Styal Line trials in the 1960's

[montyburns56]

Just now, russ p said:

 

Were there any reports of it actually working a passenger train or was it purely a training loco?

 

Well the caption says that it was just a training trip.

[keefer]

On 29/01/2023 at 23:08, dave75 said:

Is this the track effect tests after it was worked out how much hammer the AL6s were inflicting on the PW. 

A Deltic, AL5 and AL6 were run up to 125mph at Cheddington in 1970 according to OS Nock.

The Cheddington 'high-speed' and Wrinehill 'dipped joint' tests are detailed at:

http://www.traintesting.com/high_speed_testing.htm

http://www.traintesting.com/dipped_joint tests.htm

 

[jim.snowdon]

On 30/01/2023 at 20:40, paulbb said:

It always struck me as strange though, to test the efficacy of a system -the 25kv ac - that had already been 'proved' by SNCF engineers.

Even now, there is an unhealthy element of 'not invented here' about Britain's railways and their engineering.

 

[Michael Edge]

That’s not exclusive to the UK , common in lots of other countries as well.

[Oldddudders]

On 30/01/2023 at 21:40, paulbb said:

 It always struck me as strange though, to test the efficacy of a system -the 25kv ac - that had already been 'proved' by SNCF engineers.

ISTR a Trains Illustrated (predecessor title of Modern Railways) comment at the time that the German 15kv system might have better been adopted, since TI felt traffic patterns in that country more comparable to the UK than were those of France. And the German installations had been in use since well before WW2, compared to initial SNCF trials in the post-war period. 

[Sitham Yard]

On 31/01/2023 at 17:59, russ p said:

 

Were there any reports of it actually working a passenger train or was it purely a training loco?

The Railway Magazine, December 1958, has an article on the loco presumably based on a BR press release, no author named. It states "It is only to be used for testing overhead line equipment and to train instructors and drivers for the main-line electrification to Crewe."  

 

In the February 1959 issue there is an article, again no author named, on the electrification between Crewe and Manchester. This contains a photo of E1000, with class A headlamps, "at Mauldeth Road on November 26, 1958, after its initial run with a passenger train on the Styal line from Wilmslow." Doesn't mean that there were actually any passengers on board.

Andrew 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

ISTR a Trains Illustrated (predecessor title of Modern Railways) comment at the time that the German 15kv system might have better been adopted, since TI felt traffic patterns in that country more comparable to the UK than were those of France. And the German installations had been in use since well before WW2, compared to initial SNCF trials in the post-war period. 

Hi Ian

 

The adoption of 25Kv AC meant the OLE itself was lighter for the same power available at contact wire, not only reducing weight but cost. The voltage only needed to be transformed down not rectified as well.  Saying that the mercury arc rectifiers on board the AC locos didn't enhance their reliability. 

 

This is just speculation but in 1950s Britain we needed to be seen as embracing  modern technology, not ideas from pre war, especially German.

[paulbb]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Ian

 

The adoption of 25Kv AC meant the OLE itself was lighter for the same power available at contact wire, not only reducing weight but cost. The voltage only needed to be transformed down not rectified as well.  Saying that the mercury arc rectifiers on board the AC locos didn't enhance their reliability. 

 

This is just speculation but in 1950s Britain we needed to be seen as embracing  modern technology, not ideas from pre war, especially German.

Possible but the adoption of hydraulic diesel locos, though not built in Germany were certainly inspired by West German experience. The class 14 even was inspired by the V60, though importing them was definitely verboten!

[pete_mcfarlane]

BR was busy building virtual copies of German V200 diesel hydraulic locos at the time, so it can't have been down to anti-German sentiments. That was more of a post WW1 thing. 

 

It's most likely that they trusted the French logic behind 25Kv but needed a small scale pilot to gain engineering experience. The technical reasons for 25Kv are down to the ease of taking electricity from the National grid. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

BR was busy building virtual copies of German V200 diesel hydraulic locos at the time, so it can't have been down to anti-German sentiments. That was more of a post WW1 thing. 

 

It's most likely that they trusted the French logic behind 25Kv but needed a small scale pilot to gain engineering experience. The technical reasons for 25Kv are down to the ease of taking electricity from the National grid. 

Exactly so.  the Srtal line was a testbed for BE;s bew designs for 25kv cateb nary and ohle structures. These were subsquently refined, and costs reduced as the new 25kv electrification spread.  That is the main reason why the original Styal Loop ohle was 'stiffer' than all subsequent Br designs of catenary - a situation which prevailed (with in some cases the stiffness being even further reduced hence the situation on part of the GNML  - until the new design, from Switzerland, was used on the GWML.

[jim.snowdon]

On 05/02/2023 at 10:10, Oldddudders said:

ISTR a Trains Illustrated (predecessor title of Modern Railways) comment at the time that the German 15kv system might have better been adopted, since TI felt traffic patterns in that country more comparable to the UK than were those of France. And the German installations had been in use since well before WW2, compared to initial SNCF trials in the post-war period. 

The most significant part of the SNCF electrification was not the voltage, but the frequency. Until the mercury arc rectifier had been made robust and reliable enough to function on a moving vehicle and thus enable the use of DC traction motors AC electrification had been limited to low frequencies - 16 2/3Hz in Europe and 25 Hz in the USA. These are low enough to allow series motors to be used on AC without the eddy current and inductive losses reaching intolerable levels. Those low frequencies are still the norm in the Germanic countries and Sweden, and bring with them the need to create a separate high voltage grid network just for the railways, with the attendant cost and complication of low frequency generation and/or frequency converters. The significance of the French project was in taking power directly from the national 50Hz supply without the complications of frequency changing or parallel low frequency supply networks. Raising the voltage from the Germanic 15kV to 25kV simply reduced the weight of the catenary system and increased the distance between supply points. Apart from reducing the number of costly supply points, this makes it easier to find places to tap into the national grid at high voltages - Network Rail currently takes in supplies from the 400kV grid network where it can as this not only provides a higher level of power security but minimises the unbalancing effects of large and fluctuating single phase loads on the three-phase power supply network. Equally, having longer electrical sections increases the number of trains in section and flattens out the power demand simply through the law of averages.

[rodent279]

On 05/02/2023 at 11:31, Clive Mortimore said:

The voltage only needed to be transformed down not rectified as well.

How so? Unless you are using series wound motors at a low enough frequency for starting a load, you have To rectify the 25kV A.C. as well as transform to a lower voltage.

[rodent279]

On 05/02/2023 at 10:57, Sitham Yard said:

The Railway Magazine, December 1958, has an article on the loco presumably based on a BR press release, no author named. It states "It is only to be used for testing overhead line equipment and to train instructors and drivers for the main-line electrification to Crewe."  

 

In the February 1959 issue there is an article, again no author named, on the electrification between Crewe and Manchester. This contains a photo of E1000, with class A headlamps, "at Mauldeth Road on November 26, 1958, after its initial run with a passenger train on the Styal line from Wilmslow." Doesn't mean that there were actually any passengers on board.

Andrew 

E2001 was known as "Black Bess" to those involved in the testing. I like to think that is something to do with Dick Turpin's steed on his ride to York, but I suspect it's origins are somewhat more base.....

[Clive Mortimore]

28 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

How so? Unless you are using series wound motors at a low enough frequency for starting a load, you have To rectify the 25kV A.C. as well as transform to a lower voltage.

Rectifiers are devices that convert the AC supply into the DC supply. Therefore to turn 132Kv AC off the grid to 1500V DC you need a transformer and a rectifier. Plus more expensive and heavier OLE for the same power to be available. As you seem to understand electrics this is because the current is higher.

 

If you had quoted the next sentence, I did state that the mercury arc rectifiers on the the AC locos didn't enhance their reliability. Both on board transformers and rectifiers were required for the DC traction motors in use when 25 Kv AC was adopted. 

[rodent279]

7 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Rectifiers are devices that convert the AC supply into the DC supply. Therefore to turn 132Kv AC off the grid to 1500V DC you need a transformer and a rectifier. Plus more expensive and heavier OLE for the same power to be available. As you seem to understand electrics this is because the current is higher.

 

If you had quoted the next sentence, I did state that the mercury arc rectifiers on the the AC locos didn't enhance their reliability. Both on board transformers and rectifiers were required for the DC traction motors in use when 25 Kv AC was adopted. 

Ah, I get you, I misunderstood that you were referring to not needing to rectify the AC supply to the OHL, you weren't referring to rectifying on board.