Landslip at Hook, Waterloo to Basingstoke route closed

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

When I was working in Wiltshire it was quite interesting to learn about passengers' different reasons - even there - for using either teh GWR route from Westbury compared with the LSWR route from Gillingham or Tisbury.  Some people who lived more conveniently for one or the other would drive to the further one depending on where they were heading in London or whatever else they had in mind.

With the flexibility offered by car ownership for people living in country villages it was something which had never previously occurred to me but it was an important factor for some people.

As a rule passengers don't travel to somewhere that the railways happen to have a principal station any more than the purpose of a holiday flight is to get to some foreign airport.  If you're travelling by train for part of a journey, it makes sense to use your car at the start of the journey in order to minimise any difficulties getting to the destination at the far end of the rail journey - you can't do it the other way round !  The choice of rail route is affected by cost and ease of travel over the whole of the journey, not just the rail leg.

[jim.snowdon]

On 16/01/2023 at 14:33, Grovenor said:

A decent P-way and S&T  team could slew the down fast into the upfast either side overnight then you would have one up and one downavailable with no need for pilot working or handsgnalling.

Exactly as was done when the up lines slipped at Berrylands back in the 1970s.

 

[john new]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget what SWR have already cut (at the behest of DafT)

Agree, Weymouth lost 50% of the London services which meant 50% off most SWR services in Dorset too.

[PaulRhB]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

WoE stick a regional service 2 coach service Exeter to Salisbury.

 

 

A two car might handle Yeovil to Axminster but it won’t cope East or West of that stretch! 
You can virtually guarantee a Exeter service short formed will leave people behind as the main traffic isn’t commuters which is the bit that has dropped. The car park at Salisbury is rammed again most days now. 

 

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Cut Salisbury to Basingstoke instead of Waterloo, with a shorter train.

And you dump 3-400 people on narrow platforms at Basingstoke trying to get onto already busy ten cars from Bournemouth? That causes chaos when there’s trouble East of Basingstoke now and they turn round all the 159’s at Basingstoke!

I think you need to know the area a little better to start making such claims or back it up with some actual figures. I’m getting trains sent back out of diagram order all this week because there isn’t the capacity in Barton Mill to turn them all round. We are swapping units around like mad at a Salisbury to make sure the ones low on fuel don’t end up on long diagrams and run out of fuel down West. I’ve been spotting numbers as they arrive past the box the last two days to help the depot avert that. 
Oh and that ‘spotting’ isn’t actually part of my job we just do it to help out the passengers get to their destinations. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by PaulRhB

[Dunsignalling]

I've been watching OpenTrainTimes between other activities today, Paul.

 

You have my sympathy; it seems to have been "One of those Days" with an absolute vengeance!

 

John 

[PaulRhB]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I've been watching OpenTrainTimes between other activities today, Paul.

 

You have my sympathy; it seems to have been "One of those Days" with an absolute vengeance!

 

John 

It’s turning into one of those weeks! ;) 

[Ncarter2]

All being well, Monday morning there will be a two line railway operational between Pirbright Jn and Basingstoke. Slewing will take place this weekend, the Down Fast will be cut and slewed to join the Up Fast alignment either side of the slip. Other than a 50 speed through the slip site, line speed should be restored. 

[Ncarter2]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

What I find a little odd is that one Zone has paid, and is continuing to pay, considerable attention to this while another seems not to have - or were there more urgent needs that the site east of Hook?

I think you have hit the nail on the head. The WOE line gives the geo team headaches most of the year, desiccation which has become an ever prevalent problem over the last several years, well more so than normal. Wallers Ash portal, Buriton Tunnel, Honiton, Fareham Tunnel, Botley are just some of the site that have required intervention and/or continued intervention over the last few years. Add to that, there has been the big slip at Botley which shut the route for a period, and the previous slip just outside Basingstoke on the Down slow. We have a site on the New Guildford line which had substantial works undertaken, piling etc, but even that didn’t prevent movement during the summer as the bank shrunk. As always, comes down to finance, the work back far outweighs what the money can cover. 

[john new]

In the last few years also a lot of cutting stabilisation work at Bincombe between the tunnel mouth and the (now) farm access bridge that was formerly the A354. The SW main line has had work done.

[Northmoor]

SWR used to be much better at managing around "events" - when they had the joint Control Centre - but tonight's experience of SWR didn't inspire confidence. 

With basically everything West of Woking except the Portsmouth and Alton services cancelled, Waterloo to Woking services have gone from about 12 trains per hour to 4 fasts/semi-fasts and 2 stoppers.  The 2000 Portsmouth was five coaches and at least 30 standing in the front coach, so presumably the same in every one.  The next semi-fast was the 2023 Alton, which was four coaches.  Conditions didn't look too pleasant on that either.  Where is all the stock?  Even accepting it's quieter than usual because so many have taken SWR's advice not to travel, Thursday is still the busiest commuting day of the week; 4/5 coaches every 25 minutes is completely inadequate for the traffic.  This week, Woking needs a dedicated fast shuttle to Waterloo.

Excellent to hear of NR's efforts to temporarily re-configure the line West of Hook by next Monday.  This sort of response is all too rare so well done NR.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

SWR used to be much better at managing around "events" - when they had the joint Control Centre - but tonight's experience of SWR didn't inspire confidence. 

With basically everything West of Woking except the Portsmouth and Alton services cancelled, Waterloo to Woking services have gone from about 12 trains per hour to 4 fasts/semi-fasts and 2 stoppers.  The 2000 Portsmouth was five coaches and at least 30 standing in the front coach, so presumably the same in every one.  The next semi-fast was the 2023 Alton, which was four coaches.  Conditions didn't look too pleasant on that either.  Where is all the stock?  Even accepting it's quieter than usual because so many have taken SWR's advice not to travel, Thursday is still the busiest commuting day of the week; 4/5 coaches every 25 minutes is completely inadequate for the traffic.  This week, Woking needs a dedicated fast shuttle to Waterloo.

Excellent to hear of NR's efforts to temporarily re-configure the line West of Hook by next Monday.  This sort of response is all too rare so well done NR.

I understand from various sources that the decson to resite the NR Control and thus n move it away from SWR's Control has had two results.  The obvious one is that the two aren't now alongside each other .  But there is another less obvious effect and that's arisen because some of the senior and more experienced staff in the NR Control weren't prepared to travel to work in the new location so took the money and left (and according to a couple I lunch with occasionally feel much happier having done so!).

 

Something of a lack of joined-up thinking going on in NR land is the message people have conveyed to me.

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, Northmoor said:

SWR used to be much better at managing around "events" - when they had the joint Control Centre - but tonight's experience of SWR didn't inspire confidence. 

With basically everything West of Woking except the Portsmouth and Alton services cancelled, Waterloo to Woking services have gone from about 12 trains per hour to 4 fasts/semi-fasts and 2 stoppers.  The 2000 Portsmouth was five coaches and at least 30 standing in the front coach, so presumably the same in every one.  The next semi-fast was the 2023 Alton, which was four coaches.  Conditions didn't look too pleasant on that either.  Where is all the stock?  Even accepting it's quieter than usual because so many have taken SWR's advice not to travel, Thursday is still the busiest commuting day of the week; 4/5 coaches every 25 minutes is completely inadequate for the traffic.  This week, Woking needs a dedicated fast shuttle to Waterloo.

Excellent to hear of NR's efforts to temporarily re-configure the line West of Hook by next Monday.  This sort of response is all too rare so well done NR.

 

With all the cancellations, there should surely be enough spare units available to strengthen what does run to 8/10 car formations. 

 

Or don't the electrics have Selective Door Operation like the 159s? 

 

John

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Northmoor]

27 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

With all the cancellations, there should surely be enough spare units available to strengthen what does run to 8/10 car formations. 

 

Or don't the electrics have Selective Door Operation like the 159s? 

 

John

The 450/444s certainly DO have ASDO as 6/12-car services run to Alton; Ash Vale and Bentley platforms are 8 and 6 coach length respectively  and you get plenty of announcements telling you to be in the right carriages.  Bagshot, Camberley and Frimley also have short platforms.

[Mike_Walker]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I understand from various sources that the decson to resite the NR Control and thus n move it away from SWR's Control has had two results.  The obvious one is that the two aren't now alongside each other .  But there is another less obvious effect and that's arisen because some of the senior and more experienced staff in the NR Control weren't prepared to travel to work in the new location so took the money and left (and according to a couple I lunch with occasionally feel much happier having done so!).

 

Something of a lack of joined-up thinking going on in NR land is the message people have conveyed to me.

Interesting.  I was under the impression (obviously misguided) that there was a general move to integrate NR and TOC controls into the same room for that very reason.  Certainly that's the case on GWR at Swindon and both sides work closely and harmoniously together - so I'm told by both the boss and one of his control minions...   😀

 

Why the change of heart at SWR/NR Wessex?

[Grovenor]

On 18/01/2023 at 22:48, Ncarter2 said:

All being well, Monday morning there will be a two line railway operational between Pirbright Jn and Basingstoke. Slewing will take place this weekend, the Down Fast will be cut and slewed to join the Up Fast alignment either side of the slip. Other than a 50 speed through the slip site, line speed should be restored. 

Good to hear my suggestion being followed. Despite those on here saying iwould be to difficult.

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Good to hear my suggestion being followed. Despite those on here saying iwould be to difficult.

 

Its not a case of being too difficult - but these days such work has to be properly planned (and checked) in advance, particularly the signalling alterations. The last thing you want is for a stray wire or link to be left in place because it hadn't been documented and cause another Clapham style accident would you?

 

That all takes time - plus not forgetting arranging resources including RRVs etc need to be marshalled and no doubt extra contractors acquired.

[KingEdwardII]

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

don't the electrics have Selective Door Operation

They certainly do for the units that operate down to Southampton & beyond - several of the stations south & west of Basingstoke have short platforms and yet are regular stopping points for the 10-coach trains through to Bournemouth.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Michael Hodgson]

11 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That all takes time - plus not forgetting arranging resources including RRVs etc need to be marshalled and no doubt extra contractors acquired.

They could do it in the old days, and red tape from health and safety wasn't the issue.

 

The reason they have to bring in contractors is understaffing of in-house infrastructure maintenance.  The reason Railtrack went bust was lack of engineering knowledge at board level resulting in insufficient competence in a critical aspect of their core business.  It's down to the TOCs to run the trains, but Network Rail is responsible for keeping routes operable when traffic requires.  That means more than long term planning and placing contracts with third parties; it means having enough of the right people on call when problems need to be fixed - both in engineering and in operations.  This all goes back to the way the then government decided to privatise the industry.

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 it means having enough of the right people on call when problems need to be fixed - both in engineering and in operations.  This all goes back to the way the then government decided to privatise the industry.

No. I would suggest that it is an actuarial assumption by NR on how much on-call will be needed, and budgetary provision to match. Paying people to sit tight and maybe do nothing, which is how you procure on-call, is anathema to bean-counters. 

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

No. I would suggest that it is an actuarial assumption by NR on how much on-call will be needed, and budgetary provision to match. Paying people to sit tight and maybe do nothing, which is how you procure on-call, is anathema to bean-counters. 

Which is presumably why it seems to take at least two days to get a grip on any significant incident these days! ☠️

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They could do it in the old days, and red tape from health and safety wasn't the issue.

 

The reason they have to bring in contractors is understaffing of in-house infrastructure maintenance.  The reason Railtrack went bust was lack of engineering knowledge at board level resulting in insufficient competence in a critical aspect of their core business.  It's down to the TOCs to run the trains, but Network Rail is responsible for keeping routes operable when traffic requires.  That means more than long term planning and placing contracts with third parties; it means having enough of the right people on call when problems need to be fixed - both in engineering and in operations.  This all goes back to the way the then government decided to privatise the industry.

 

No - but the 'good old days of 'no red tape' is what led to the Clapham Junction crash! (amongst other things) not to mention large numbers of workers suffering from injuries. We have moved on since those 'good old day' - the requirements in terms of planning, competencies and working hours are all far more stringent, but the result is worth it.

 

In any case even in 'the good old days' BR didn't have teams of folk sitting there doing all just in case a big job came along. Yes they might have been sourced more quickly but other jobs would have had to have been deferred to free them up.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by phil-b259

[john new]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

No. I would suggest that it is an actuarial assumption by NR on how much on-call will be needed, and budgetary provision to match. Paying people to sit tight and maybe do nothing, which is how you procure on-call, is anathema to bean-counters. 

One of the underlying problems probably goes way back to a school of financial dogma coming out of (IIRC) the Audit Commission namely the 3 Es. (Economy, Efficiency & Effectiveness) It was the early 1980s and I was a Local Government manager at the time. For clerical processing that wasn’t unduly difficult to assess; but for the doings part of the organisation, for exactly what you state about needing on-call staff and flexibility, getting to attain two out of the three made achieving the other in any mix very difficult.
 

Exactly like later privatisation/splinterisation of the rail network the reorganisations for rigid internal contracts and then competitive tendering made flexibility harder and harder as time progressed. It was, however, supposedly the political will of the people passed down by elected reps (local & national) so we did our best to make it work as I am sure modern rail managers are trying to do too. It wasn’t easy, the resultant stress I blame for needing a later heart bypass and early retirement in a later round of redundancies. Getting out in 2008 the best move I ever made despite a reduced pension. 
 

I guess today’s managers are in an even worse pickle as political dogma has led to even more splintering, rigid contracts and repeated changes of structure.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by john new
Typos corrected

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

No. I would suggest that it is an actuarial assumption by NR on how much on-call will be needed, and budgetary provision to match. Paying people to sit tight and maybe do nothing, which is how you procure on-call, is anathema to bean-counters. 

The question I suppose is do they actually have any senior people On Call?  I know from those who work there that on a couple of Zones there are no senior Zone level operations people On Call - it is all left to the chief shift c Controller in the Zone Control Office

[phil-b259]

31 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The question I suppose is do they actually have any senior people On Call?  I know from those who work there that on a couple of Zones there are no senior Zone level operations people On Call - it is all left to the chief shift c Controller in the Zone Control Office

 

I understand from what I see on control logs that there is always a director 'on call' within NR to respond to particularly disruptive incidents such as this.

 

Fortunately in this case the slip was noticed mid way through a weekend possession anyway when the regional director is likely to have been able to be contacted (even if they were not officially on duty) as opposed to it happening in the middle of the night 

 

 

 

 

[Oldddudders]

I would hope that above a certain - not very high - level, anyone can expect to be hauled out of bed when needs must. Being on-call was a standard part of junior and middle operations and engineering management in my BR days. Often shared, of course. As a local manager it was alternative weeks, as a Divisional On-Call Officer it was one week in five.