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Not-quite-Minks


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2 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

I'm pretty sure that iron Minks were used for the conveyance of flour, in addition to explosives. Flour dust is highly combustible in the right (or wrong) situation. 

 

Ordinary iron minks were unsuitable for the conveyance of gunpowder, owing to the end ventilators, which could potentially admit sparks. You will notice that the Rapido gunpowder vans correctly lack the end ventilator. I haven't done the adding up but the total number of gunpowder vans on Britain's railways in peacetime was only a few hundred at most. Much of the traffic was to quarries and the like.

 

Flour would be conveyed in sacks, so there would have been no risk of a flour dust explosion in transit. Flour in sacks would normally be conveyed in open wagons (sheeted, of course) where they were much easier to load and unload quickly. I know Messrs. Spillers thought otherwise and bought themselves a fleet of mink-alikes which the Great western declined, with a consequent court case, the outcome of which was that the Great western bought the vans off Spillers at a fair price, the judgement being that Spillers had purchased them "in misapprehension of their rights".

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Much of the traffic was to quarries and the like.

 

Any idea what sort of consist a train would have been made up with gunpowder van(s) for quarries? I'm asking on an N.E.R. angle, but would imagine it would be similar for most companies? Would you expect to see them in a pickup goods with a barrier wagon or a dedicated train of their own?

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The caveat about these being generic is noted. I did fancy the Ferrocrete design from the current batch just to give a bit of colour to the mainly grey trains I seem to be assembling at the moment,  but was unable to verify that it was a pre WWII livery so I held back.

 

I have seen a photo dated in the late 1930’s of a Blue Circle example though so I am now once again tempted even if the livery is not on quite the right vehicle. It’s going to take me forever to find that photo again, I’m pretty sure that it was on the Warwickshire Railways website…

 

My stock is not usually weathered but if I do go for it I might have to have a crack at toning it down a bit though 🙂

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1 hour ago, thetalkinlens said:

with a barrier wagon

Sort of.

 

1 hour ago, thetalkinlens said:

or a dedicated train of their own?

Not in peacetime, no.

 

Here's what the LNER Rule Book of 1933 has to say:-

Rule 240 (10) 'Not more than five vehicles containing explosives must be conveyed by any one train at any one time. Vehicles containing explosives or highly inflammable liquids or tank wagons containing compressed liquefied gases must be marshalled as near the middle of the train as possible. Vehicles containing explosives and tank wagons containing compressed liquefied gases must not be placed on the train near to vehicles containing inflammable liquids or other traffic of an inflammable nature.'

 

Rule 240 (14) may also be of interest to modellers:-

 

'At both the sending and receiving stations vehicles containing any description of explosives or dangerous goods or traffic of an inflammable nature referred to in Clause (4) must not be placed within any of the Company’s sheds or warehouses.  On arrival at the receiving station such vehicles must be immediately separated from other vehicles.'

 

D

Edited by Darryl Tooley
Further information.
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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Flour would be conveyed in sacks, so there would have been no risk of a flour dust explosion in transit.

In an earlier life I was driving a Transit or similar with a pallet of MacDougall's finest in the back.  Coming off the M25 some wazzock let a suitcase fall off his roof rack. I braked sharply and heard a thump behind me. I got past and pulled over at a nearby layby. On opening the sliding door I couldn't see anything for the clouds of flour. Took ages to settle. I've no idea whether that would have been a combustion risk but the flour was packed when loaded.

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2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I'm pretty sure that iron Minks were used for the conveyance of flour, in addition to explosives. Flour dust is highly combustible in the right (or wrong) situation. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=banbury+custard+explosion&rlz=1C1VDKB_en-GBGB1001GB1001&oq=Custard+explosion&aqs=chrome.2.0i512j0i15i22i30j0i22i30l3j0i390l2.14113j0j15&sour

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29 minutes ago, Buhar said:

In an earlier life I was driving a Transit or similar with a pallet of MacDougall's finest in the back.  Coming off the M25 some wazzock let a suitcase fall off his roof rack. I braked sharply and heard a thump behind me. I got past and pulled over at a nearby layby. On opening the sliding door I couldn't see anything for the clouds of flour. Took ages to settle. I've no idea whether that would have been a combustion risk but the flour was packed when loaded.

 

Yours was a palletised load - how was the flour packed? In the stout paper bags as sold in supermarkets? For transport by rail back in the day, you need to think in terms of sacks each weighing a couple of hundredweight. Not flour, grain, but gives the idea:

 

88-2015-0186.jpg

 

[Embedded link to scan of DY10824, Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-2015-0186.]

 

@Fat Controller, again, that was an explosion of loose powder, not powder packed for transport. So, appealing as the idea is, it's I'm afraid a no to gunpowder vans in Bird's Custard livery.

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I was considering cancelling 2 of my preorders for the lovely Minks in NB and NE livery as there have been so many great announcements over the last while.

However I found the pictures in Tatlow's LNER wagons that seem to be extremely close matches for what Rapido call "not quite", way closer than many of my other wagons to their real versions. So I have just had to keep the orders intact !

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In the search for the more "ordinary" I also noticed that the North British and the North Eastern downgraded 13 and 6 of these wagons respectively to regular merchandise van use. Twelve of them were still running in 1947. There is a picture in Tatlow LNER volume 3 pg. 99 with small letter LNER livery. 

That's another one I would buy if Rapido added it.

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2 minutes ago, Dominion said:

In the search for the more "ordinary" I also noticed that the North British and the North Eastern downgraded 13 and 6 of these wagons respectively to regular merchandise van use. Twelve of them were still running in 1947.

 

I'm not convinced that I would call a class of 13 or 6 wagons "ordinary"!

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Does anyone have approximate dates for the CR, GNR, NBR and L&Y examples, please?

 

For example, preserved CR No.57 was built in 1922, but is this to say all the CR examples were this late in the pre-grouping? 

 

- James

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24 minutes ago, Jammy2305 said:

Does anyone have approximate dates for the CR, GNR, NBR and L&Y examples, please?

 

For example, preserved CR No.57 was built in 1922, but is this to say all the CR examples were this late in the pre-grouping? 

 

- James

 

I can't help with the CR one but there was a rash of mink-u-like gunpowder van building from c. 1904. Tatlow's LNER Wagons is most frustratingly sparing on build dates as it's chiefly interested in survival into the LNER period! The entry for the GN van in Vol. 1 is a case in point. However, from Vol. 3 we learn that the NB example was built in 1904 but is depicted as repainted in 1912 - as indicated by the 12 in the crescent moon. The L&Y van is from a lot of 12 built in 1905, according to Coates, Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons Vol. 2.

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  • 2 months later...
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PRODUCT UPDATE

Our 'Not-Quite-Mink' Great Northern Railway gunpowder van artwork has been updated (SKU 908023). After further consultation and analysis of the evidence, we have concluded that the caption for the reference photo was incorrect and as such we have altered the design to have black lettering with red uprights and solebars (rather than red lettering and black ironwork).

Here is a render of the updated livery.

GN-GPV-June.jpg.fe6db0dd1e4904292414434c1bd02b3a.jpg

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  • 4 months later...
On 20/03/2023 at 18:49, Jammy2305 said:

Does anyone have approximate dates for the CR, GNR, NBR and L&Y examples, please?

 

For example, preserved CR No.57 was built in 1922, but is this to say all the CR examples were this late in the pre-grouping? 

 

- James

Apologies for such a late reply, I only came upon your questions today.

The Rapido CR Gunpowder Van is based on the very similar Caley Diagram 78 Gunpowder Van. They were built in three batches, first twelve were authorised in July 1904 and a further twelve in the next half year. The final batch of 25 were ordered in  May 1922 from Hurst Nelson, the preserved, No.57,  in the SRPS Collection came from this batch.

In 1906 Van Numbers 1 & 2 were allocated to Steps Road, 3-10 Harburn, 11-33 Stevenston and 34 & 35 Cambuslang.

All the above information and much more about Caley Wagons can be found in Caledonian Wagons and NPCS by Mike Williams available from the Caledonian Railway Association.

 

Brian.

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58 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

I'm assuming that these not-quite-mink have arrived now? 


See posts above Corbs one 😉

 

4 hours ago, J-Mo Arts said:

Couldn't resist weathering mine up in time for today... 

IMG_20231105_175711.jpg?ex=655a4cc3&is=6

Now to wait for Met 1 to pull it into the tunnels below London! 

 

 

On 04/11/2023 at 13:22, PaulRhB said:

 First pics and they blow up rather well 👍

 

IMG_0795.jpeg.b983f3f4a605bb63c527b3b87d7b1a44.jpeg
 

Well done the Crazy gang 😁

 

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