Reinvigorating model shops: AI suggestions.

[Phil Parker]

6 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

People will find ways to fill their time. If that's using a device 18 hours a day and they enjoy it then ultimately that's what they enjoy.

 

You might find the short story "The machine stops" interesting - it describes the world you dream of perfectly - https://manybooks.net/titles/forstereother07machine_stops.html

 

6 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

The fact that have threads like this seem a staple of model railway discussion, or that there is lots of discussion over how to re-invigorate high streets indicates things aren't especially rosy for physical shops.

 

Or that we just like talking. These threads always include someone stating that model shops are closing - yet the numbers tell a different story.

[AY Mod]

4 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

"The machine stops

 

I was surprised we were allowed such a seditious* text in Catholic school lessons. There again, Mr. Whitby was just a rebel.

 

* It isn't but the school was like that.

[jjb1970]

2 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

You might find the short story "Tha machine stops" interesting - it describes the world you dream of perfectly - https://manybooks.net/titles/forstereother07machine_stops.html

 

 

Where did I suggest I dreamt of people living in cells being afraid of physical interaction? I said if people enjoy using their devices 18 hours a day (which is a crazy exaggeration for all but a small minority) then ultimately that's what they enjoy. People still interact socially, leave the home, mix with friends. If anything I think re-orientating city centres to focus on dining out, cafes, entertainment, gyms etc is probably better to encourage people to mix with each other and enjoy time out.

[Covkid]

I think you jjb1970 are generalising. Not everyone wants to buy online. I certainly don't. I like to jump in my car for a 30 minute drive to my LHS, have a chat, a quick shuftie at the second hand pile, buy new bits and pieces, maybe the odd loco and stock. I can also pick up stuff ordered through them, as well as seek advice etc etc.  Putting the world to rights depends if there are others in the shop. 

 

I guess i am lucky that i still have a great LHS just 30 mins away, and maybe if i lived in another country things would be very different.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Covkid

[Philou]

On 05/05/2023 at 22:14, Covkid said:

msybe if i lived in another country things would be very different.

 

I wish! The nearest big stockist of railway material that would be of use to me ie: 00 gauge stuff, is a 160km (100 miles - or 2 hours) journey each way! Unfortunately, not only is it far, far away in another universe, they haven't anything outside of Peco and Heljan products and compared to UK prices quite a bit more expensive.

 

I don't have much option but to let my fingers do the walking, though I tend to do a lot by 'phone to the UK to Lord and Butler in my case. I do have to take a chance though that I don't take a hit VAT-wise - I think I'm winning at the moment.

 

Just to pick up what @tomparryharry said at the beginning regarding Lord and Butler, they did indeed start in one very small unit in what used to be the old sewage pumping station in Cardiff, selling mainly S/hand and then moved onto selling new items, outgrew the unit and expanded into an adjoining unit. It was so crowded with stock it was wonderful! They outgrew that too and had to move across the road (car park actually) into a larger unit.

 

I went there this February and it was packed to the gunnels again! BUT, it has taken them over 20 years to get there and it's only been achieved by customer care and satisfaction and knowing what the customer is likely to want even if it's only a tin of paint or a yard of track - not only did I get a cup of tea there, but my lunch as well. (The lunch was an exception as he is my brother after all! :)) ) Chats come free!

 

Shameless plug over,

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[BachelorBoy]

On 05/05/2023 at 22:18, Phil Parker said:

 

You might find the short story "The machine stops" interesting - it describes the world you dream of perfectly - https://manybooks.net/titles/forstereother07machine_stops.html

 

 

Or that we just like talking. These threads always include someone stating that model shops are closing - yet the numbers tell a different story.

What are the numbers, please?

 

Did I miss them earlier in the thread?

 

BB

 

[fezza]

I still love visiting real model shops, but...

 

The problem I find is that very few shops today stock comprehensive ranges. That's partly due to batch production, but it is often the case that I go into fairly large midland stores and find newly released N gauge material is not available - often because it has not been ordered. So what can I do other than go online? 

 

The other issue is that stores stocking second hand budget items seem few and far between. That was once the great pleasure of visiting a store - finding an unusual item or something cheap and broken that you could repair. If it is all put on eBay, why go to a store?

 

Stores also need to open when it is convenient for customers.  I have some time on my hands tomorrow  (something that is rare for a working professional with a family these day), but can I find a store open locally on bank holiday? Many also close early on Saturday, the one day many people have free! Stores need to be aware of when customers are likely to be available to buy. They are in the leisure industry and opening times need to reflect this.

[Guest]

I’ve been out of the hobby for a fair while. In the North East, there’s a small family-run shop in Gateshead and a couple others slightly further afield. None are easy to get to without public transport and opening hours in some aren’t entirely conducive to visits when working 8-6 on weekdays. I don’t feel that any are particularly inclusive.

 

Fenwick department store in Newcastle city centre has a decent range of Hornby products, including the typical OO loose track tray and a fairly random selection of locomotives, accessories and rolling stock, as well as Airfix and kits from other manufacturers. They used to have a small Thomas model railway in a display case I think too. It used to sell Bachmann too, but no longer. They reorganised the toy section a year or two back and the Hornby section survived, so it must be worth their while. I often pop up when in the store and at weekends there are usually others there too - often young children with their parents. This makes me wonder whether they’re missing an opportunity to create more of a buzz with demonstrations, hands-on activities etc to bring in families (who may spend elsewhere in the store too). As others have said, the city centre environment is heading more towards experiential retail. Lego have been good at this - they have their life-sized models in stores (including Fenwicks) and they have their brick pits but I think the model rail industry has tended to be a bit inward-looking and unwelcoming to newbies. This doesn’t bode so well for the future.

 

I do wonder whether, in a couple of years, Bluetooth and device-control will have developed sufficiently to allow transportable, interactive, sealed layouts to be created for shops, shopping centres etc. Possibly with pop-up model shops accompanying them. Taking the hobby to the market seems like a good way of bringing new modellers in. I’m not convinced that model railway exhibitions do that, as those who go along to those are usually already interested. I’ve not been to an exhibition in ages as I’ve never felt particularly welcome at local exhibitions and the national ones are mostly too far away. I suspect there are a significant number of lapsed modellers waiting for their interest to be reawakened and I don’t think that’s being tapped into. I rather miss Rail Riders World and Hamburg is a bit too far away.

[Compound2632]

On 07/05/2023 at 21:31, fezza said:

Stores also need to open when it is convenient for customers.  I have some time on my hands tomorrow  (something that is rare for a working professional with a family these day), but can I find a store open locally on bank holiday? Many also close early on Saturday, the one day many people have free! Stores need to be aware of when customers are likely to be available to buy. They are in the leisure industry and opening times need to reflect this.

 

But consider, the smaller shops are not in a position to employ evening / weekend staff - it would kill their profit margin. If run by the owner, with maybe a couple of other staff he's known for years, they want their leisure time too and not to be working unsociable hours. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But consider, the smaller shops are not in a position to employ evening / weekend staff - it would kill their profit margin. If run by the owner, with maybe a couple of other staff he's known for years, they want their leisure time too and not to be working unsociable hours. 

I do think this is a very difficult conflict for these stores; one that is shared by many niche retail sectors. Having an Internet shopfront helps, especially if that means the bricks & mortar shop is simply a second channel for sales while dealing with online orders.

They cannot reasonably complain at lack of in-person custom though if they don’t open at times that suit their customers. If they’re only open during weekdays and a short time on a Saturday, that leaves very opportunity for those with full time jobs and young families (for whom Saturdays can be taken up with taxi services to clubs/sport). 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Guest

[Type 2]

4 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

I do think this is a very difficult conflict for these stores; one that is shared by many niche retail sectors. Having an Internet shopfront helps, especially if that means the bricks & mortar shop is simply a second channel for sales while dealing with online orders.

They cannot reasonably complain at lack of in-person custom though if they don’t open at times that suit their customers. If they’re only open during weekdays and a short time on a Saturday, that leaves very opportunity for those with full time jobs and young families (for whom Saturdays can be taken up with taxi services to clubs/sport). 

The people who run the shops also work full time (and probably many more hours away from the store), they also have to fit in activities for families etc etc

 

There a plenty of things local shop can do to increase custom, but that requires time, money, and space which are all often in very short supply.

 

The shops are there for us to use, if we need to make a special trip, then do it.  Make that special trip, buy some items and support your local model shop

[Type 2]

9 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

I’ve been out of the hobby for a fair while. In the North East, there’s a small family-run shop in Gateshead and a couple others slightly further afield. None are easy to get to without public transport and opening hours in some aren’t entirely conducive to visits when working 8-6 on weekdays. I don’t feel that any are particularly inclusive.

 

In what way do you feel they aren't inclusive?  Inclusive in what way?

 

9 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

I’ve not been to an exhibition in ages as I’ve never felt particularly welcome at local exhibitions and the national ones are mostly too far away. I suspect there are a significant number of lapsed modellers waiting for their interest to be reawakened and I don’t think that’s being tapped into. I rather miss Rail Riders World and Hamburg is a bit too far away.

What makes you feel unwelcome?

[Phil Parker]

9 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

I’ve been out of the hobby for a fair while. In the North East, there’s a small family-run shop in Gateshead and a couple others slightly further afield. None are easy to get to without public transport and opening hours in some aren’t entirely conducive to visits when working 8-6 on weekdays. I don’t feel that any are particularly inclusive.

 

This confused me a bit - do you mean "None are easy to get to by public transport"? The normal complaint is that there is no parking!

 

9 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

I’ve not been to an exhibition in ages as I’ve never felt particularly welcome at local exhibitions and the national ones are mostly too far away.

 

And two mentions of not feeling welcome at places. If you are happy to, it would be interesting to know why you feel excluded from both shops and hows, aside from the opening hours already mentioned. If you are not alone, fixing this might be more useful for both.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Type 2 said:

In what way do you feel they aren't inclusive?  Inclusive in what way?

 

What makes you feel unwelcome?

 

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

This confused me a bit - do you mean "None are easy to get to by public transport"? The normal complaint is that there is no parking!

 

 

And two mentions of not feeling welcome at places. If you are happy to, it would be interesting to know why you feel excluded from both shops and hows, aside from the opening hours already mentioned. If you are not alone, fixing this might be more useful for both.

Apologies yes I got distracted while writing so it made less sense. 
Other than Fenwicks, with its limited range, all local shops I know of are out of town and have limited opening hours (9-4 Mon-Sat in one case). None are open Sunday. Two are completely closed on upcoming weekends, presumably to attend shows. So without a car, as I am right now, it takes at least two buses to get to any of them. That combination of location and opening hours excludes a significant number of potential customers. 

If you do manage to get there, as others have said, you’re usually ignored while they talk to their mates.  Monk Bar Models in York is about the only one I know where there’s a sense that you’ll be treated as a customer expects. I just feel that many model shops are stuck in the past and are focused on serving a dwindling market. I do appreciate that many are struggling but I don’t think many shops help themselves or consider how to change to bring in the new customers they need to help them to survive. 
 

Similarly, many exhibitions don’t seem to have cottoned on to how to attract a wider audience and how to market themselves. Another thread on this forum about exhibitions clearly demonstrated some of these attitudes when someone dared to make some constructive criticism. 

Personally, I just feel like the whole industry needs to come together, look outward, do some research into the shape of their existing and potential markets and adapt their ways before it’s too late. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Guest

[Phil Parker]

38 minutes ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

 

Apologies yes I got distracted while writing so it made less sense. 
Other than Fenwicks, with its limited range, all local shops I know of are out of town and have limited opening hours (9-4 Mon-Sat in one case). None are open Sunday. Two are completely closed on upcoming weekends, presumably to attend shows. So without a car, as I am right now, it takes at least two buses to get to any of them. That combination of location and opening hours excludes a significant number of potential customers. 

If you do manage to get there, as others have said, you’re usually ignored while they talk to their mates.  Monk Bar Models in York is about the only one I know where there’s a sense that you’ll be treated as a customer expects. I just feel that many model shops are stuck in the past and are focused on serving a dwindling market. I do appreciate that many are struggling but I don’t think many shops help themselves or consider how to change to bring in the new customers they need to help them to survive. 
 

Similarly, many exhibitions don’t seem to have cottoned on to how to attract a wider audience and how to market themselves. Another thread on this forum about exhibitions clearly demonstrated some of these attitudes when someone dared to make some constructive criticism. 

Personally, I just feel like the whole industry needs to come together, look outward, do some research into the shape of their existing and potential markets and adapt their ways before it’s too late. 

 

As someone who loves travelling by public transport, I have to acknowledge that the majority of customers to both shops and shows arrive by car. Look at the Warley threads where the suggestion of arriving by train to avoid the parking fee is howled down. For anyone living outside a city, sadly, a car is essential. And because of this, free parking matters more than a bus stop. Location needs to be cheap, which probably means out of town, not on the high street.

 

Others have pointed out that longer opening hours are nice, but an added overhead.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how any of this can be fixed. Maybe it can't.

[Guest]

I’m not sure there’s a need for longer opening hours, maybe just varied hours that allow those who can’t get there on weekdays to visit.

 

I guess, to a certain extent, the target clientele is (stereotyping somewhat!) “male, pale and stale’ and when you only listen to existing visitors and customers you don’t find out what is stopping others from visiting.  This is why a bit of industry market research would be helpful to see where there’re untapped markets. Car ownership is now falling in many demographics (often those with money but who just have other priorities). Looking at the 2021 census, even in large semi-rural areas of Yorkshire and the North East 20-30% of households don’t have access to cars https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/housing/number-of-cars-or-vans/number-of-cars-3a/no-cars-or-vans-in-household. Newcastle city centre is probably thriving more than the MetroCentre which has ample free parking but has a significant number of empty units. 

 

An example of something different would be the Chester cathedral model rail exhibitions which I don’t think struggled with attendance, given they’ve been repeated. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Guest

[fezza]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But consider, the smaller shops are not in a position to employ evening / weekend staff - it would kill their profit margin. If run by the owner, with maybe a couple of other staff he's known for years, they want their leisure time too and not to be working unsociable hours. 

If you want to run a genuinely successful small shop or business you don't get leisure time.  Been there, done that!

 

You only really get significant time off when you are well established and can afford to delegate or employ extra staff. That sounds harsh, but it is true for most of the successful small business people I know.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Type 2 said:

The shops are there for us to use, if we need to make a special trip, then do it.  Make that special trip, buy some items and support your local model shop

My point is though that for many it’s nigh on impossible to visit. As I said earlier, two local shops will be closed over coming weekends and are open 9-5 on weekdays. That rules out a visit for me &   anyone else working 9-5 (and the rest - I leave home at 0700 and get home at 1900). At the weekend I usually only have access to my car on a Sunday and I know many friends who are busy taking kids to sports activities on Saturdays.
 

Varying hours to start late and finish late just one day per week would be an obvious option for some shops - no additional hours required, so no extra cost. Won’t suit those who have their own family or care commitments but I’m sure some could. 

[Phil Parker]

10 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

My point is though that for many it’s nigh on impossible to visit. As I said earlier, two local shops will be closed over coming weekends and are open 9-5 on weekdays. That rules out a visit for me &   anyone else working 9-5 (and the rest - I leave home at 0700 and get home at 1900). At the weekend I usually only have access to my car on a Sunday and I know many friends who are busy taking kids to sports activities on Saturdays.
 

Varying hours to start late and finish late just one day per week would be an obvious option for some shops - no additional hours required, so no extra cost. Won’t suit those who have their own family or care commitments but I’m sure some could. 

 

Ignore the two shops closed while they are at a show - that's likely a one-off each year, although it highlights a problem with lack fo staff. The bigger problem, for you,  is that model shops have the same hours as most other high-street shops. On Saturdays, all parents are being taxi's for their offspring, so (apparently) no-one goes shopping.

 

What you are asking for is a very late night opening (post 20:00 to allow you to get home, eat and go back out) and Sundays. For most shops that means the owners working the whole weekend and not being able to be kids taxi, or have a Sunday lunch. If they had more staff (overhead up), this wouldn't be a problem as a rota could share the load. Lots simply don't however, so they have made a decision that is the least worst option. Now, if they have a website, this can take some of the load. However, I know a couple of reasonably prominent shops that are little more than one-man bands. Sorry, but that's the reality for a lot of small businesses.

 

12 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

I guess, to a certain extent, the target clientele is (stereotyping somewhat!) “male, pale and stale’ and when you only listen to existing visitors and customers you don’t find out what is stopping others from visiting.  This is why a bit of industry market research would be helpful to see where there’re untapped markets. Car ownership is now falling in many demographics (often those with money but who just have other priorities). Looking at the 2021 census, even in large semi-rural areas of Yorkshire and the North East 20-30% of households don’t have access to cars

 

Car ownership is falling fastest among the young, who are priced out by the costs, and often don't see the need in an urban environment - they have Uber. They aren't the target market for most small model shops either. This is a hobby you tend to get serious about later in life, by which time you probably have a car for kids taxi duties. Even then your numbers suggest 70-80% do have access to a car. That's the market to cater for first, not the 20-30% who might not have a car because they spend their money on things like food and rent. Many of them would likely prefer to be mobile more than they want a model railway.

 

12 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

An example of something different would be the Chester cathedral model rail exhibitions which I don’t think struggled with attendance, given they’ve been repeated.

 

That's as A-typical a show as you can get. One monster layout built and exhibited by a wealthy force of nature (Pete's great, not many would have his commitment to drive such a project through) in a venue that they aren't paying for. The show is an attraction running over several weeks, and would probably still happen if hardly anyone turned up.

 

Sorry if this seems to disagree with you - but the problem is complex.

[MyRule1]

Only just found this topic. Interesting that it has actually been mainly o/t since about the fifth post. AI is dependant on its learning process / algorithms and feedback from users. Where the money is put into that learning process the results are outstanding medical research being one such area. Good ustomer relations do work but to be good they need to go through the entire feedback cycle. Give and answer, was the customer happy with the answer and did it solve thier issue. If so use that answer to similar queries other mark it appropriately. After a certain number of iterations it will get if right.

 

I doubt if many resources have invested in the orignal question in this thread. A good AI system will have read this thread and taken out what it sees as successul ideas and incorporate then into a revised reply.

 

As a number of "box shifters" and other model railway supplies now seem to have live chat boxes, which I guess are AI driven perhaps people could give good and bad experiences.

 

Last thought when @Phil Parker and  @AY Mod go on holiday could they be replaced by AI to see what happens?

 

[Type 2]

5 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

 

 

Last thought when @Phil Parker and  @AY Mod go on holiday could they be replaced by AI to see what happens?

 

[melmoth]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

What you are asking for is a very late night opening (post 20:00 to allow you to get home, eat and go back out) and Sundays. For most shops that means the owners working the whole weekend and not being able to be kids taxi, or have a Sunday lunch. If they had more staff (overhead up), this wouldn't be a problem as a rota could share the load. Lots simply don't however, so they have made a decision that is the least worst option. Now, if they have a website, this can take some of the load. However, I know a couple of reasonably prominent shops that are little more than one-man bands. Sorry, but that's the reality for a lot of small businesses.

 

 

Indeed (my bold above). As both the proprietor of a small retail business and the part-owner of a school age child, a lot of thought has gone into how all my commitments have to fit together. Our current opening times are attached below. At first glance, opening for only around 30 hours a week might not seem a lot, but (for reasons I won't bore you with) it takes an hour to get the shop ready to open each morning, and I also have to allow an hour between about 3 and 4 to get our online sales processed and posted out.  Lunch and 'coffee breaks' happen at the till. Paperwork and anything else gets dealt with in the evening. Were it not for the fact that my flat is only 200 yards from my shop and that there's an excellent pub between the two, any possibility of a social life would be a vain and foolish hope. Still, it's better than working for somebody else.

 

 

[Type 2]

6 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

Indeed (my bold above). As both the proprietor of a small retail business and the part-owner of a school age child, a lot of thought has gone into how all my commitments have to fit together. Our current opening times are attached below. At first glance, opening for only around 30 hours a week might not seem a lot, but (for reasons I won't bore you with) it takes an hour to get the shop ready to open each morning, and I also have to allow an hour between about 3 and 4 to get our online sales processed and posted out.  Lunch and 'coffee breaks' happen at the till. Paperwork and anything else gets dealt with in the evening. Were it not for the fact that my flat is only 200 yards from my shop and that there's an excellent pub between the two, any possibility of a social life would be a vain and foolish hope. Still, it's better than working for somebody else.

 

 

My friend runs a small repair and second hand shop, his hours are 9.30 to 5.30 mon - fri and 9 to 12 on a sat.  He is in the shop from 8 and doesn't leave until well after 6 most days.  He doesn't make enough to cover employing someone else, so he finds has to work a lot of evenings/sat nights and sundays to keep on top of everything.

 

Thats a thing that lot of people don't realise about running a small shop, (or being self employed in general) the hours you have to put in would make most people weep.  Even the most miserable of shop owners deserve a life outside of work.

 

 

 

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I think there is merit in smaller shops having at least one late-night weekday opening day.

When I worked in libraries, we ensured that all the libraries throughout our patch had at least one late-night weekday opening day. The 10am - 3pm opening times, mentioned above, surely exclude a lot of potential customers.

[Guest]

Closure of the local shops for exhibitions has happened several times already this year. It’s not a one-off. I’ve looked a couple of times recently wanting to go but have been foiled on the days I was able to. 
 

As I say, I’m not suggesting additional hours for shops. All I’m suggesting is that an experiment of opening on slightly different hours on one day a week (even one day/month), and advertising it in the modelling press, might just encourage new customers and might bring a higher return for those later hours than, say 0900-1100. If not then they can go back to normal hours.
 

There are lots of comments about modellers using the internet rather than bricks and mortar stores. The businesses I use in person, including small businesses, either have opening times that make it possible alongside a busy 9-5 job (e.g. late opening/reliable weekend opening) or are located centrally so that I and many others can visit. People DO want to use small businesses, but it’s very hard to do so when they’re not open at times they are able to visit.