Hornby 2023 - Steam locomotives

[APOLLO]

33 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Which is why it doesn't seem to happen in recent models.

 

 

 

Well it won't show in recent models as it takes years to manifest itself, it MAY or MAY NOT happen, a bit of a lottery really. A £250+ lottery.

 

What proof do we have that the manufacturers (Hornby, Heljan, Bachman etc) have got this sorted by upping QC at point of manufacture over in China ?

 

Again I ask what are the manufacturers doing about this, and are they guaranteeing it won't happen ?

 

The only guarantee is not to use Mazak.

 

Brit15

[Pmorgancym]

3 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

Well it won't show in recent models as it takes years to manifest itself, it MAY or MAY NOT happen, a bit of a lottery really. A £250+ lottery.

 

What proof do we have that the manufacturers (Hornby, Heljan, Bachman etc) have got this sorted by upping QC at point of manufacture over in China ?

 

Again I ask what are the manufacturers doing about this, and are they guaranteeing it won't happen ?

 

The only guarantee is not to use Mazak.

 

Brit15

Now this is the sort of consumer issue that the model press could  pick up on.  Have any major manufacturers commented on it??

[APOLLO]

1 minute ago, Pmorgancym said:

Now this is the sort of consumer issue that the model press could  pick up on.  Have any major manufacturers commented on it??

 

I would love to know also, does anyone know ?

 

Brit15

Edited January 11, 2023 by APOLLO

[TomScrut]

34 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Well it won't show in recent models as it takes years to manifest itself, it MAY or MAY NOT happen, a bit of a lottery really. A £250+ lottery.

 

Well I think the evidence suggests there was an issue, steps were taken to remove the issue and now (assuming those steps are still being taken) the problem seems to have gone away (on stuff newer than the models affected several years ago).

 

If this was an ongoing issue we would be getting continuous reports of it as newer items fall foul of it but as far as I am aware, that is not the case.

 

That doesn't mean that the manufacturers should take their eye off the ball though.

[TomScrut]

39 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Have any major manufacturers commented on it??

 

I aren't sure what they'd have to gain by talking about it to be honest. "Sorry we won't do it again", but then those of us who have acknowledged that things have moved on don't need to hear that, those who don't think so won't believe it anyway.

 

40 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

Now this is the sort of consumer issue that the model press could  pick up on.

 

In what regard?

 

The only constructive thing to do is to cover what models are affected and possibly how to go about salvaging them. The former is covered by the thread above, the latter I expect was done nearer the time when the issue was most apparent.

 

Having just looked, there was an article in a competitor of BRMs in 2021 about recovering an affected loco. They also used the word "eradicated" regarding the issue nowadays.

[tomparryharry]

I have wondered if Mazak-type alloys are subject to degradation, via electrical pathways through the material. Although the load is not great, magnesium can & will burn off in certain situations. 

 

Being a DC luddite, what sort of current are we talking about with DCC?  However,  it's been donkeys years since I worked with molten metal.

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Now this is the sort of consumer issue that the model press could  pick up on.  Have any major manufacturers commented on it??

 

For quite a while Hornby were doing replacements on mazak rot 31s. The problem manifested itself within a couple of years on many examples.

 

Ditto Bachmann and the footplate on the N moguls.

 

The limited number of models affected are fairly well known, and apart from T9 motor mounts there has been little or nothing in the way of mazak rot reported in models made in the last 14-15 years. If the problem was ongoing we'd have found out by now 

[Ravenser]

36 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

I have wondered if Mazak-type alloys are subject to degradation, via electrical pathways through the material. Although the load is not great, magnesium can & will burn off in certain situations. 

 

Being a DC luddite, what sort of current are we talking about with DCC?  However,  it's been donkeys years since I worked with molten metal.

 

 

Most DCC systems can deliver 3A up to 5A per power district, at 16V AC. One or two US systems can deliver up to 10A on a power district. And the widely used NCE PowerCab is rated for 1.8A maximum , but the US wall transformer supplied may only deliver 1.1A.

 

But currents drawn by individual locos are the same on DCC as on DC , unless sound chips are involved, so down around 0.2-0.3A for non-sound locos. Very few mazak rot victims were DCC Sound fitted

[Robin Brasher]

I have got several Hornby T9s and they have got Mazak rot so the gears no longer engage. They are now expensive paper weights and well outside the guarantee period. I am a DCC luddite but I can nearly understand Hornby's new system.

 

Turning to the new products how many coaches are there in the Caledonian 123 sets? Two coaches in 'Product Information' but three coaches in 'What's Inside'.

[Fireline]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

I have got several Hornby T9s and they have got Mazak rot so the gears no longer engage. They are now expensive paper weights and well outside the guarantee period. I am a DCC luddite but I can nearly understand Hornby's new system.

 

Turning to the new products how many coaches are there in the Caledonian 123 sets? Two coaches in 'Product Information' but three coaches in 'What's Inside'.

Contact Hornby, and tell them you need X9945. They have them, and can send them out.

[The Black Hat]

On 10/01/2023 at 08:00, adb968008 said:

Seems to be a heavy s&d focus this year, but nothing that hasn't been done before.

There ain't much S&D at all..... 

S&DJR on the other hand.... 

[Dunsignalling]

32 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

There ain't much S&D at all..... 

S&DJR on the other hand.... 

All stuff that's well past it and been done before, though. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[The Black Hat]

Anyone got specifics on the A4's that are coming: 

Are they the current tooling with a refresh and still have DCC? Just with a Dublo label, or are they a new model as the top is listed as diecast.  

The Hattons directory is listing these as that, so presume they are still on the old chassis with diecast top just with some different labelling. Pity that the DCC socket isnt a standard fit into the tender, as that would allow easier conversion to sound. 

But does anyone know exactly what they are?

Edited January 12, 2023 by The Black Hat

[Black 5 Bear]

59 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

Anyone got specifics on the A4's that are coming: 

Are they the current tooling with a refresh and still have DCC? Just with a Dublo label, or are they a new model as the top is listed as diecast.  

The Hattons directory is listing these as that, so presume they are still on the old chassis with diecast top just with some different labelling. Pity that the DCC socket isnt a standard fit into the tender, as that would allow easier conversion to sound. 

But does anyone know exactly what they are?

The HD A4 versions are completely new body mouldings. Both the main range and HD models feature the updated wheel set as fitted to the 2022 version of the A3.

The current plastic bodied A4 by all accounts is unchanged according to Hornby.

HD versions are 8 pin DCC whilst the main range version is 21 pin.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Black 5 Bear

[The Black Hat]

57 minutes ago, Black 5 Bear said:

The HD A4 versions are completely new body mouldings. Both the main range and HD models feature the updated wheel set as fitted to the 2022 version of the A3.

The current plastic bodied A4 by all accounts is unchanged according to Hornby.

HD versions are 8 pin DCC whilst the main range version is 21 pin.

 

All of that though looks to be on the old chassis with the DCC socket in the engine, so no link to the tender. Sound fitting into the tender is a lot easier, but not if the wiring for the socket isnt there. 

[VIA185]

17 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Now this is the sort of consumer issue that the model press could  pick up on.  

I did. (CJL)

[Black 5 Bear]

3 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

All of that though looks to be on the old chassis with the DCC socket in the engine, so no link to the tender. Sound fitting into the tender is a lot easier, but not if the wiring for the socket isnt there. 

All A4's since, R3522  (MY 2017) Miles Beevor and beyond have the DCC socket in the tender.

[Chuffed 1]

Perplexed at this year’s offering. Whilst a lot of people will find something worth buying, and accepting the eras are now more widespread, unfortunately there’s nothing for me modelling SR/WR early sixties.

I did consider the 14xx but it was the same tired old moulding with the completely wrong chimney and general clunkiness.

The last Hornby loco I bought was before Covid and now my hopes reside with Accurascale and Rapido, particularly the former who are open and approachable.

A shame, as the catalogue on SK’s return had some excellent locos (and rolling stock).

Guess its reheated dinners from now on (unless you’re ER).

[rogerzilla]

Does the 14xx still have the unpainted metal chimney?  That was bizarre.

[Ribird]

13 hours ago, Black 5 Bear said:

The HD A4 versions are completely new body mouldings. Both the main range and HD models feature the updated wheel set as fitted to the 2022 version of the A3.

The current plastic bodied A4 by all accounts is unchanged according to Hornby.

HD versions are 8 pin DCC whilst the main range version is 21 pin.

 

How do you know these A4’s will have the new wheels? They look exactly the same according to the samples. The bodies are the same as they always have. 

[Black 5 Bear]

5 hours ago, Ribird said:

How do you know these A4’s will have the new wheels? They look exactly the same according to the samples. The bodies are the same as they always have. 

Take a look at various video recordings on YouTube of the sample of R3973 early BR green Sir Nigel Gresley. This was displayed on the Hornby stand at Warley.

This clearly shows the same updated wheel set as fitted to last year's upgrade of the A3

The HD bodies are all "New" tooling and the plastic bodied are the same, albeit with the upgraded wheels.

The samples you refer to are photo shopped/generated!

Edited January 13, 2023 by Black 5 Bear

[Ruston]

On 11/01/2023 at 16:05, JSpencer said:

Concerning Tiger, I think I may have found a suitable prototype for her!

 

Now we all know that Lion today has raised some doubts as to the true origin of the locomotive particularly as certain dimensions do not match.

 

There is a nice youtube video here. At the 2 minutes 9secs part, there are 2 photos showing the condition that Lion was found in, in 1919.

 

 

Now the cylinders of Lion as built 11in by 20in. Today's Lion 14in by 18in and has 5feet wheels.

The original Lion was made at Todd, Kitson and Laird.

 

It is said that today's Lion was one of three locos brought Mersey Docks and Harbors, the other 2 coming from the Lancashire and Yorkshire railway. Those from the L&Y were doubtlessly originally built for the Manchester & Leeds railway.

 

When I Look at the 1919 photos, the boiler barrel is relatively feature less, this is shown in the video and raises doubts that the Lion today was ever built at Todd, Kitson & Laird. (again stated in the video).

So I looked at where the Manchester & Leeds brought their locos from. They had several sources, most could be dismissed as having nothing like the 1919 photos.

And then boom, I hit upon the Haigh Foundry and here is Ajax built for Leicester &Swannington railway;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254818071340

or check 3rd image here: https://www.meppostcards.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2834

 

And in 1841, Haigh Foundry built 4 locos with an 0-4-2 wheel base, 5ft diameter wheels 14*18in cylinders (the exact dimensions of Lion today) for the Manchester & Leeds railway. Numbers 33,34,35 and 36.

I suspect today's Lion is one of these four!

 

===========

 

Edit: since writing this, the 2 L&Y locos were 2-2-2s so counts them out but there were other 0-4-2s brought later. And the pistons, cylinders and motion are unchanged since it was built in the 1840s.

Another video...

 

Putting aside whether the prototype Lion really is Lion or not, I don't understand how you can say this Haigh Foundry loco is a prototype for Hornby's new model.

From what I can see, the new model appears to have the boiler and firebox of the engine known as Lion, in the state it was in before being rebuilt to its present fictional appearance with the brass cover etc. This is a boiler that Anthony Dawson says dates from around 1865 and was fitted whilst in industrial service. He doesn't say who supplied the boiler but the raised firebox top is almost a trade mark of Manning Wardle.

 

Do we know the fate of Tiger? If it did continue in service until the 1860s, is there any evidence that it also received a boiler of the same appearance and time period? I would say a better prototype for the Hornby model of Tiger would be "Lion" in industrial service, between 1865 and when it became a stationary engine in the 1870s. The model has the right boiler/firebox and chimney for this.

I think this is a case of making a model that's different to the previous one and either not researching it fully, or glossing over it all because it's all quite obscure.

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

I think this is a case of making a model that's different to the previous one and either not researching it fully, or glossing over it all because it's all quite obscure.

 

One can say the same about much of the rolling stock too.

[Ribird]

9 hours ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Take a look at various video recordings on YouTube of the sample of R3973 early BR green Sir Nigel Gresley. This was displayed on the Hornby stand at Warley.

This clearly shows the same updated wheel set as fitted to last year's upgrade of the A3

The HD bodies are all "New" tooling and the plastic bodied are the same, albeit with the upgraded wheels.

The samples you refer to are photo shopped/generated!

Okay, makes sense. But where does this information come from that the Dublo GG set will have the new style of wheels?

 

Me asking here, what about the painted tyres like on the Dublo Flying Scotsman range? 

[Black 5 Bear]

26 minutes ago, Ribird said:

Okay, makes sense. But where does this information come from that the Dublo GG set will have the new style of wheels?

 

Me asking here, what about the painted tyres like on the Dublo Flying Scotsman range? 

Info re the wheelset upgrade comes directly from Hornby customer services.

They confirmed that all new model releases HD and standard range A4's will be released with the new wheelset. 

Take a look at the 2022 BR early crest A3 Flying Scotsman.

I Wouldn't pay too much attention to the photo shopped/generated catalogue pictures.

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Black 5 Bear