Modeller survey 2023

[PeterStiles]

1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

My querying the S&DJR livery wasn't so much about whether it was prototypical, as much as it being an odd choice from a marketing point of view

Ah, well, you see... the Hornby 4/6 wheelers in S&DJR livery are due out this summer. It's accidental good fortune that Hornby were able to get some motive power to match sorted out in time.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I am in minor awe of people who have this sort of spread interest who own several layouts in different scales, UK, American, industrial, narrow gauge, Euro, Hornby tinplate.  I couldn't do it, couldn't so easily transfer my thought processes from, say, 0 gauge UK industrial steam to N gauge American current practice; too much to inform myself about to achieve the modelling and operating standards I'd want, but plenty of folk do do this, and very successfully to a high standard as well.  Couldn't afford it either, but that consideration has never stopped me doing anything I want badly enough...

 

 

Personally, I find it easy to switch from Narrow Gauge to Standard Gauge, or from American to European, but most of my modelling is in the same scale: HO, so there is a common reference point (it’s like travelling from one place to another).

 

It probably helps that my projects are small (usually just two locos each) and I’m not trying to be too detailed.

________________________________________

 

In terms of the Survey, I wonder if there might be further analysis at some point?  I think @AY Mod hinted there might be when there’d been time to read through more of the detail?  There’s no rush of course - and with the BRM Awards and the Doncaster Show on top of the usual deadlines, I imagine time feels very scarce.  I just wondered, as the thread is still open?

 

It’s interesting reading the comments and conversation - something I think should spring from a helpful survey.  I’m not a sociologist, by my understanding of how a good survey works at the top level however is framed something like this:

 

1.  Is the aim of the research clear?  Yes - to build a picture of general trends in the hobby.

2.  Is the sample size big enough?  Yes - 1,000 respondents is a healthy response that should be enough to see trends, and to iron out any unusual responses (and any misunderstandings on our part when filling in the questionnaire).

3.  Is the population surveyed either:

a)  weighted to be representative of a wider population, or

b)  if not, is there a clear understanding of who is represented by the sample surveyed?

Again, Yes - b) it’s a survey of 1,000 RM Web users who could self-select whether to respond while the survey was open.

 

While we all have our own individual perspective and unique story to share that can make any of us feel quite different to others (me included), the aggregate picture when it’s all added up can at the same time give an informative overview it’s harder to see at ground level.  Just a thought - the continued interest suggests it’s already been a good exercise, thanks to Andy.  Have a good weekend, especially those travelling to Doncaster, Keith.

[Andy Hayter]

With Andy's blessing I am looking at the numbers and have been reporting some conclusions already.  However do understand that my time for this is not infinite and I will be this on an as and when basis.  I will however publish data as each analysis is completed rather than do an all singing and all dancing report in many months time.

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

My querying the S&DJR livery wasn't so much about whether it was prototypical, as much as it being an odd choice from a marketing point of view (other than it looks nice) - better in terms of range consistency to have LMS and BR versions with appropriate rolling stock. Additionally, all the preserved examples are either in LMS or BR livery (or in bits!).

 

Would I buy an 8750 to a similar standard? Not for myself, mostly because I've got several already! But for a son or nephew to foster their interest in railways - absolutely! They're not too worried about the shape of the chimney, that the wheel spacing might be a few scale inches out, or that the connecting rods are wrong (and nor am I, quite frankly!). But would I buy them a £160 tank loco? Probably not!

 

To my mind, a Pannier is something that absolutely should be in the Railroad range. Once they've got the Holden tank, a couple of coaches and some wagons, it's the obvious next step.... (And, like the Jinty, it's a type - or at least similar enough to a type - that sees regular use on a number of preserved railways).

 

I'm pretty sure one at the MRC is still in S&DJR livery. Was the last time I looked anyway, which was not long before Lockdown.

 

I believe it's in the queue after they finish the other one* and is currently on static display.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/47327-lms-16410-lms-7327-and-br-47327/

 

 

*Which will go back to it's 1970s red as 16440 like the Hornby model from the late 1970s. So the red one will be authentic again!

 

 

Jason

[Keith Addenbrooke]

9 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

With Andy's blessing I am looking at the numbers and have been reporting some conclusions already.  However do understand that my time for this is not infinite and I will be this on an as and when basis.  I will however publish data as each analysis is completed rather than do an all singing and all dancing report in many months time.

Thanks Andy, and thanks for picking this up - no mean feat going through 1000 responses, especially when it comes to the “anything else you want to say” open comment at the end.  As I noted in my own post, there’s no rush.  In the context of a Forum discussion, I think reporting on each analysis as and when also makes sense.  All the best, Keith.

[Jol Wilkinson]

11 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

Personally, I find it easy to switch from Narrow Gauge to Standard Gauge, or from American to European, but most of my modelling is in the same scale: HO, so there is a common reference point (it’s like travelling from one place to another).

 

It probably helps that my projects are small (usually just two locos each) and I’m not trying to be too detailed.

________________________________________

 

In terms of the Survey, I wonder if there might be further analysis at some point?  I think @AY Mod hinted there might be when there’d been time to read through more of the detail?  There’s no rush of course - and with the BRM Awards and the Doncaster Show on top of the usual deadlines, I imagine time feels very scarce.  I just wondered, as the thread is still open?

 

It’s interesting reading the comments and conversation - something I think should spring from a helpful survey.  I’m not a sociologist, by my understanding of how a good survey works at the top level however is framed something like this:

 

1.  Is the aim of the research clear?  Yes - to build a picture of general trends in the hobby.

2.  Is the sample size big enough?  Yes - 1,000 respondents is a healthy response that should be enough to see trends, and to iron out any unusual responses (and any misunderstandings on our part when filling in the questionnaire).

3.  Is the population surveyed either:

a)  weighted to be representative of a wider population, or

b)  if not, is there a clear understanding of who is represented by the sample surveyed?

Again, Yes - b) it’s a survey of 1,000 RM Web users who could self-select whether to respond while the survey was open.

 

While we all have our own individual perspective and unique story to share that can make any of us feel quite different to others (me included), the aggregate picture when it’s all added up can at the same time give an informative overview it’s harder to see at ground level.  Just a thought - the continued interest suggests it’s already been a good exercise, thanks to Andy.  Have a good weekend, especially those travelling to Doncaster, Keith.

 

How representative of the general modelling public is RMWeb, though?

 

1000 responses is certainly a good sample to work from, but does the platform attract a truly broad representation of the hobby in general? I ask that because I know a quite a large number of modellers, the majority of whom don't frequent RMWeb. Granted, most of them are in minority sectors of railway modelling, EM, P4, pre-grouping. pre BR and only very occasional RTR buyers.

 

Of the other forums of which I am a member (three railway modelling and two historical railway societies) two a fairly inactive and three very active but are focussed on scales/gauges other than OO/N and very much less focussed on RTR products.

 

I therefore believe the survey is a good indicator of where RMWeb members' interests lie but perhaps doesn't fully reflect on those who model outside what may be called the mainstream. As already been said, and despite some of the interesting analysis carried out, the survey can only be  fairly broad picture of where the hobby is going.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Jol Wilkinson
Additional text

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

How representative of the general modelling public is RMWeb, though?

 

1000 responses is certainly a good sample to work from, but does the platform attract a truly broad representation of the hobby in general? I ask that because I know a quite a large number of modellers, the majority of whom don't frequent RMWeb. Granted, most of them are in minority sectors of railway modelling, EM, P4, pre-grouping. pre BR and only very occasional RTR buyers.

 

Of the other forums of which I am a member (three railway modelling and two historical railway societies) two a fairly inactive and three very active but are focussed on scales/gauges other than OO/N and very much less focussed on RTR products.

 

I therefore believe the survey is a good indicator of where RMWeb members' interests lie but perhaps doesn't fully reflect on those who model outside what may be called the mainstream. As already been said, and despite some of the interesting analysis carried out, the survey can only be  fairly broad picture of where the hobby is going.

 

I'd say you'd struggle to find a more representative (and accessible) selection. The majority of people within your circle are at the finescale end whereas the Facebook/Twitter/Youtube circle is certainly more towards the other end in the main and I'd say the latter outnumber the former substantially. Facebook groups, by definition, have a bias toward one aspect or another.

 

I'm not making claims that it is representative of the whole but I think it's as balanced as you will get as there is a wide spectrum of skill/interests here plus an adequate number of bodies to participate to avoid a significant bias.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Andy,

 

I largely agree, except that I don't think that surveys on RMWeb reflects all the hobby sufficiently, but then neither would one by the Scalefour Society, the Gauge O Guild, etc.

 

Jol

 

 

[spamcan61]

I think it depends on who we define as being within "the hobby" 

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I don't think that surveys on RMWeb reflects all the hobby sufficiently

 

Which parts of the hobby would you say we are missing (yes, there could be far more segmentation of niche scales and overseas content) and are those missing parts going to change the outcomes of a survey for the UK market?

[Nearholmer]

To me, it seemed a pretty good survey to investigate maybe what might be called the 10th to 90th percentile, which is probably what is of interest  to magazine editors and most commercial suppliers.

 

There are bound to be “outliers”, and I pointed out earlier that it seems to miss “retro modellers”, the sort f bds who inhabit “vintage and collectable” on RMWeb, but since we tend to buy a blend of twenty-second hand stuff, and things from very niche suppliers who know most of their customers individually, I doubt that really matters. The same probably applies to hyper-finescale bods, who have their own eco-system of niche suppliers (very finely  wrought niches, measured to the hundredth of a millimetre).

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Nearholmer

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

As Andy (York) has noted, the Survey was to gauge general trends and I believe it achieves that. I can think of no Survey that would account for me, personally, in what I model, but I 'fit within' broader parameters.

 

To give you an idea of how 'niche' Andy would have to go to collect loads of data...

 

I have two layouts: one at normal waist height; one above at eye level. Both were designed to be 'representative/inspired by' certain locations where I could closely replicate workings, dependant on what stock I run at any given time.

 

The lower layout baseboards are 'normal' 2" x 1" frame with Sundeala surface. In effect, a 'looped eight' style with reversing loops.

 

The upper - which only needed to be 'light construction' - was made with 1" x 1/2" framing with Sundeala. Cantilever type supports. This is 'folded dog-bone' style.

 

The  upper layout is more 'watching trains go by' with a tad of shunting. It's a double-track 'country station with small goods yard', more typical of many MR layouts but still 'generic':

1958 for ER (GE section, somewhere on the Liverpool St-Cambridge main line, prior to Broxbourne)

1960 for WCML (a double-track section, all trains diverted via Northampton!)

1960 for Midland main line (a double-track section, such as just north of Market Harborough)

 

For the lower layout (which has a large station, two platforms with through roads plus loco shed, carriage sidings and freight sorting sidings):

1959 for ER (GN section, Hitchin)

1960 for SR (Exeter Central), WR (Oxford or Newton Abbot)

 

Additionally...

• I don't run to timetable but run to a 'realistically random sequence' with locos and stock rostered to services. (Note that it's more demanding running to a random sequence! That sequence of inbounds is determined by how trains navigate my reverse loops.)
• I didn't do much in the way of scenery.
• I only buy what locos and stock I need for those settings and work to a long-term purchasing plan. 
• I don't buy to 'collect' nor do I buy 'on impulse.
• I 'weather' locos and stock where needed.
• I use an analogue handheld controller with minimal feedback. All points switched by hand. Common return wiring.
• I have built wagon kits in the past but don't anymore as my needs are now mainly sufficed from RTR.
• I only do 'basic servicing' of my locos. Anything more requires sending to a repairer.
• I don't belong to a model railway club, but do belong to a couple of societies and three on-line groups. Oh...and The 00 Poll Team of course!
• I tend to not buy magazines as I have been modelling for years and have done what I needed to do (although I am an RMweb Gold member and read BRM - and enjoy much of it.)
• I go to fewer shows than I once did due to my wife's increasing disability. I tend to stay more local.

 

So...that's me in a nutshell!

 

If I were to do the same for just my 00 Poll Team colleagues, we'd fill up several pages with very little overlap! But what we do have in common is modelling happiness, engaged conversation and constant learning. 🙂

 

Brian

[Helmdon]

while we're on niches, I do belong to a model railway club, but we exist pretty much entirely to operate a layout that in parts is now 50 years old rather than to build anything new. It's not portable, and is intrinsically part of the building it is in. But it does have a fully staffed and stocked bar...*

 

so when asked if I was a member of a club, I obviously said yes - but not sure what inferences can be drawn from that (and I do insight for a living!)

 

On the other hand, because I do insight for a living, I'm pretty happy that this is a good survey that we would charge a client money for, so a valid exercise and a worthwhile use of the time of those drawing it up and analysing it. 

 

*absolutely no prizes for guessing which club 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Helmdon

[Jol Wilkinson]

7 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Which parts of the hobby would you say we are missing (yes, there could be far more segmentation of niche scales and overseas content) and are those missing parts going to change the outcomes of a survey for the UK market?

 

Andy, 

 

my view is simply that, if those niche activities aren't included (for practical reasons) then a survey can't represent all those in the hobby. How far it is representative depend of course on how many modellers it can include. As one who may be considered as being a niche modeller - 4mm P4, pre-grouping and who prefers to make as much as I can from kits or scratch - then I am probably fairly outside the "mainstream". 

 

Of all the modelling friends and acquaintances I have made over many years, the majority model in P4 or EM, but several also in OO, O and two also in 5" gauge. However, only two or three are members of RMWeb and so the others are outside the sphere of any survey. 

 

I fully accept that  my modeling interests are not going to be represented in such a  survey, nor does Brian M's annual survey take into account what I or those like me would like to see produced, concentrating as it does on the major RTR/RTP manufacturers. C'est la vie.

 

Jol

 

 

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

It doesn't represent me, probably applies to over half of the people who responded.

We are all individuals and our particular slant on the hobby cannot be 100% represented in a global survey.

 

On the issue of club membership, I am not a member of a modelling club because the nearest club is an hours drive away on roads that at this time of the year might be described as "interesting" at night with temperatures well below zero.  However, when I was a club member back in the UK,

we had members who worked actively on club layouts,

we had members who came to run their stock on the club layouts,

we had members who actively worked on their own layouts which would later be exhibited with the club flag attached,

we had members who would help the above with their private layouts, 

we had members who came for a chat, cup of tea and to read through the library items

and we had members who would do a mix of some or all of the above.

 

So club membership in itself is probably as broad a church as all of the individuals who are not club members.

[JohnR]

I think RmWeb is not representative of the demographic that might be described as those with an interest in and consumer of things related to Model Railways. 

 

I would say the forum skews more towards those who might be described as "finescale" modellers (in the wider sense), ie those who build kits, those who build layouts, often for exhibition use (or at least to a similar standard), etc. We are more likely to consume a magazine like MRJ, or be a member of a scale society than the average modeller. 

 

Just look at the posts in the many facebook model railway groups for instance. Theres a lot of people whose idea of railway modelling is nothing like what you see on here. And I mean lots. 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

I think RmWeb is not representative of the demographic that might be described as those with an interest in and consumer of things related to Model Railways. 

 

I would say the forum skews more towards those who might be described as "finescale" modellers (in the wider sense), ie those who build kits, those who build layouts, often for exhibition use (or at least to a similar standard), etc. We are more likely to consume a magazine like MRJ, or be a member of a scale society than the average modeller. 

 

Just look at the posts in the many facebook model railway groups for instance. Theres a lot of people whose idea of railway modelling is nothing like what you see on here. And I mean lots. 

It might be more appropriate to describe RMWebbers as very interested in Model Railways, i.e. trying to create layouts or combinations of models that reflect what can (or once could) be seen on an actual railway. There are other reference books besides the Hornby catalogue! 😉

 

Layouts on which random model mixtures of prototypes from different areas, eras, and even countries (many of which would be incapable of being operated together) just whizz round, aren't really model railways at all, they are train sets. If that term is considered pejorative, maybe "active collections" would be more acceptable.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with making that choice, but it is a choice. Indeed, many of "us" are not above similarly "playing trains" when the fancy takes us but we don't do only that, and when such liberties are taken, we are conscious of what we are doing!  

 

So yes, most on here probably are "skewed" in favour of a level of authenticity about which many others don't seem to know (or care if they do).

 

Becoming a "fine-scale modeller" requires a whole different level of skill and workmanship.

 

John

Edited February 10, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Peter Kazmierczak]

8 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

 

The lower layout baseboards are 'normal' 2" x 1" frame with Sundeala surface. In effect, a 'looped eight' style with reversing loops.

 

The upper - which only needed to be 'light construction' - was made with 1" x 1/2" framing with Sundeala. Cantilever type supports. This is 'folded dog-bone' style.

 

 

 

 

Sundeala - now that is niche...  

[BMacdermott]

16 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I fully accept that  my modeling interests are not going to be represented in such a  survey, nor does Brian M's annual survey take into account what I or those like me would like to see produced, concentrating as it does on the major RTR/RTP manufacturers. C'est la vie.

Jol

 

Hello Jol

 

I don't wish to take us off-topic, but The Poll Team is always open to receiving suggestions.

 

In 2022, we listed four LNWR locos, three types of LNWR passenger stock and one item of NPCCS. Due to space constraints, much Pre-Group freight stock was listed 'generically', such as: Freight Stock LNWR.

 

Broadly speaking, LNWR locos and coaches tend to be higher up the ratings than many others in the LMS categories.

 

Don't forget that Hardwicke has been made and the 18" Goods was the second most-wanted LMS Locos category loco in 2022. Elliptical Roof stock was third in LMS Coaches and Freight Stock LNWR was the top-voted freight item. 

 

For 2024, I have been working with a number of Pre-Group enthusiasts and we are aiming to list about three items of each of the (main) companies. Typically - but not exclusively - they will be a Brake Van, a Covered Goods Van and an Open Goods Wagon (all detailed with build dates and diagram numbers) with the proviso that they will be items that no self-respecting Pre-Group company layout can run without.

 

All suggestions are given 'a fair hearing'.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

 

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

with the proviso that they will be items that no self-respecting Pre-Group company layout can run without.

 

Subject to date - the pre-grouping period spans pretty well half the period public railways have existed in this country, or say about three-quarters of a century if you want to separate out the "early railways" period. So anyone modelling, say, c. 1880 is likely to be disappointed. (To face commercial reality, anyone modelling much before c. 1910, since any wise manufacturer will have an eye to sales in grouping and early BR liveries.)

[BMacdermott]

Thanks Stephen - but I'm keen to not go off-topic. It was simply a reply for Jol's benefit.

 

Brian

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Thanks Stephen - but I'm keen to not go off-topic. It was simply a reply for Jol's benefit.

 

Appreciated - but allow me my staircase moment*:

 

It is those modelling the grouping and early BR periods whose layouts will gain in realism from the availability of pre-grouping rolling stock.

 

*I will argue that this is not entirely thread drift since one has to suppose that an already discernible trend among the more enterprising manufacturers must reflect a trend in modelling tastes; perhaps even showing an increase in historical awareness among the sort of modellers who frequent RMWeb and hence are the pool from which the sample responding to the survey are drawn. (In looking at this survey we should always have that sample bias in mind.)

[BMacdermott]

Thanks Stephen

 

Point taken and accepted.

 

What I was trying to do was 'lay down a marker' for those who will seize any moment to go way off topic. It happens very quickly!

 

Brian

Edited February 11, 2023 by BMacdermott

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Jol

 

I don't wish to take us off-topic, but The Poll Team is always open to receiving suggestions.

 

In 2022, we listed four LNWR locos, three types of LNWR passenger stock and one item of NPCCS. Due to space constraints, much Pre-Group freight stock was listed 'generically', such as: Freight Stock LNWR.

 

Broadly speaking, LNWR locos and coaches tend to be higher up the ratings than many others in the LMS categories.

 

Don't forget that Hardwicke has been made and the 18" Goods was the second most-wanted LMS Locos category loco in 2022. Elliptical Roof stock was third in LMS Coaches and Freight Stock LNWR was the top-voted freight item. 

 

For 2024, I have been working with a number of Pre-Group enthusiasts and we are aiming to list about three items of each of the (main) companies. Typically - but not exclusively - they will be a Brake Van, a Covered Goods Van and an Open Goods Wagon (all detailed with build dates and diagram numbers) with the proviso that they will be items that no self-respecting Pre-Group company layout can run without.

 

All suggestions are given 'a fair hearing'.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

 

 

Brian,

 

despite the ratings LNWR locos and stock receive in your poll, in the forty years or so I have been modelling the LNWR only two LNWR period RTR locos have been introduced, the Coal Tank and Improved Precedent. To date there are no accurate - I would even say realistic - carriages or wagons to go with them. There is one RTP LNWR building, a slightly inaccurate rendition of a signal box.

 

Of course that may change but unless you are willing to build models from kits, your ability to "model" the LNWR (or other pre-group railways) is extremely limited.

 

LNWR and other pre-group modellers have been very well served by kit manufacturers for decades. Some LNWR kit producers have come and gone (GEM, M&L and PC come to mind) while the products of others have been absorbed into different kit manufacturer's ranges (e.g. D&S, Connoisseurs Choice). Kits are readily available from at least four suppliers.

 

So while LNWR scores well in your poll, is that converting into people actually modelling the LNWR? I don't think so. Why, because it means building models from the kits that are available.

 

I have been involved, in an unpaid voluntary role, with London Road Models virtually since the business started. Has the introduction of the RTR locos created any additional sales of rolling stock kits. The answer is definitely no. Sales of L&Y carriage kits increased marginally and briefly after the introduction of the  L&&Y 2-4-2T in 2016. These coaches have a simpler two tone livery than the LNWR, with with no lining. At the same time sales of loco kits that have been introduced as RTR models are adversely affected.

 

You may therefore appreciate my somewhat cynical view of the increased interest in pre-group modelling. If it turns into actual modelling with greater sales for the pre-group producers of kits for locos, carriages, wagons, buildings, signals, etc.  I shall be delighted. Somehow though, I don't see much of that happening.

 

In your closing line you say "All suggestions are given a fair hearing". How about including a section in the poll aimed at the kit suppliers. Many of the items you list are already available as kits, but there are areas where some gaps exist. I am mainly thinking of infrastructure where new technologies can produce, in small volumes and at reasonable prices, kits for buildings, bridges, signals, etc. that are more accurately modelled on the prototype than many of the generic products we are offered. I don't do wish lists but would vote for an accurate modular ki/parts for an LNWR North light engine shed and an LNWR  standard small goods shed.  But reality intervenes and I know I will have to scratch build them, something I shall enjoy doing.

 

Jol