (pathetically slow with no chance ever of fibre) ... think on a good day it may reach 30mbs. But it worked and installed with no issues via a pixel 6a phone and a galaxy S6 tab.

[SteveM666]

All this speculation is fairly pointless. I suggest the OP works through the excellent troubleshooting guide available on the Hornby Forum.

[Ighten]

On a totally separate topic has anyone had issues when they switched the Bluetooth off and put the chip back  to DCC mode that it doesn't then recognise it on the DCC controller. Do you need to re address them using the controller. Or am I missing a key stage in doing this.

 

Ps if I switch it back to Bluetooth it behaves  fine. Cv12 seems to be switching as it should 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Ighten

[5Dublo2]

21 minutes ago, Ighten said:

On a totally separate topic has anyone had issues when they switched the Bluetooth off and put the chip back  to DCC mode that it doesn't then recognise it on the DCC controller. Do you need to re address them using the controller. Or am I missing a key stage in doing this.

 

Ps if I switch it back to Bluetooth it behaves  fine. Cv12 seems to be switching as it should 

Does the loco respond on address 3 (even though you think you set a different address in the App?) as there are some known issues/glitches with the app not reliably setting the loco address - easiest solution is to leave the loco on address 3 - use the app to change the decoder mode to DCC operation and then use your DCC controller to set your desired address.

Also note: loading a new loco profile will reset the address to 3 anyway

[Ighten]

Didn't think of that. I'll try it when I get back home. I haven't changed the profile though.

[SteveM666]

As Dublo  says, there is a known glitch that prevents CV changes on the app copying over to the decoder in DCC mode - it’s been there a while and is being worked on by the developers. As such the fix is outside of the Hornby teams control.

In the meantime, if the decoder is to be used in DCC rather than Bluetooth mode, after setting the soundprofile in the app, finish the setup via a DCC controller as if it were a legacy decoder using a programming track.

[RAF96]

Although the DCC address still shows in loco settings after a profile reload it has to be over-typed to write it back to the decoder. If it is a long address the glitch is translating the wrong values into CVs 17/18. You can read these values, back convert them in a long address calculator and use that wrong address to control the loco. As stated it is being fixed.

[spamcan61]

4 hours ago, Ighten said:

 

I am on normal rural UK (pathetically slow with no chance ever of fibre) ... think on a good day it may reach 30mbs. But it worked and installed with no issues via a pixel 6a phone and a galaxy S6 tab.

Be careful what you wish for, I'm currently on 22Mbs, now they're rolling out FTTP via loads of new telegraph poles, so I should be able to get 900Mbs (symmetric) soon, but the village will look like it's 1950 with poles and overhead FO cables all over the shop.

Edited December 20, 2023 by spamcan61

[ColinB]

3 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Be careful what you wish for, I'm currently on 22Mbs, now they're rolling out FTTP via loads of new telegraph poles, so I should be able to get 900Mbs (symmetric) soon, but the village will look like it's 1950 with poles and overhead FO cables all over the shop.

I am on BT fibre and the App generally comes up with a time that is about 20 to 25 minutes after initially saying it will be 50 minutes. It generally takes about 20 minutes, so how come you can do it faster on really bad broadband. I suppose though if it is copying the file from Hornby before it programs it, then it only effects the load time which will be fast compared to the programing time, so I doubt you notice the difference, if it takes 3 seconds to load as opposed to say 500 milliseconds.

[Ighten]

I'm guessing some comes down to the processing speed of your phone - or is that what your saying

 

Just putting the 47 back on one of my 47s and it came up 26 mins before dropping to 9.

 

But now I have a further problem..I seem to have sound but no movement. Same on Bluetooth and DCC.. I think I have mucked something up as I start to move everything over to just DCC (a knob 😳 does make a whole lot of difference ) . Is there a simple way of resetting this chip without constantly re downloading profiles

Edited December 20, 2023 by Ighten

[Bob83a]

Class 67 profile has been released, no function list yet.

 

Class 60 and 2MT for OO and both the Class 43 for TT still to come before the end of the year if they stick to the schedule published 4/10.