Landslip at Hook, Waterloo to Basingstoke route closed

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I would hope that above a certain - not very high - level, anyone can expect to be hauled out of bed when needs must. Being on-call was a standard part of junior and middle operations and engineering management in my BR days. Often shared, of course. As a local manager it was alternative weeks, as a Divisional On-Call Officer it was one week in five. 

But seemingly - from what Controllers have said - no Zone On Call ops officers nowadays on a couple pf Zones (and maybe more?).  So what we used to get as 'run-of-the-mill' types things as Regional On call Ops Officers simply gets dealt with by Control  now.  I don't doubt that there are very senior folk at Director level who are quickly advised for major incidents but i wonder how many of them are qualified in Rules & Regs as we had to be for Regional (or indeed any other level) of Ops On Call and could therefore give advice and make decisions in that respect?

[Southernman46]

"As for the slip site there have been some interesting comments but one thing I find a little odd is the lack of attention to what seems to be a site with a history and apparently some concern about the embankment.  I contrast this with the Western Zone of NR where considerable preventative work has taken place not only on various long known slip sites - some of which haven't moved for many years - but also at sites where it would seem the present regime have had concerns and have set about dealing with things to avoid or mitigate the risk of slips.  What I find a little odd is that one Zone has paid, and is continuing to pay, considerable attention to this while another seems not to have - or were there more urgent needs that the site east of Hook?"

 

This comment from Mike the Stationmaster is significant. My personal experience bears this out - I was part of the Track Maintenance team at Woking responsible for this area (and others between Winchfield - Basingstoke  and up the BKE to Reading in the late 2000's. We paid very close attention to the Track Geometry and ensuring that with our best efforts we kept the DS (and US) straight and level - quite a challenge at times. At all stages this information was being flagged upwards into the NR organisation about the clearly rapidly declining state of the earthworks in the area because frankly it wasn't our track that was the issue. I still have e-mails and photos in my possession from around 2007-2009 detailing these concerns and the frankly dismissive attitude displayed by the NR Earthworks organisation not only here but also in reference to the site just west of the Crown Lane underbridge (West of Hook) that slipped about 4 years ago causing significant disruption to the DS & DF, requiring massive expensive remedial works. This includes very interesting site visits and (by personal experience)  dismissive attitudes by the attending Earthworks Engineers. I didn't consider going over their heads at the time - This view has been tempered in recent times as I simply couldn't understand why this situation has been permitted to develop since. I can only assume these concerns never reached the right level - all heresay I know, but I reckon the physical evidence has been graphically demonstrated.

 

There was a small scheme in 2009 to stabilise the foot of the embankment close this site where the River Whitewater passes under the entire embankment in 2 culverts - successfully I understand.

 

Below is my photo taken in 2009 from pretty much the same position as Mark Killick is standing in the Down Slow. The DS RH rail can be noted slumping again after some significant track lifting adjacent to the milepost. Also is a photo from 2007 before the signal gantry was erected in the distance showing the kind of short-notice track issue we were presented with. There is also a photo from 1960 showing the site with a similar problem (might be the US side though) - as a diligent Track Engineer,  trouble was taken to research the site history when being responsible for it - it's just railway - it shouldn't be hard - forewarned is forearmed ! (History tells - e.g. the Russians learnt nothing from the 19th century before going into Afghan - neither did the "Allies" 2nd time around). The slip issues at this site occur in a plain between the DF / DS and UF / US in a rotational manner stemming from the 1908 (?) quadrupling when the additional spoil added for the DS & US either side of the core 2-track embankment appears to have been ill-consolidated - coupled with the fact that the whole embankment here "floats" over a 250-yard wide swath of alluvial deposit from the River Whitewater - not the greatest support.

 

To sum up IMHO opinion with some inside knowledge is that this area has been apparently mis-managed from an earthwork aspect for the last 10 years resulting in the consistently poor and dare I say it dangerous condition that has become obvious (from the slip incidents) experienced in the last 4 years. NR are VERY LUCKY not to have ended up with a major derailment on one of these sites. I was on the penultimate train to traverse the Down Fast past this site at speed on Friday night so my personal feelings can be well imagined !! They ONLY got away with this one because the line was closed all weekend from Friday night for planned engineering work - this failure could EASILY have been discovered by a train running on the DS of DF in the dark at speed with all the devastating consequences of that.

 

For all NR's "aren't we doing well to repair it" propaganda - someone should be asking some searching questions about their apparent previous mis-management ! Whether this has been down to Organisational, Systematic or Individual failings within NR - who knows BUT the evidence is there for all to see - 2 chains of track swinging in the breeze in a totally uncontrolled wrong-side failure scenario - The NR Business Plan (I have retained copy of it such have been my concerns with this site) from 2009 makes interesting reading.

 

As for the Operational chaos, I have real sympathy for SWR (and I am often their worst critic) - they must be heartily sick of having to cope with NR's consistent bungling of infrastructure issues on the SWML and this time I can only praise their attempts to run a service around and past this latest NR disaster - albeit with some interesting connection mis-thinking between Reading - Basingstoke GWR services and the departure of the only (for an hour) WOE EStD sevice some 2 minutes earlier - REALLY GUYS ?? 

 

Additionally working in East London and travelling to / from Somerset - I can also say that the recent ability to now travel directly from / to Custom House via Crossrail (I just can't use the new name - sorry Ma'am) to / from Reading and onto Basing, is absolutely superb - no horrible cramped Jubilee Line or the seeming endless trek to / from to Platform 900 at Waterloo to experience.

 

There are those out there I am sure will think my comments above are ill-formed, unstructured, unreasonable and inappropriate BUT I lived this issue for 3 years directly and have been both concerned and suffered considerably from its' mis-management as a passenger since - almost becoming a potential victim this time (given a few hours and some bad luck).

 

NR NEED TO DO BETTER - the luck WILL run out.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Southernman46

[Oldddudders]

Southernman's heart's-outpouring is stark. Had his worst fears been realised, and a major derailment occurred, an Inquiry might have ensued, with lots of airing of this sort of evidence. Even so, I do wonder whether the local MP might be interested in this history of neglect. BR had a lively Soil Mechanics organisation. I wonder what happened to that in the blasé Railtrack era?

[Dunsignalling]

41 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Southernman's heart's-outpouring is stark. Had his worst fears been realised, and a major derailment occurred, an Inquiry might have ensued, with lots of airing of this sort of evidence. Even so, I do wonder whether the local MP might be interested in this history of neglect. BR had a lively Soil Mechanics organisation. I wonder what happened to that in the blasé Railtrack era?

 

Indeed, though we should be wary of continuing to blame Railtrack for shortcomings that Network Rail has had many years to correct, just as governments criticise the legacies of predecessors while failing to deal with the actual issues.

 

John

Edited January 21, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[45655]

As a matter of interest, how close is the site of this slip to the 1961 slip?

 

Keith

Alton.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Indeed, though we should be wary of continuing to blame Railtrack for shortcomings that Network Rail has had many years to correct, just as governments criticise the legacies of predecessors while failing to deal with the actual issues.

 

John

I know they've had 'many years' John but from personal observation they had an awful lot of catching up to do -  some perhaps even dating back to the cash strapped days of BR.  I commented on the former WR situation because the amount of work done, and being done, has been very noticeable from simply looking our of the train window.

 

This compares starkly with the Railtrack era when money intended for maintaining the infrastructure was disbursed as 'profits'  by the most senior decision makers in the company and civil engineers were being starved of the money they needed simply to keep the infrastructure safe for train operation.    NR faced a massive backlog although having said that I still go back to my original comment about what appears to me to be a disparity between Zones

[Dunsignalling]

21 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I know they've had 'many years' John but from personal observation they had an awful lot of catching up to do -  some perhaps even dating back to the cash strapped days of BR.  I commented on the former WR situation because the amount of work done, and being done, has been very noticeable from simply looking our of the train window.

 

This compares starkly with the Railtrack era when money intended for maintaining the infrastructure was disbursed as 'profits'  by the most senior decision makers in the company and civil engineers were being starved of the money they needed simply to keep the infrastructure safe for train operation.    NR faced a massive backlog although having said that I still go back to my original comment about what appears to me to be a disparity between Zones

Agreed, but the way history repeats itself is concerning.

 

Not many months ago, a landslip near Honiton tunnel that happened "on my watch" twenty-odd years ago was almost perfectly replicated. On this occasion, fortunately, without having a train off the road.  

 

After the previous slip was rectified (not a quick or cheap task), we were assured that improved and increased drainage, combined with a new inspection and maintenance regime would ensure it couldn't happen again.

 

What happens in the real world is that, as soon as most of the people who deal with such occurrences move on or retire, there is a (natural) tendency for newer staff to concentrate on what they can see falling apart....

 

I suspect this is also what has happened near Hook.

 

John

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Ncarter2]

A two line railway will be in operation from the morning. The works over the weekend being successful. 

[Ncarter2]

On 21/01/2023 at 13:49, Dunsignalling said:

Agreed, but the way history repeats itself is concerning.

 

Not many months ago, a landslip near Honiton tunnel that happened "on my watch" twenty-odd years ago was almost perfectly replicated. On this occasion, fortunately, without having a train off the road.  

 

After the previous slip was rectified (not a quick or cheap task), we were assured that improved and increased drainage, combined with a new inspection and maintenance regime would ensure it couldn't happen again.

 

What happens in the real world is that, as soon as most of the people who deal with such occurrences move on or retire, there is a (natural) tendency for newer staff to concentrate on what they can see falling apart....

 

I suspect this is also what has happened near Hook.

 

John

 

 

 

The landslip at Honiton was due to the incompetence of the contract firm, it wouldn’t be right to discuss/disclose the details, there is a current investigation underway. I will say, had it have been managed correctly, the slip wouldn’t have happened. 
 

I will agree to a point on newer staff only concentrating on what can be seen. One of the biggest issues I see over and over, is the lack of hand over between staff when they move on. Add to that, the new individual wants to manage their way, things very quickly get lost/forgotten. 

We should not forget that engineers no longer run the railway, it’s bean counters, the very mention of prevention in maintenance generally results in work being shut down/declined as unnecessary cost. They don’t look at bigger picture, it’s very much the hear and now and react. 
 

As for Hook, the whole of the site is on a risk register and monitored. The site which slipped showed no signs. During the summer months when other sections suffered from the effects of desiccation, this site held firm, again, following the onslaught of the inclement weather, other sites have shown movement, this site didn’t. Only two days prior, there had been dynamic recording on the Down Slow, the track was as stable as it had been for the previous 6 months if not longer. Add to this, the site had recently been inspected from the track, again no signs of concern. This doesn’t mean that the site is forgotten, but it also doesn’t mean that because it’s a known area of previous concern, that it will be subject to works, just in case. It’s was a sudden and unexpected failure. 
Unfortunately, the slimed down work force, the targets being pushed by the gov and their effects on senior managements way of thinking, the ever reduced access but increased tonnages all result in affecting how the many issues are managed and prioritised. 

[Northmoor]

Here's a visual update from the site (well, about half a mile away) today.  As a temporary fix it's quite impressive how this has been implemented with only a 50mph restriction.

 

First 450117/035 on the Basingstoke stopper, about to swing from the DF onto the UF formation.

 

This is a view of the worksite (and the big hole in the embankment), with the same unit pair on their return along the US.

[jamie92208]

Yes a very good bit of work.  It looks as if they've donevit so there are no signal sighting problems either. Regardi g the speed restriction it was probably as cheap to do it for 50 as for a lower limit. Just needed a bit more of the Up Fast removing.  Thanks for the pictures.

 

Jamie

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Yes a very good bit of work.  It looks as if they've donevit so there are no signal sighting problems either. Regardi g the speed restriction it was probably as cheap to do it for 50 as for a lower limit. Just needed a bit more of the Up Fast removing.  Thanks for the pictures.

 

Jamie

Signal sighting is rarely an issue along that stretch - it's pretty much arrow straight for nearly 14 miles... The curve visible in the background of that photo is a trick of perspective, and is maybe 100m deviation over the course of about a mile...

[Hal Nail]

A view from on the train. Bit of a jolt as we slewed over onto the line of the removed up fast.

 

Hard to be certain from the perspective but I suspect the slew had to be quite sharp to retain use of the signal immediately before it.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Hal Nail