Landslip at Hook, Waterloo to Basingstoke route closed

[woodenhead]

Saw this, big slip leaving only the London bound lines on a solid base.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-64283381

[Foulounoux]

Some of the replies to swr on twitter have been "interesting". The I'm in London why can't you get me home type 

[woodenhead]

It’s potentially a fair point.  As a franchise I would be guessing that a replacement bus service would operate to meet contractual terms.

 

But that no longer matters when the DFT is responsible.

Edited January 15, 2023 by woodenhead

[john new]

Line capacity round via Guildford & Fareham will be an issue for routeing around it. No longer an option to go over the alps and round via Alton like the last time there was a big landslip at Hook.

 

Video link - 

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/video-major-disruption-expected-after-landslip-at-hook-hampshire-damages-main-line-from-waterloo-to-basingstoke-southampton-and-the-west
 

Edited January 15, 2023 by john new
Added the video

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, john new said:

Line capacity round via Guildford & Fareham will be an issue for routeing around it. No longer an option to go over the alps and round via Alton like the last time there was a big landslip at Hook.

Hi,

 

A big issue will be container trains, the line between St. Denys and Fareham isn’t cleared for container traffic, so that’ll have to run via Salisbury and Worting Junction (assuming that that line is cleared for container traffic).

 

Simon

Edited January 15, 2023 by St. Simon

[St. Simon]

3 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

A big issue will be container trains, the line between St. Denys and Fareham isn’t cleared for container traffic, so that’ll have to run via Salisbury and Worting Junction (assuming that that line is cleared for container traffic).

 

Simon

Forget that, I hadn’t got my geography right, the slip is between Basingstoke and London, so Container Trains can get through! D’oh!

 

Simon

Edited January 15, 2023 by St. Simon

[john new]

1 minute ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

A big issue will be container trains, the line between St. Denys and Fareham isn’t cleared for container traffic, so that’ll have to run via Salisbury and Worting Junction (assuming that that line is cleared for container traffic).

 

Simon

They, presumably will still run Southampton, Basingstoke, Reading as they do now. How many, if any,  go beyond Basingstoke on the SW main?  Hook is between Basingstoke and Winchfield so no bonus in running Salisbury - Worting Junction they would still end up west of Hook.
 

What line capacity is there for SW 159s to go Yeovil, Castle Cary and then onwards up the GW to Reading and beyond? Glad I’m not a train planner next week or needing to get up to London.

[Wickham Green too]

Shame they never connected the east and west facing bays at Reading and extended the juice to Blazingsmoke !

[St. Simon]

9 minutes ago, john new said:

What line capacity is there for SW 159s to go Yeovil, Castle Cary and then onwards up the GW to Reading and beyond? Glad I’m not a train planner next week or needing to get up to London.

Hi,

 

Possibly one an hour I could imagine, but it is a long way round and you really have to be running at 100mph + to fit in.

 

In theory, you could have the 159s go from Basingstoke via Reading, Wokingham, Richmond etc to Waterloo, but I doubt you’d get more than one every couple of hours, the whole route is very busy and it would take ages, you’re probably adding at least an hour to the journey time.

 

Simon

Edited January 15, 2023 by St. Simon

[St. Simon]

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Shame they never connected the east and west facing bays at Reading and extended the juice to Blazingsmoke !

You can go from the Basingstoke lines to the Waterloo lines at Reading via the mains or reliefs, but as you say, diesel only.

 

Simon

Edited January 15, 2023 by St. Simon

[john new]

25 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

Possibly one an hour I could imagine, but it is a long way round and you really have to running at 100mph + to fit in.

 

In theory, you could have the 159s go from Basingstoke via Reading, Wokingham, Richmond etc to Waterloo, but I doubt you’d get more than one every couple of hours, the whole route is very busy and it would take ages, you’re probably adding at least an hour to the journey time.

 

Simon

I guess I’m old fashioned, preferring a longer run time on a diversion to either changing trains or forced onto replacement buses. Luckily although I know people due to go to London next week for meetings I am only locally based. If I decide to go to the Eastleigh mod-ex next weekend in a couple of weeks I can drive instead of going by train on what I suspect will still be a disrupted timetable.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by john new
Had the Eastleigh show date wrong in my mind.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It’s potentially a fair point.  As a franchise I would be guessing that a replacement bus service would operate to meet contractual terms.

 

But that no longer matters when the DFT is responsible.

 

Organising a replacement bus service during the week when schools are operating is always a big challenge!

 

Even if the TOC pulled out all the stops the answer is frequently 'not till the school runs have finished' from most suppliers.(Its one of the reasons big blockades are usually done during school holidays) and i doubt the DfT being in charge has changed that aspect!

 

However these days its even tougher as there is a chronic shortage of bus drivers nationally many having jumped ship during / after the pandemic for better paid roles. with many operators struggling to cover their own requirements and not able to help out.

 

So rather than bashing the TOC for non provision (believe me the amount of times I see the desperation in control logs when busses are being impossible to procure) I sugest you think long and hard about the realities of post Covid Britain where lots have things outside the control of the railway industry are significantly worse than before 

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, john new said:

I guess I’m old fashioned, preferring a longer run time on a diversion to either changing trains or forced onto replacement buses. Luckily although I know people due to go to London next week for meetings I am only locally based. If I decide to go to the Eastleigh mod-ex next weekend in a couple of weeks I can drive instead of going by train on what I suspect will still be a disrupted timetable.

 

 

There are a limited number of paths via Havant & Guildford which can be used for Southampton / Bournemouth / Weymouth services subject to crew knowledge.

 

Plans are being made to extend Exeter services to Reading (rather than terminate at Basingstoke) where possible 

 

Additionally Pilotman working is being put in place between Farnborough and Basingstoke so that down trains can run 'bang road' along the up Fast. However speed is limited to 50mph  on plain line, 15mph over points and a shunt move needs to happen at Farnborough to transfer from the down fast to up fast so train throughput is looking like 1 tph is the maximum which can be run.

 

The up slow is having the stopping trains removed so as to facilitate running all up trains on it.

 

This is of course all contingent on the embankment slip not progressing further and endangering the Up fast - and with the huge quantity of rain / snow being forecast in the next few hours / days I wouldn't be surprised even the Up fast ended up having to be shut too.

Edited January 16, 2023 by phil-b259

[Ncarter2]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

A big issue will be container trains, the line between St. Denys and Fareham isn’t cleared for container traffic, so that’ll have to run via Salisbury and Worting Junction (assuming that that line is cleared for container traffic).

 

Simon

Vast majority of container traffic goes via Reading, along the BKE’s, so not affected by the slip.  It’s mainly engineering trains that go along the mains and via Virginia Water to use Kew Junction or along the RDG1 to reach latchmere Jn. These are route cleared via Fareham. 
The line to Salisbury from Worting is cleared, it’s the main diversion route when the main route is under possession. The Warminster line is another route that can be used. 

[Ncarter2]

24 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

There are a limited number of paths via Havant & Guildford which can be used for Southampton / Bournemouth / Weymouth services subject to crew knowledge.

 

Plans are being made to extend Exeter services to Reading (rather than terminate at Basingstoke) where possible 

 

Additionally Pilotman working is being put in place between Farnborough and Basingstoke so that down trains can run 'bang road' along the up Fast. However speed is limited to 50mph  on plain line, 15mph over points and a shunt move needs to happen at Farnborough to transfer from the down fast to up fast so train throughput is looking like 1 tph is the maximum which can be run.

 

The up slow is having the stopping trains removed so as to facilitate running all up trains on it.

 

This is of course all contingent on the embankment slip not progressing further and endangering the Up fast - and with the huge quantity of rain / snow being forecast in the next few hours / days I wouldn't be surprised even the Up fast ended up having to be shut too.

Add to that resourcing the Pilot staff, not really enough MOM’s to cover that, they are thinly spread already. 
Having done it before between Redbridge and Brockenhurst, it was pulled when we ran out of hours and no one else was available. 
Given the know bank formation in the area, I’d be surprised if they don’t rebuild under all four lines, it would be shortsighted to not. 

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said:

Add to that resourcing the Pilot staff, not really enough MOM’s to cover that, they are thinly spread already. 
 

 

Although staffing is an ever present issue (thanks to the DfT mandated post Covid recruitment freeze) its not as bad as it seems - as all trains are going in one direction the Piolotman can stay at Farnbrough and issue 'pilotmans tickets' to each train rather than ride with it.

 

A handsignalman is required at the Basingstoke end - and there is talk that if staffing allows then the section could be split into 2 sections (thus increasing throughput)

 

13 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said:

Given the know bank formation in the area, I’d be surprised if they don’t rebuild under all four lines, it would be shortsighted to not. 

 

I doubt a total reconstruction of the entire embankment would be attempted - the SWML is a simply too busy artery to completely suspend services on it for a week or more (outside of the usual Christmas - new year period).

 

One question that springs to mind though is how was the embankment widened in the area when the line was quadrupled and what was the extra fill made of? Is the area that failed part of the later widening (which in some places in the UK was done using unstable materials like loco ash etc) and is thus inherently not as stable as the original works?

Edited January 16, 2023 by phil-b259

[Ncarter2]

59 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

A handsignalman is required at the Basingstoke end - and there is talk that if staffing allows then the section could be split into 2 sections (thus increasing throughput)

It will be interesting to see how many still retain that competence. Maintenance certainly don’t. 

[Ncarter2]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

I doubt a total reconstruction of the entire embankment would be attempted - the SWML is a simply too busy artery to completely suspend services on it for a week or more (outside of the usual Christmas - new year period).

Agree there, but if the formation of the Up Fast is compromised

or has the potential, it may not be an option. I look forward to seeing the plans tomorrow when I’m back in the office, but both down roads will need to be worked on from what I have seen in photos from site, we know there is substandard formation at the location. Good point on the back fill, I will see if there are any records we keep in Asset Management. Ultimately, we can bodge and come back when it happens again or we do it right and sort it, either way, a touch few weeks for the Wessex Route. 

[phil-b259]

23 minutes ago, Ncarter2 said:

Agree there, but if the formation of the Up Fast is compromised

or has the potential, it may not be an option. I look forward to seeing the plans tomorrow when I’m back in the office, but both down roads will need to be worked on from what I have seen in photos from site, we know there is substandard formation at the location. Good point on the back fill, I will see if there are any records we keep in Asset Management. Ultimately, we can bodge and come back when it happens again or we do it right and sort it, either way, a touch few weeks for the Wessex Route. 

 

Put it this way, if entire reconstruction* is required then that will be programmed in for a Christmas at some stage. Its simply not viable for the industry to say 'sod it' as far as passengers go on this route (unlike with the Redhill to Tonbridge line a couple of years ago when that suffered a massive embankment failure) - particularly as doing a 'ground up' reconstruction* will take time to do. In the meantime NR will simply be looking at ways of getting the 4 tracks back up and running quickly - with a temporary speed restriction if necessary thus buying time for a more comprehensive plan of works which can be programmed in with much less disruption to passengers.

 

 

*i.e excavate back to natural ground then build the embankment back up with layers of geotextile membrane and properly assessed / graded, easy draining fill material which is less likely to slip

Edited January 16, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/video-major-disruption-expected-after-landslip-at-hook-hampshire-damages-main-line-from-waterloo-to-basingstoke-southampton-and-the-west

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, Ncarter2 said:

 The Warminster line is another route that can be used. 

 

Not right now!

 

The Salisbury - Warminster line is shut due to flooding

 

So is the line between Bournemouth and Brockenhurst due to flooding at Sway

 

There is also flooding causing track circuit failures at Netley (between Southampton and Portsmouth) meaning cautioning of trains and reduced capacity (Southern trains are going no further west than Portsmouth).

Edited January 16, 2023 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, john new said:

They, presumably will still run Southampton, Basingstoke, Reading as they do now. How many, if any,  go beyond Basingstoke on the SW main?  Hook is between Basingstoke and Winchfield so no bonus in running Salisbury - Worting Junction they would still end up west of Hook.
 

What line capacity is there for SW 159s to go Yeovil, Castle Cary and then onwards up the GW to Reading and beyond? Glad I’m not a train planner next week or needing to get up to London.

Meat and drink to an emergency service planner - provided you tell all those who think they know how to do it to go forth and multiply and let you get on with the job.

1.  Establish what of that infrastructure you can use and to what extent - the Up Fast might well be a no go but the Up Slow night be usable, possibly with a speed on it.  And even - although I doubt it could be resourced in this day and age - is the Up Fast available to be used for Single Line Working of Down trains?

2. Establish your opportunities for re-routing - route capacity, royute and traction knowledge and see if you can actually make anything workable via the various routes.

3.  Establish what you can do by simply feeding into other routes - e.g connections to/from Reading via Blasingsmoke, Sarum/Westbury, Yeov Jcn - Castle cary/Westbury (the last is pt. pretty useless by will take one train an hour based on what we used to do.

4.  Check resource balances and put together a trainplan which takes account - if you get a sensible one, of a commercial spec.

5.  Draw it all up and out it into effect.

 

But an awful lot depends on having the resources and that isn't necessarily as good a position as it used to be with reduced loco fleets, lack of traction/route knowledge and so on.   But a good sway to spend a night putting together something for Day 1 (that syage will have passed) before moving onto to a longer term plan.

Edited January 16, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Grovenor]

A decent P-way and S&T  team could slew the down fast into the upfast either side overnight then you would have one up and one downavailable with no need for pilot working or handsgnalling.

[Nick C]

From looking at RTT and Tracksy at various points today, it looks like they've been running some of the WOE trains (generally the ones to-from Exeter, rather than the shorter workings from Salisbury) to Reading. Some of the Weymouths have been running through, reversing over the crossover at Farnborough to run WD on the Up Fast - but that was taking about half an hour per train to do the two reversals. Everything else seems to be CAPEd at Basingstoke. I believe there was also flooding at Hamble this morning blocking the Portsmouth-Southampton line, which didn't help with diversions!

 

I'm not on Twitter, but from what I've read most of the complaints were more about SWR's handling of things - for example not allowing ticket acceptance via Reading (which is, after all, the same company - First Group).

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

A decent P-way and S&T  team could slew the down fast into the upfast either side overnight then you would have one up and one downavailable with no need for pilot working or handsgnalling.

Easy to do in BR days, perhaps, when all resources responded to the same call. But these days? And while the PW guys might manage to do the slews, I am a lot less certain about modern signalling, and the certification thereof, permitting anyone to mess with anything on such an ad hoc basis. The multiple contractual relationships, resulting from the balkanisation of the network and its suppliers, do not imply the likelihood of a swift and effective response on such occasions as this.