HST - XC & GWR sets gone by the end of the year

[Brinkly]

Greetings all,

 

Probably reasonably well know but just in case anyone has missed this else where.
 

Chatting to a couple of Cross Country members of staff today, their HST fleet (I believe five sets) are pencilled to be stood down by October. This is potentially subject to change but as our (GWR’s) remaining HST sets are due to go by the end of the year, I suspect this is will be their Indian summer. 
 

GWR will be down to five 2+4 sets by May - we currently have eight sets in service operating (usually) Penzance to Cardiff Central services. 
 

I will miss these old warriors. As a guard, they can be a right pain to work… dispatching from the TGS, front two doors at various stations between Bristol and Penzance, bikes (shudder), but my goodness I’m glad I’ve had the chance to work them! Full of character and charm. A train from my childhood. 
 

So if you fancy that last trip on a HST, best do it sooner rather than later!

Newton Abbot earlier this month.

 

Newton again about a year ago.

 

Catch them while you can!

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Having travelled on a few of them during my Cornish weelkend last September I found they quite nice to travel on and in a number of cases more than sufficiently well used to need a similar amount of passenger accommodation on whatever will replace them.  

 

But why do they run around with both engines running?

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

But why do they run around with both engines running?

 

When I first heard about the '2+4' proposal I assumed only the leading power car would be powered up, since surely 2,200hp would be more than enough to shift four coaches and a 'dead' PC on the rear - 4,400hp seemed total overkill (and then the operator complains of running costs!) It was certainly enough for a D800 Warship to haul heavy holiday trains over the Devon banks and along Cornwall's twisty and hilly main line. However I'm expecting somebody to post a technical explanation of the necessity to keep both PCs running anytime now......😉

 

It's incredible to think how long these trains have been around - I was 23 when I photographed the prototype HST on the WR in 1975, 24 when the production trains arrived ("wow look at that - a train with no buffers!") - next month I'll turn 70 and they're still here! Just!! I should take some photos here in Cornwall this year of these trains passing the similarly doomed semaphore signalling at Lostwithiel, Par and Truro. I'm already seeing more 5-car IETs, a reminder of the encroaching take-over.......

[rogerzilla]

I find it hard to believe they've had their money's worth from the MTU engines.  Railway financing is pretty obscure these days, though.

[40F]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Having travelled on a few of them during my Cornish weelkend last September I found they quite nice to travel on and in a number of cases more than sufficiently well used to need a similar amount of passenger accommodation on whatever will replace them.  

 

But why do they run around with both engines running?

 

They are being replaced by IET 5 car sets

[Brinkly]

The 2+4 GWR sets are being phased out for a couple of reasons. The main one is condition.

 

The fleet based at Penzance and Laira are very poor structural condition - as in kick the side and watch the crud drop out. The locos are in very poor shape too. 
 

Most of ours are close to 100,000 hours running and once that limit is reached, it’s really game over. Add in the unreliably of some Class 43 power cars (I’ve regularly worked to and from Bristol with one power car out) and that is the basis of withdraw. Not to mention them contributing 70% of the company’s overall emissions (that is the figure we have been told so I can only go on that).

 

The 2+4 sets were only introduced as a temporary measure in 2017. I must admit, I thought the 10 we owned as a company would soldier on for a bit longer, but as has been mentioned earlier, IETs cascaded down from Paddington - Cardiff Central service has provided the replacement sets, while the tri-units replace these services. 
 

I assume they have the two power cars working to ensure if one does fail, you don’t loose too much time. 
 

The diagramed work for the 2+4 sets is very tight - we have more wiggle room with the units, which can’t always fully reach line speed (a lot of our 158/2 & 3 sets won’t get much higher than 85mph and you can forget that speed if you are fully loaded!).

 

I think I’ve answered most things from various posts from what I know. Sure I’ve missed something mind! 
 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, replaced with 5 car IETs so that means the trains will either have to have the timings slacked out or timekeeping will suffer as there's no way they can match ordinary HST performance let alone a lighter train.   I suspect at the moment the reserve in power can readily cope with minor delays such as station overtime and IETs will have difficulty matching that capability.

[Wickham Green too]

19 hours ago, Brinkly said:

... I assume they have the two power cars working to ensure if one does fail, you don’t loose too much time. ...

Is there no option to run on one power car ? .......... or is there too much of risk that when that one fails you find the other one's already a dud ?

[Rivercider]

Although I realise all good things must come to an end I too have a fondness for the HSTs.

I started on BR in 1977 quite soon after they were introduced onto the Taunton/Weston to Paddington services, so HSTs were a constant feature of my commute to work in Bristol and various other offices (including Swindon) for 30 years. The introduction of the Castle Class 2+4 sets on the Cardiff - Taunton service in 2017 means that HSTs have been performing commuter work on the Bristol - Taunton route continuously for over 45 years.   

A couple of weeks ago me and Mrs Rivercider had a short break staying at Camborne (where the trains do in fact stop Wednesdays - despite Jethro). We travelled throughout by public transport going down and back, and for our four day trips, using 12 different services over the stay. The trains were worked by 7 x HSTs, 3 x IETs, and 2 x150s  (St Ives Branch). All trains were on time, but I did notice on the HST trip home that the set had a number of apparent defects with air-con, doors, and toilets.

 

cheers

Edited March 5, 2023 by Rivercider
tidying up.

[Michael Hodgson]

They've not done badly for a design that was only developed as a short term stop gap because the APT's going to be delivered a bit later than planned.  A bit like the prefabs that were built to overcome the post-war housing shortage - and there;s still a few of those round here.

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ah, replaced with 5 car IETs so that means the trains will either have to have the timings slacked out or timekeeping will suffer as there's no way they can match ordinary HST performance let alone a lighter train.   I suspect at the moment the reserve in power can readily cope with minor delays such as station overtime and IETs will have difficulty matching that capability.

Unlikely, the short HSTs run to the same 15x Sprinter timings that applied before the Castle HSTs were a thing. An 80x will have no trouble in meeting those.

[DY444]

18 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Is there no option to run on one power car ? .......... or is there too much of risk that when that one fails you find the other one's already a dud ?

 

They very quickly stopped the practice of a PC not providing traction in the 91 + PC days on the ECML.  There was, iirc, more than one reason for that but one of them was it didn't do the traction motor commutators any good.  Maybe that's a consideration too?

[Brinkly]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ah, replaced with 5 car IETs so that means the trains will either have to have the timings slacked out or timekeeping will suffer as there's no way they can match ordinary HST performance let alone a lighter train.   I suspect at the moment the reserve in power can readily cope with minor delays such as station overtime and IETs will have difficulty matching that capability.

Morning Mike,

 

It’s an interesting one that. One of reasons for the massive timetable change in 2017 was due to the improved service timings the IETs could provide. Their braking is vastly superior to the HST sets and they accelerate (in my view as a guard) just as quick too. The internal company punctuality statistics shared with us in weekly and monthly circulars certainly suggest that the IETs with one engine down can keep (reasonably) to time. 😀 
 

One massive issue will be bike space (as 5-car IETs have virtually none) and first class accommodation with no first-class catering, or standard class catering, will cause issues for us staff onboard. I don’t think it’s a very good state of affairs that someone can buy a first class ticket from Penzance to Cardiff and can’t get even a bottle of water on what is nearly a 6hr journey. 
 

Regards,

 

Nick.
 

 

 

[Brinkly]

19 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Is there no option to run on one power car ? .......... or is there too much of risk that when that one fails you find the other one's already a dud ?

I suspect you have hit the nail on the head there. The set which are used more frequently certainly seem to perform better than the ones sat about at Laira not doing much.

 

I worked set 8 or 9 down from Bristol yesterday and it seemed to behave itself very well to Plymouth. However, it did have two coach Ds in the formation as the MK3 coaches are swapped about quite regularly and lesser, more worn, examples are ‘laid up’. 
 

Cheers,

 

Nick.

[rogerzilla]

The bike spaces are my personal bête noire, as I use trains for one-way rides.  They aren't wide enough for two bikes side by side, they aren't tall enough for touring bikes (the rear mudguard will drag on the ground), and they are usually full of luggage anyway.  I suppose we pay nothing to take bikes on the train, so they give us what we pay for.

[Rivercider]

13 hours ago, Brinkly said:

Morning Mike,

 

It’s an interesting one that. One of reasons for the massive timetable change in 2017 was due to the improved service timings the IETs could provide. Their braking is vastly superior to the HST sets and they accelerate (in my view as a guard) just as quick too. The internal company punctuality statistics shared with us in weekly and monthly circulars certainly suggest that the IETs with one engine down can keep (reasonably) to time. 😀 
 

One massive issue will be bike space (as 5-car IETs have virtually none) and first class accommodation with no first-class catering, or standard class catering, will cause issues for us staff onboard. I don’t think it’s a very good state of affairs that someone can buy a first class ticket from Penzance to Cardiff and can’t get even a bottle of water on what is nearly a 6hr journey. 
 

Regards,

 

Nick.
 

 

 

I would agree that even a basic trolley service would be appreciated on some of these services, in the Alpha Line/Wessex Trains era I think some of the 158 operated services into the West Country had trolleys.

I make occasional leisure journeys from Weston down to Exeter, and sometimes into Cornwall, my journeys sometimes last between 3 and 4 hours, so some form of refreshment would be nice. I would not of course expect a trolley on every service, but trains I use at certain times of the day are well used, often by passengers travelling a considerable distance.

Never mind bikes but on our recent Cornwall break I did notice a couple of surfboards being loaded onto IETs, which I think is not permitted...

 

 

cheers 

[rogerzilla]

Surfboards were taking up our pre-booked bike spaces the first time we went on a Class 800 to Bristol.  We had to stand in the vestibule all the way, being tutted at by other passengers.  At the starting station you could possibly get the railway staff to do something, but not in a 2 minute stop at Swindon.

[caradoc]

I will be very sad to see the HSTs disappear, they still provide an excellent passenger environment, and have been a feature of my rail travelling and working life since 1976 (when I was still at school) When Scotrail's sets go too it really will be the end of an era. 

 

One wonders how XC in particular will manage without even their few sets. The obvious solution would be for XC to take Avanti's Voyagers when they become available, both to replace the HSTS and provide additional capacity, but there seems little prospect of that happening. 

 

[Brinkly]

Morning all,

 

A bit of an unofficial update. It would seem that at least 5, probably more, of GWRs 2+4 fleet will be retained till at least December 2024. Primarily this is due to fleet shortages. It has been agreed with ASLEF fairly recently. 
 

ScotRail are planning on keeping their fleet in service until 2029. So it wouldn’t surprise me if 2024 comes and goes and a fair number down here are still in daily use. IET roll out on Penzance - Cardiff route has not gone at all to plan (CEO’s words not mine)! 
 

It will be interesting to see if XC keep their five. 
 

 

Passing back from Bristol is always nicer in here! 

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, Brinkly said:

Morning all,

 

A bit of an unofficial update. It would seem that at least 5, probably more, of GWRs 2+4 fleet will be retained till at least December 2024. Primarily this is due to fleet shortages. It has been agreed with ASLEF fairly recently. 
 

ScotRail are planning on keeping their fleet in service until 2029. So it wouldn’t surprise me if 2024 comes and goes and a fair number down here are still in daily use. IET roll out on Penzance - Cardiff route has not gone at all to plan (CEO’s words not mine)! 
 

It will be interesting to see if XC keep their five. 
 

 

Passing back from Bristol is always nicer in here! 

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

5 sets for 3 diagrams I understand, to cover maintenance backlogs in the other fleets. (Mainly the 16x classes.)

[Halvarras]

43155/70 used on the Newquay branch yesterday following the failure of 150221. Link here and scroll down a bit for pics:

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/latest-input--news--old-pictures-etc

[Brinkly]

7 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

5 sets for 3 diagrams I understand, to cover maintenance backlogs in the other fleets. (Mainly the 16x classes.)

 

There is that, but also, the IET rollout has been awful. It's embarrassing as there are only 3 diagrams currently (I think maybe 4), and they can barely cover them. God help all of us onboard with the timetable change. The 158-3 sets will go back to 158-2 to then work as four coach formations - that won't happen. It will be short-formed 2-coach trains, I suspect. 

[phil-b259]

17 hours ago, Brinkly said:

Morning all,

 

A bit of an unofficial update. It would seem that at least 5, probably more, of GWRs 2+4 fleet will be retained till at least December 2024. Primarily this is due to fleet shortages. It has been agreed with ASLEF fairly recently. 
 

ScotRail are planning on keeping their fleet in service until 2029. So it wouldn’t surprise me if 2024 comes and goes and a fair number down here are still in daily use. IET roll out on Penzance - Cardiff route has not gone at all to plan (CEO’s words not mine)! 
 

It will be interesting to see if XC keep their five. 
 

One thing to consider is that at some stage over the next 18months East Midlands Railways will take delivery of their IET variant  - and enough sets have been ordered to see the entire Meridian fleet be returned to the owning company.

 

Then there is the matter of the small Avanti Voyager fleet which is also being replaced with IETs (they are coming off the production line as we speak).

 

That will result in a sizeable fleet of Long Distance DMUs coming to to the market for re-hire and does give options for all 3 HST operators so I wouldn’t bet on the HSTs lasting till 2029 even if that’s what Scotrail are saying publicly.

[hexagon789]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

I wouldn’t bet on the HSTs lasting till 2029 even if that’s what Scotrail are saying publicly.

Officially it's 2030 or later, the fleet plan calls for all legacy diesels to be withdrawn by 2035 and the intention is the 170s will be the last legacy diesels in service.

 

Besides, the ScotRail HSTs are under a long-term contract lease. ScotRail has to pay leasing charges on them until 2030 whether they want to or not.

[franciswilliamwebb]

Oops!  Wrong thread!

Edited April 29, 2023 by franciswilliamwebb
Deleted