Marston Vale Line Woes

[andyman7]

On 15/02/2023 at 19:38, Ray H said:

 

Am I missing something here?

 

As quoted above there are (currently) unlikely to be any passenger trains until much later in the year due to the limited lengths of the platforms limiting the choice of train that can be used. To my mind that means that the platforms won't see much if any use in the intervening time.

 

Question 1: How long (timewise) would it take to increase the platform lengths?

Question 2: Whilst I understand that there is to be some potential rationalisation of stations between Bletchley & Bedford that will bring about some station closures, will the above mentioned short platforms continue to limit the stock to be used once the Bletchley/Bicester section is open or will the remaining platforms need to be lengthened before then anyway?

Question 3: Will any new build work - platform extensions or new station platforms - mean further periods of no trains and/or possessions?

 

On 16/02/2023 at 09:37, Ray H said:

And hidden behind this is no doubt a shortage of LNW crews with the branch crews being used to fill gaps in the Euston service. One of these days new franchisees will learn that there has to be a level of extra staff (apparently over and above the rostered number) to cover leave, short term absence and promotion/retirement.

 

I'm sure some of the longer serving LNW staff must have worked the Class 150s & 153s - the latter incidentally must be shorter than the platforms - so if there was a will I doubt it would take too long for their stock refresher training and, with a little persuasion of the relevant unions, could involve the setting up of a short term small dedicated link primarily to work the "branch" whilst the remaining crews went through the full stock training.

 

One thing that needs doing sooner rather than later is to start routinely running something - a light loco might suffice - to keep the crews road trained otherwise the autumn re-start will get pushed back even further because although the crews will be stock trained, their route knowledge will have expired (and by the time everyone's road training is complete) they will, no doubt, require stock refresher training.

 

On 16/02/2023 at 13:11, DY444 said:

 

No such thing as franchises or franchisees any more.  The TOCs that are not being run by the so-called Operator of Last Resort are all on management contracts with literally just about every penny of expenditure requiring DfT authorisation and minimising costs the only objective. 

 

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the intermediate stations were just closed.  Ditto Stourbridge Town branch due to the ailing PPMs. 

Outside the immediate issues here, none of the longer term problems (platform length, future stock provision etc) are going to be considered outside EWR stage 2 which takes over this part of the route and which the Government has recently (re) committed to. Stage 2 options include what to do with the stations, because if you are going to go for modern fully accessible stations with adequate platforms there is a challenging but realistic discussion about replacing at least some of the current stations with slightly fewer better sited ones.

 

[adb968008]

At risk of being controversial…

 

but is there any point in running a train service if the demand is so peripheral and the bus is doing fine ?

 

How much bedford to bletchley demand is there ?

 

is it just railways for railways sake ?

Edited February 19, 2023 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

At risk of being controversial…

 

but is there any point in running a train service if the demand is so peripheral and the bus is doing fine ?

 

How much bedford to bletchley demand is there ?

 

is it just railways for railways sake ?

In Silverlink days it was taken seriously, as was the Users' Group, led a by Richard Crane (?), which was given management time. No doubt the gradual demise of all the trad industries towards the Bedford end have reduced user. East-West Rail's ultimate aim of rejoining Oxford and Cambridge will keep things in public view.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, andyman7 said:

 

 

Outside the immediate issues here, none of the longer term problems (platform length, future stock provision etc) are going to be considered outside EWR stage 2 which takes over this part of the route and which the Government has recently (re) committed to. Stage 2 options include what to do with the stations, because if you are going to go for modern fully accessible stations with adequate platforms there is a challenging but realistic discussion about replacing at least some of the current stations with slightly fewer better sited ones.

 

For any serious alterations to be made to the line it will require some major investment for a lot more than the stations.  The big problem is the mix of stations and level crossings as a major factor in influencing the way it can be signalled and the impact on line speeds and capacity.  That isn't going to go away and it will cost somebody a lot of money to sort or they will have little option but to accept the present position.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The big problem is the mix of stations and level crossings as a major factor in influencing the way it can be signalled and the impact on line speeds and capacity. 

I can't see why there's still a level crossing at Ridgmont.  The A507 has a roundabout each side of the line about 100 yards away, and a bridge connecting the two, with through traffic signposted that way.  The signalman for the route is probably the only person routinely to use the crossing and then only if he happens to live on the other side of the line from the ugly Portacabin that passes for a signalling centre.  Must be the most solid case for closure of a crossing I've seen.

[woodenhead]

I imagine closing a through road and making it a dead end is as hard as it is to close a railway line.

 

At least there is space on the other side of the station to extend the platforms, it looks like a good station for commuting to the logistics zone next door.

[chris p bacon]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

At risk of being controversial…

 

but is there any point in running a train service if the demand is so peripheral and the bus is doing fine ?

 

How much bedford to bletchley demand is there ?

 

is it just railways for railways sake ?

It's some time since I travelled the line, but as well as passengers heading each way it has a high usage of children going to school in Bedford to the Harper trust schools. I was unable to get a seat on many occasions as the services were well patronised.

[petethemole]

Coming from that general area ISTR one of the reasons the Bedford - Bletchley section survived when the rest of the route closed was the schools traffic.  In my own school days I knew people who travelled from most of those stations; also from Sandy and Potton but this was before closure.

[Mike_Walker]

6 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

In Silverlink days it was taken seriously, as was the Users' Group, led a by Richard Crane (?), which was given management time. No doubt the gradual demise of all the trad industries towards the Bedford end have reduced user. East-West Rail's ultimate aim of rejoining Oxford and Cambridge will keep things in public view.

In those days Silverlink had the advantage of having Mark Hopwood as their MD.  He a) knows how to run a railway and b) keen to involve user groups.  Marston Vale was one part of his patch he took a particular interest in.

 

Sadly the current management aren't so proactive.  Richard Crane is still active in the user group but says it's an uphill battle to make a difference.

[andyman7]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

For any serious alterations to be made to the line it will require some major investment for a lot more than the stations.  The big problem is the mix of stations and level crossings as a major factor in influencing the way it can be signalled and the impact on line speeds and capacity.  That isn't going to go away and it will cost somebody a lot of money to sort or they will have little option but to accept the present position.

That is all part of the CS2 EWR programme

[adb968008]

Using wiki as a source (I know), it showed collectively 200k entries/exits along the way last year, 50% of that being Bedford st Johns.

 

That translates to roughly 600 a day, if thats returns, then its 300, and seems to suggest it maybe even less if all they are doing is commuting from anywhere enroute, to Bedford St Johns and back…

 

And if much of that is kids/discounted fares… Bletchley to Bedford st johns return.. £6.25 (peak) x300.. £1875 per day…. it only gets worse, drops below £4 off peak, £3 odd return for some… and thats based on the whole line round trips.. some fares are even less !!!

 

I’m reckoning its somewhere around £500-800 a day in revenues… i’m sure my local bakery does that every day.

 

Whats the daily rate of a unit, plus driver, guard, fuel ?.. …

 

wiki suggests around £460 daily hire fee,  80p mile maintenance, 1l a mile in fuel c£1 p/l) , for a 2 car set… 18p per mile track access charges*

 

so 17x (30 mile round trips c£16 maintenance, c£30 fuel, TAC £5.40)  = c£873 + £460 hire fee  = £1333.. plus staffing, management and all the other activities associated with it…  i’m reckoning its a whopping loss maker.

 

Whats a double deck bus to hire .. £500 a day ? 

 

wiki suggests a 150 costs approx double a class 230… if LNW wanted to kill this service, dropping the 230 is certainly a way to do it.. then finger point to the dft, but I suspect the costs are better managed with a bus.

 

*track access charges

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/cp6-access-charges/CP6 access charges/2022-2023 price lists/Track Usage Price List 22-23 Prices.xlsx

ps…

(I wonder how often someone pays 59p a mile to drive a class 25/3 on Network Rail ?).

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by adb968008

[chris p bacon]

Bedford St Johns is traffic to the Hospital* and one of the Bedford Girls schools,  Bedford Midland would be the destination of the rest of the schoolchildren. 

 

The last figures I knew of there were 8/9 private schools in Bedford with a 8000 children attending, with the schools discouraging being dropped by car a high % attend by train/bus. 

 

*It's cheaper to go from Either Stewartby or Kempston Hardwicke to BSJ rather than pay for the hospital car park.

[Davexoc]

Perhaps what is needed is some sponsorship, we could have Red Bull Racing Bow Brickhill and Amazon Ridgmont for starters....

Thinking of the future under EWR though, would it be concievable to create a link with the MML near Millbrook?

If you look how close the two lines are just north of the Proving Ground, it could be a way of getting stoppers out of the way of the Oxford - Bedford fast service, providing of course there is space to slot them into the MML services.

[adb968008]

32 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

Bedford St Johns is traffic to the Hospital* and one of the Bedford Girls schools,  Bedford Midland would be the destination of the rest of the schoolchildren. 

 

The last figures I knew of there were 8/9 private schools in Bedford with a 8000 children attending, with the schools discouraging being dropped by car a high % attend by train/bus. 

 

*It's cheaper to go from Either Stewartby or Kempston Hardwicke to BSJ rather than pay for the hospital car park.

Put Didcots Railmotor, Swanages 121 or a preserved 142 on it… the revenues would jump from enthusiasts very quickly.

 

Failing that get a Parry People mover… 3.6p a mile track access charge.

 

:-)

Edited February 19, 2023 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

In those days Silverlink had the advantage of having Mark Hopwood as their MD.  He a) knows how to run a railway and b) keen to involve user groups.  Marston Vale was one part of his patch he took a particular interest in.

 

Sadly the current management aren't so proactive.  Richard Crane is still active in the user group but says it's an uphill battle to make a difference.

Mark only arrived after the Silverlink franchise had been running for several years, under Charles Belcher, who went off to run Wessex Trains in early 2001. John Brooks was Route Director for the WCML and branches part of Silverlink, and it was he who had forged links w Richard Crane. Mark came to manage London Lines, which NEX hastily devised after the Hatfield disaster brought the industry to its knees. London Lines, initially under Dominic Booth, centralised management of Silverlink, WAGN and LT&S at Hertford House, enabling Melton House, Watford, to be vacated. 

[Mike_Walker]

Having known his a good friend since he was about 12, I'm well aware of Mark's career progression and the fact remains that he put a lot of effort (and still does) into promoting parts of his "empires" that he feels might otherwise be neglected and that includes encouraging user groups to the full.  Somehow, I can't imagine this debacle having been allowed to continue if he were in charge.

 

He's the "manager's manager".  As Chris Green once said: "There's probably not a TOC MD that hasn't got him on speed dial and regularly seeks his advice".

[31A]

According to the latest Branch Line News (journal of the Branch Line Society) the scheduled train service takes 42 minutes end to end.  The replacement limited stop coach takes 67 minutes and the replacement all stations bus takes 85 minutes.  Eight buses are needed to replace two trains.  So although the train isn't fast, it still seems to be quite a bit faster than the alternative!

 

[Rugd1022]

18 hours ago, petethemole said:

Coming from that general area ISTR one of the reasons the Bedford - Bletchley section survived when the rest of the route closed was the schools traffic.  In my own school days I knew people who travelled from most of those stations; also from Sandy and Potton but this was before closure.

 

Not to mention the traffic to and from the surviving brickworks and Liddlington Tip. Some of our aggregates trains still use the line during the night when a diversion is necessary. It's one of the few occasions when you get a clear run from end to end at full line speed, as the level crossings aren't nearly as busy as they are during the day. In the old days you had to whistle up at the distant signals to get the bobbies to close the crossings in time.

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Mark only arrived after the Silverlink franchise had been running for several years, under Charles Belcher, who went off to run Wessex Trains in early 2001. John Brooks was Route Director for the WCML and branches part of Silverlink, and it was he who had forged links w Richard Crane. Mark came to manage London Lines, which NEX hastily devised after the Hatfield disaster brought the industry to its knees. London Lines, initially under Dominic Booth, centralised management of Silverlink, WAGN and LT&S at Hertford House, enabling Melton House, Watford, to be vacated. 

And Charles - who I kew well - was also a pretty proactive and 'turned-on' manager.  Not in the same mould as Mark but a very competent chap. 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, andyman7 said:

That is all part of the CS2 EWR programme

No doubt - but whatever scheme or proposal is going to fund any changes it won't make any difference to the various inhibiting factors and the costs of mitigating or getting rid of them.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

No doubt - but whatever scheme or proposal is going to fund any changes it won't make any difference to the various inhibiting factors and the costs of mitigating or getting rid of them.

The bit of the route that is causing problems is the Cambridge end.  They can't use the old route because of the Mullard Observatory.  It currently looks as though they will cross the ECML south of St Neots, probably near Black Cat roundabout on the A1, which is a regular traffic bottleneck, with a new station at the intersection (probaby an interchange between the two lines and close the existing station?) then follow the A429 which is being doubled and diverted from its existing route as far as Caxton Gibbet. 

 

 

From Caxton there is the question of whether they take the (officially preferred) southerly route past the still growing new town of Cambourne and join the already busy Foxton-Cambridge line to use track to be quadrupled from Shelford Junction through the planned new station at Addenbrooke's/Papworth Hospitals, but that is running into a lot of Nimby protest in the posh Harston area.  More likely they will take a northerly route serving even bigger new housing developments at Northstowe et al and run enter the city via the recently opened Cambridge North station, as favoured by the local (Tory) MP.

 

Cambridge just can't cope with car commuters and Congestion Charging is imminent with a ULEZ zone also probable.  On top of that, recently a lot of the surrounding villages have just had their bus services slashed in order to improve frequency on the Park & Ride, but that causes problems for those who don't drive as many used the timetabled buses that have been withdrawn to get to work or school.  So the locals are up in arms, and fares on the buses services have been temporarily reduced to £2 and there is currently free parking at the Park and Ride.  Clearly it will help matters if these massive new housing developments gain a decent local train service.

[jamie92208]

I know that a 142 was mentioned toungue in cheek above but surely therecarevenough 144's in preservation to get say threebof them on a short term basis from the current owning railways.  As far as I know they weren't life expired.  I also realise that unleashing pacers near London would not go down well with the chattering classes but something  would be better than nothing.  The railway can act fast when it needs to such as at Workington after the floods.   Does anyone fancy a challenge.

 

Jamie

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I know that a 142 was mentioned toungue in cheek above but surely therecarevenough 144's in preservation to get say threebof them on a short term basis from the current owning railways.  As far as I know they weren't life expired.

They are not PRM-compliant and their grandfather rights were extinguished. 

[Oldddudders]

28 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

They are not PRM-compliant and their grandfather rights were extinguished. 

Thus doth the industry cheerfully paint itself into a corner. 

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Thus doth the industry cheerfully paint itself into a corner. 

And we all know that if the political imperative was there the minister would happily sign a time limited waiver.  Can we arrange a convenient byelection.

 

Jamie

Edited February 22, 2023 by jamie92208