LTSR Electrification and District Ealing-Southend Stock?

[Ernest Leung]

Hello,

I am planning at the moment to build a layout that represents two or three pre-war electrification schemes that never happened. I need now of course to decide which schemes to pursue, and rather than the usual ones (NER York-Newcastle, 1919 etc) I am looking at the lesser known ones, for example the LBSCR's plans to raise its voltage to 11kv AC (from 6.6kv) just before grouping for the planned electrification of the Brighton mainline, which would have coincided with the Midland's plans for mainline electrification on a similar standard. There is also the GWR scheme for 3kv DC electrification discussed elsewhere on this forum. In fact the list goes on and on.



I am looking at a probable scheme that doesn't seem to have been described at any length in any literature I've read. I've noticed that the District Railway, which used to have direct Ealing-Southend services until 1939, came to use their box cab locomotives to haul two rakes of coaches built in 1910 that resembled LNWR North London emus of the era, probably with open saloon arrangements and hand-pulled sliding doors. The contours of the coaches, which were bellowed, suggest that they were not designed by the same people responsible for the District's US-styled slab-sided coaches. 

Then I found this website which suggests that these coaches had enormous end windows, which, if we recall what was planned for the Quint Art sets on the LNER, suggests that they were meant to be refitted as EMUs or at least push-pull stock used on an electrified route.



The problems are - 1. Were there any plans to turn these coaches into EMUs? What else do we know about these coaches? 2. What were the plans to electrify the LTSR? Was it to have been a DC line, allowing total through-running with the District, or was it going to be an AC line to be unified with the rest of the Midland AC system, which might eventually have reached London had WWI not intervened.

I would appreciate any hints or clues to things that might lead to answers. Thanks in advance!

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Mike Horne's London's District Railway says that the earliest Ealing to Southend trains, in 1909 used carriages provided by the LT&SR. In 1911, the District Railway ordered two sets of carriages from Birmingham RCW to the design of Robert Whitelegg, the LT&SR carriage and wagon superintendant. They were vestibuled opens with gangways between carriages. There is no suggestion that they were ever intended to become EMUs.

[33C]

There are photo's of the LTS, pre-war, and during the war, of the overhead line masts already in place, and, as we know, the war stopped the 1932 electrification of the route.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, 33C said:

There are photo's of the LTS, pre-war, and during the war, of the overhead line masts already in place, and, as we know, the war stopped the 1932 electrification of the route.

Seven years then stopped? Sounds like it must have been stopped earlier as surely the LMS could have got a lot done in 7 years.

 

Perhaps the masts went up around the reconstruction of Upminster station? Which would make sense.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London,_Tilbury_and_Southend_line#The_1929_LMS_plan

[33C]

Yes, your probably right. The overhead gantries were up around Fenchurch Street before the war but not wired. Maybe they were overtaken by other "modernisation" events?

[kevinlms]

59 minutes ago, 33C said:

Yes, your probably right. The overhead gantries were up around Fenchurch Street before the war but not wired. Maybe they were overtaken by other "modernisation" events?

As it happened, it's probably just as well it was delayed, as they ended up with the technologically superior 25KV AC system.

Edited April 15, 2023 by kevinlms
Wrong word

[31A]

Surely any gantries at Fenchurch Street would have been part of the LNER Liverpool Street - Shenfield 1500v DC scheme, which included Fenchurch St. - Stratford via Bow Jn. and Gas Factory Jn., which was completed after WW2 but in the end never carried a regular passenger service.  I believe the bay platforms which were provided for it at Stratford were replaced by the Central Line extension through Stratford.

[Nile]

The Midland had committed# to electrifying the LTSR when they took it over in 1912. The Great War, Government control and then grouping put an end to that.

 

# I don't know if that was actually in the authorizing act.

edit:

Yes it was in the 1912 act - The Midland shall prepare a scheme for electrical working between Fenchurch st. and Southend and apply to parliament for any additional powers by 1914, and carry out the scheme within 7 years of obtaining those powers.

The LTSR got powers to electrify its whole system in its 1902 act, using them to electrify two tracks from Bow to Barking.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Nile
more info

[Wickham Green too]

10 hours ago, Ernest Leung said:

... The contours of the coaches, which were bellowed, suggest that they were not designed by the same people responsible for the District's US-styled slab-sided coaches. ...

A number of those coaches went to the Military, at some stage, and survived rather later than you'd think ...... might be worth trying to track down picture - though I wouldn't know where to start, I'm afraid !

[Tom Burnham]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

A number of those coaches went to the Military, at some stage, and survived rather later than you'd think ...... might be worth trying to track down picture - though I wouldn't know where to start, I'm afraid !

Here's a photo on the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire when it was under military operation -

 

[Engineer]

When the prospect of LTSR coach 3D prints came up some while ago, I began some research, don't think I've found everything, still more to do.  The stock had a couple of features that require care in modelling and interpretation.  

 

I can't claim to have looked up any of the Shropshire/Montgomeryshire books however there are more images to mention from the online railway photograph archives showing the remaining (re-panelled, gangways removed) ex-LTSR coaches on the Shropshire/Montgomeryshire line.  Have now managed to find my notes, including:

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p30530247/hc5f1a7d9#hc5f1a7d9
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p30530247/hc5f1a82b#hc5f1a82b

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/Miscellaneous/Private-and-light-railways/i-RXbfH8m/A

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/Miscellaneous/Private-and-light-railways/i-dcbDwt8/A
https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/Miscellaneous/Private-and-light-railways/i-WDjFmBD/A

 

https://flic.kr/p/Ag7yfc

https://flic.kr/p/zoUCL8

https://flic.kr/p/AkNsCX

https://flic.kr/p/A5ofQF

https://flic.kr/p/F6JEEo

 

https://colourrail.co.uk/api/image/medium/7505d57b-e2aa-4831-a4a3-d1ee58da001a

https://colourrail.co.uk/api/image/medium/0646b7f0-9164-4275-be6a-083284589a90

https://colourrail.co.uk/api/image/medium/5f9a5bc6-5276-4a1f-b0de-8a7983f16200

 

There is a film sequence showing one coach used in a closing special trip, within first minute.
https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-camwell-personal-film-no-129-shropshire-and-montgomeryshire-railway-1962-online

For completeness, special trip notes:  
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/50s/580921sl.html
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/50s/510423ic.html
https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/600320sl.html

 

Interesting article on the original stock:
The Locomotive Magazine and Railway Carriage and Wagon Review, January 18th 1912

 

Added reference from Colonel Stephens web pages, mentioning use of ex-LTSR stock on the military railway (page 5)

https://colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/shropshire ww1/shropshire and montgomeryshire topics.html

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Engineer
Information omitted in original post

[Nearholmer]

On 15/04/2023 at 16:28, Wickham Green too said:

might be worth trying to track down picture - though I wouldn't know where to start,

A book called something like ‘The Shropshire & Montgomery Railway under military control’ has lot of photos of them. I’m not at home, but when I am I will see if it adds to this discussion.

[Ernest Leung]

Gentlemen, thanks a lot for all the answers!

[Nearholmer]

The S&M book doesn’t really add anything to the tale as it relates to this thread, although it does contain, as I’d remembered, a lot of photos of the coaches.

 

If I’ve understood things correctly, there were originally two eight-car sets, which very briefly became excursion sets when the service was withdrawn s few days after the war was declared in 1939. Of these, I think one full set passed into military use, first on the Melbourne Military Railway, then the various coaches going elsewhere. What happened to the other set, I don’t know.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Nearholmer

[PhilJ W]

On 15/04/2023 at 11:58, 33C said:

There are photo's of the LTS, pre-war, and during the war, of the overhead line masts already in place, and, as we know, the war stopped the 1932 electrification of the route.

 

On 15/04/2023 at 13:41, kevinlms said:

Seven years then stopped? Sounds like it must have been stopped earlier as surely the LMS could have got a lot done in 7 years.

 

Perhaps the masts went up around the reconstruction of Upminster station? Which would make sense.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London,_Tilbury_and_Southend_line#The_1929_LMS_plan

The LMS quadrupled the LT&S line between Barking and Upminster in 1932 and the new lines were operated by the then Metropolitan District Railway (which became the District line of the newly created London Transport within a year). The new lines were electrified on the London four rail system.

[caradoc]

On 15/04/2023 at 15:17, 31A said:

I believe the bay platforms which were provided for it at Stratford were replaced by the Central Line extension through Stratford.

 

Agree re the OLE, but I think the bay platforms were provided as well as the Central Line through platforms, and were used for a while by the Docklands Light Railway?

 

[31A]

1 minute ago, caradoc said:

 

Agree re the OLE, but I think the bay platforms were provided as well as the Central Line through platforms, and were used for a while by the Docklands Light Railway?

 

 

Ooops; trying to remember now why I wrote that back in April but yes, it doesn't seem to have come out right - you are quite right!