Strange entry on L&M Railway map

[kevinlms]

So why does this map extract say LMS & GWR at the top.

 

What would the GWR have to do with the line over Chat Moss?

 

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_Moss

 

Not that Wikipedia created the map, so it isn't a notorious error by them.

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[Moxy]

I don't know for certain, but the GWR ran into Manchester Exchange

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/manchester_exchange/

 

and to Birkenhead Woodside

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/birkenhead_woodside/

 

Perhaps there were GWR services between Manchester & Birkenhead at some point?

[peterd777]

According to my GWR route map (circa 1930s) the GWR had running rights to Manchester from Warrington.

[LMS2968]

The GWR did indeed have running powers through Warrington and along the ex-L&MR route to Manchester Exchange via Earlestown but the route was entirely LMS owned, unlike the lines from Chester to Birkenhead which were joint GWR and LMS, as were some other routes. The map is in error.

[PenrithBeacon]

The GW and LNW jointly owned the Birkenhead Railway. As part of that arrangement the GW had running rights into Manchester from Chester. The GW wanted those rights to be to London Road but the LNW didn't want more traffic over the elevated section of the MSJ&AR in Central Manchester so they agreed that the rights would run to Exchange instead. GW locos were serviced at Ordsall Lane and GW trains to Manchester were withdrawn in 1941.

The GW did have an office in Manchester but I can't remember where it was. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by PenrithBeacon

[Michael Hodgson]

Or perhaps it was the Greater Warrington Railway.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

The GWR did indeed have running powers through Warrington and along the ex-L&MR route to Manchester Exchange via Earlestown but the route was entirely LMS owned, unlike the lines from Chester to Birkenhead which were joint GWR and LMS, as were some other routes. The map is in error.

These maps generally show ownership, rather than running powers, so I agree that the map is in error.

[Edwin_m]

Quote

 

The GW and LNW jointly owned the Birkenhead Railway. As part of that arrangement the GW had running rights into Manchester from Chester. The GW wanted those rights to be to London Road but the LNW didn't want more traffic over the elevated section of the MSJ&AR in Central Manchester so they agreed that the rights would run to Exchange instead. GW locos were serviced at Ordsall Lane and GW trains to Manchester were withdrawn in 1941.

The GW did have an office in Manchester but I can't remember where it was. 

 

 

The line from Chester to Warrington was genuinely a joint operation as part of the Birkenhead Railway.  The GWR had its own warehouse at Liverpool Road, now part of the Museum of Science and Industry. 

 

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/heritage-railway/20210416/282342567660431

Edited March 9, 2023 by Edwin_m

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The GW and LNW jointly owned the Birkenhead Railway. As part of that arrangement the GW had running rights into Manchester from Chester. The GW wanted those rights to be to London Road but the LNW didn't want more traffic over the elevated section of the MSJ&AR in Central Manchester so they agreed that the rights would run to Exchange instead. GW locos were serviced at Ordsall Lane and GW trains to Manchester were withdrawn in 1941.

The GW did have an office in Manchester but I can't remember where it was. 

And Patricroft later I understood, didn't Ordsall Lane close around 1904/5 when Patricroft was expanded further - the initial build in 1884 not being big enough to close Ordsall Lane.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Or perhaps it was the Greater Warrington Railway.

Greenall Whitley Railway ?

[Alex TM]

Hi,

 

From experience, both work and pleasure, the OS really do get it wrong from time to time.  Their usual error is to 'update' a map but forget to let you know that it's only partial, thus creating a range of anachronisms (aka errors).

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[PenrithBeacon]

42 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And Patricroft later I understood, didn't Ordsall Lane close around 1904/5 when Patricroft was expanded further - the initial build in 1884 not being big enough to close Ordsall Lane.

Yes it did close as an engine shed in 1904, but the servicing facilities stayed in use well into the 1960s when it closed completely. 

I wouldn't care to say that the GW locos didn't use Patricroft after 1904 but all the photos I've seen are of them at Ordsall Lane even those taken after 1904.

[Bernard Lamb]

1 minute ago, Alex TM said:

Hi,

 

From experience, both work and pleasure, the OS really do get it wrong from time to time.  Their usual error is to 'update' a map but forget to let you know that it's only partial, thus creating a range of anachronisms (aka errors).

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Back in the day they are alleged to have included deliberate mistakes rather than errors.

Two reasons.

1/ To easily show that an illegal copy has been made. 

2/ They were as the name suggests military maps and it is not a good idea to be too accurate in case the wrong people get hold of them. I have always taken the details of railway tracks with a large pinch of salt for that very reason.

Bernard

[LMS2968]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Yes it did close as an engine shed in 1904, but the servicing facilities stayed in use well into the 1960s when it closed completely. 

I wouldn't care to say that the GW locos didn't use Patricroft after 1904 but all the photos I've seen are of them at Ordsall Lane even those taken after 1904.

The original Ordsall Lane shed was south of the site of the later station, about half way
between Oldfield Road and Ordsall Lane itself. A larger eight road shed with standard Ramsbottom hipped roofs to house 24 locos opened off Duncan Street, south and west of the station in 1874, with a
turntable ‘at the station’. Patricroft shed opened on 1st January 1885 and Ordsall Lane became a sub-shed, coded 32 in the LNWR system. Following Patricroft’s enlargement in 1901 / 02, Ordsall Lane was scheduled to close but lingered on for a few years. The 1916 OS map shows the site it occupied covered by sidings. There was though a turntable in the V between the viaduct to Exchange and Liverpool Road / MSJ&A line which was retained until the end of steam. What other loco facilities were available, I don't know, but there were pits at Exchange station itself.

Edited March 9, 2023 by LMS2968
Add map

[eastglosmog]

Checking through the maps on the NLS website, it looks as though the error is on the 1 inch to a mile series from revision in 1921-6.  The 1/2500 maps show it as owned by the LMSR only.

[Edwin_m]

4 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Back in the day they are alleged to have included deliberate mistakes rather than errors.

Two reasons.

1/ To easily show that an illegal copy has been made. 

2/ They were as the name suggests military maps and it is not a good idea to be too accurate in case the wrong people get hold of them. I have always taken the details of railway tracks with a large pinch of salt for that very reason.

Bernard

We now know that the Russians had far better maps of UK military sites than the British public was allowed to have.  

[Wickham Green too]

They were normally just blank spaces for public consumption.

[The Stationmaster]

There were actually two lots of GWR Running {pOwers into teh Manchester area both being in herited from the GWR becomong one of the joint owners, with the LNWR, of the Birkenhead Railway.

 

The Powers which were exercised were between Walton Jcn and 'Manchester' (a precise location is not noted by the RCH in the list of Running Powers but there was a GWR goods depot - so I understand, in the vicinity of Liverpool Road ex L&M station.  The GWR in fact in the late 19th century was running a nightly 'goods' train from Paddingto to Manchester via that route plus of course the passenger service to Manchester which ran until WW2.  The Summer 1938 GWR STT shows two GWR 'Express Goods' trains from Chester to Liverpool r Road running daily with the passenger service shown as 'Joint' so no dubt some trains operated by one company or the other as GWR engines were a regular sight at Manchester Exchange..

 

The route over which the GWR did not exercise its inherited Running Powers - and the one to which the LNWR objected was from Warrington to Timperley Jcn (which MacDermott notes as 'to Manchester via Timperley Jcn.   Whether the GWR actually ever tried to exercise their Powers over this route I din't know but they certainly weren't doing so by the 1930s

 

As far as South Wales coal trains passing north for the Grand Fleet during the Great War were concerned Special T raffic Notices show that they were worked by GWR 28XX to warrngton where an LNWR engine took over.

[PenrithBeacon]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Manchester,_South_Junction_and_Altrincham_Railway_RJD#/media/File%3AManchester_RJD_47.JPG

On 10/03/2023 at 16:55, The Stationmaster said:

There were actually two lots of GWR Running {pOwers into teh Manchester area both being in herited from the GWR becomong one of the joint owners, with the LNWR, of the Birkenhead Railway.

 

The Powers which were exercised were between Walton Jcn and 'Manchester' (a precise location is not noted by the RCH in the list of Running Powers but there was a GWR goods depot - so I understand, in the vicinity of Liverpool Road ex L&M station.  The GWR in fact in the late 19th century was running a nightly 'goods' train from Paddingto to Manchester via that route plus of course the passenger service to Manchester which ran until WW2.  The Summer 1938 GWR STT shows two GWR 'Express Goods' trains from Chester to Liverpool r Road running daily with the passenger service shown as 'Joint' so no dubt some trains operated by one company or the other as GWR engines were a regular sight at Manchester Exchange..

 

The route over which the GWR did not exercise its inherited Running Powers - and the one to which the LNWR objected was from Warrington to Timperley Jcn (which MacDermott notes as 'to Manchester via Timperley Jcn.   Whether the GWR actually ever tried to exercise their Powers over this route I din't know but they certainly weren't doing so by the 1930s

...

I cannot find any indication of a GW goods station in Manchester either on OS maps or the RCH junction diagram for Manchester, please see the link above. Although I haven't been able to absolutely verify from WTT that the GW (my copies, which were photographs of TNA documents, disappeared during a change of computer) had its own goods facility in Manchester it seems to be a sensible assumption that it would use Liverpool Road. 

I have explained above why the LNW wanted to limit the GW's access to Manchester to Exchange rather than London Road. It was simply a question of capacity on the MSJ&A between Castleford Junction and London Road. Then, as now, it's an issue. Then, as now, the line couldn't be quadrupled. The LNWR was spending a fortune on by-passing Manchester for freight during the late 1850 to mid 1860s period and didn't want the GWR (or MS&L for that matter) intruding.  It's all documented at TNA if you have the time.

After Ordsal Lane was closed in 1904 the site was re-purposed as a wagon repair workshop but locomotive servicing facilities were built. These comprised of a turntable, pits and watering facilities. These remained well into the 1960s and could be viewed as trains passed by. The locomotive servicing facilities at Exchange were removed during the changes caused by the Deal St to Victoria signalling/track remodeling work of 1929. There is a lovely photo of a GWR 2-4-0 on this turntable taken before WW1, but I don't know of a photo an LNWR locomotive on it.

[LMS2968]

There were originally two turntables at Exchange (see map). I'm not sure that this counts as an LNWR engine on the platform end one counts, though! In any case, it was removed to allow the platforms to be lengthened. The second one was at the 'back of Exchange' and shows up on the signallin diagrams both pre- and post-1929 resignalling. The track layout hadn't altered so it's reasonable to assume the pits are still there too.

[woodenhead]

Some images of the L&Y Irwell Street Sidings in latter days

 

 

 

[PenrithBeacon]

4 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

There were originally two turntables at Exchange (see map). I'm not sure that this counts as an LNWR engine on the platform end one counts, though! In any case, it was removed to allow the platforms to be lengthened. The second one was at the 'back of Exchange' and shows up on the signallin diagrams both pre- and post-1929 resignalling. The track layout hadn't altered so it's reasonable to assume the pits are still there too.

The turntable in the top right was part of the LYR locomotive servicing at Victoria. It too was modified, but retained in different position during the 1929 resignalling.

I would beware quoting British Railways Illustrated without verification elsewhere 😉 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/126522809

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/126522812

Top link c1915, bottom c1931

Edited March 12, 2023 by PenrithBeacon
Added links

[LMS2968]

17 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I would beware quoting British Railways Illustrated without verification elsewhere 😉 

I agree. I just don't remember doing it.

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/03/2023 at 22:33, PenrithBeacon said:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Manchester,_South_Junction_and_Altrincham_Railway_RJD#/media/File%3AManchester_RJD_47.JPG

I cannot find any indication of a GW goods station in Manchester either on OS maps or the RCH junction diagram for Manchester, please see the link above. Although I haven't been able to absolutely verify from WTT that the GW (my copies, which were photographs of TNA documents, disappeared during a change of computer) had its own goods facility in Manchester it seems to be a sensible assumption that it would use Liverpool Road. 

I have explained above why the LNW wanted to limit the GW's access to Manchester to Exchange rather than London Road. It was simply a question of capacity on the MSJ&A between Castleford Junction and London Road. Then, as now, it's an issue. Then, as now, the line couldn't be quadrupled. The LNWR was spending a fortune on by-passing Manchester for freight during the late 1850 to mid 1860s period and didn't want the GWR (or MS&L for that matter) intruding.  It's all documented at TNA if you have the time.

After Ordsal Lane was closed in 1904 the site was re-purposed as a wagon repair workshop but locomotive servicing facilities were built. These comprised of a turntable, pits and watering facilities. These remained well into the 1960s and could be viewed as trains passed by. The locomotive servicing facilities at Exchange were removed during the changes caused by the Deal St to Victoria signalling/track remodeling work of 1929. There is a lovely photo of a GWR 2-4-0 on this turntable taken before WW1, but I don't know of a photo an LNWR locomotive on it.

Liverpool Road Goods is listed in the 1938 Handbook of Stations as LMS (LNW), GW (Over LMS from Walton Jcn) and LNE(CLC).