Carriage door intelligence tests

[Hal Nail]

I had quite a long chat with a train despatcher about this at the weekend and he demonstrated the safety catch on a mk1, so even if it isn't fully shut, it doesn't swing right open. 

 

Whereupon as the same train left a passenger on a platform bench noticed a door slightly open and shoved it shut.

 

As she did so, I couldn't obviously see the door was open 2 or 3 carriages away - admittedly it happened fast and I wasn't specifically checking - but it reinforced that it would be pretty near impossible to ensure every door handle on the gwr type stock is always horizontal.

[rodent279]

On 30/04/2023 at 14:27, Reorte said:

Always throws me a bit these days encountering shorter than usual numbers - Buxton ones seem to be one digit less than almost everywhere else for some reason.

There's a joke in there somewhere.....

[Phil Bullock]

11 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

Coming back to the original thread. An internal meeting has identified a solution to the issue with the GW coaches with the snap locks (if I can call them that) Please do not expect them back in service though for some time. With only 2 or 3 trains at most its easier to use Mk1 sets they need far less work to maintain and it allows the other sets time for work on them. 

 

Thats good to hear. It would be a tragedy to lose them after all the hard work of restoration 

[ejstubbs]

On 30/04/2023 at 18:37, 009 micro modeller said:

Wasn’t there a company that did them a few years ago - old rotary dial on the outside but with ‘modern’ internal electronics?

 

Some old rotary dial phones that you find in antique shops have already been converted to tone dialling. I think there's a distinct limit to the appeal of an old bakelite phone as just a decorative item in its own right. (The one that we had when I was a kid was downright ugly IMO - though it did have the wee pull-out drawer where you could write down "important" numbers.)

[uax6]

On 03/05/2023 at 16:06, ejstubbs said:

 

Some old rotary dial phones that you find in antique shops have already been converted to tone dialling. I think there's a distinct limit to the appeal of an old bakelite phone as just a decorative item in its own right. (The one that we had when I was a kid was downright ugly IMO - though it did have the wee pull-out drawer where you could write down "important" numbers.)

 

And have you used them on a real call these days? Its like the user has their head in a bucket , while standing outside the room the phone is in.

Interestingly, when on short lines with a proper 50V feed on them (from a real Strowger exchange) they aren't too bad. I have junction working to the outside line, which gets around this issue*. (And fitting modern transmitters and receivers into the handset doesn't help either, the induction coils aren't set up for them).

 

* well sort of, they are still not like the later 700's for sound quality. Interestingly modern engineers don't seem to think much of the 700 series, but I find them just as usable as the modern ones..

 

Andy G

[ejstubbs]

7 hours ago, uax6 said:

And have you used them on a real call these days? Its like the user has their head in a bucket , while standing outside the room the phone is in.

 

I've never tried to use one, only seen them for sale.  Is the sound quality worse than when they were the latest thing in telephonic wizardry?  I don't recall our old bakelite phone being exactly hi-fi...

[Boris]

On 03/05/2023 at 07:01, Hal Nail said:

As she did so, I couldn't obviously see the door was open 2 or 3 carriages away - admittedly it happened fast and I wasn't specifically checking - but it reinforced that it would be pretty near impossible to ensure every door handle on the gwr type stock is always horizontal.

I suspect the solution is going to look like mainline mk1 style secondary door bolts and also possibly stewards in every coach whose job it is to specifically open and close doors at every station as I believe a number of operators who use mk1s do/have done.

[Blandford1969]

On 03/05/2023 at 08:16, Phil Bullock said:

 

Thats good to hear. It would be a tragedy to lose them after all the hard work of restoration 

Just don't expect a full solution quickly. Replacement locks are £340 each (from memory) that's a lot of money to change most of the coaches. 

[Phil Bullock]

So are we trying to mollify the RAIB/ORR with sliding door stick at the diesel gala … a Castle HST is coming I see 😉

[Mark Saunders]

52 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

So are we trying to mollify the RAIB/ORR with sliding door stick at the diesel gala … a Castle HST is coming I see 😉

How about the authentic experience of  sending them to the station entrance for a rail replacement bus!

[uax6]

14 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

I've never tried to use one, only seen them for sale.  Is the sound quality worse than when they were the latest thing in telephonic wizardry?  I don't recall our old bakelite phone being exactly hi-fi...

 

Yes, on a normal line from BT they make you sound tinny and quiet. The other end is also quite quiet too. Certainly not as good as a 700 on the same line.

It appears that the line current (and possibly voltage) isn't as much as it used to be, which certainly doesn't help, as I say, on my Strowger UAX12 at home they aren't as bad, still a bit tinny, but at least at a better volume.

 

Andy G

[uax6]

I don't foresee central door locks being require just yet, but I do wonder if the hi-vis yellow that was fitted to the DMU's and 3CEP's door edges that were still on the national network will be required on preserved stock. These strips make it easier to see any doors 'on the catch'. I wouldn't object on Mk1's and 2's, but on earlier stock it would be a bit wrong, but again, it would be better than not being able to ride in them. 

 

I don't think having volunteers to act as door agents would be viable, how would that work in compartment stock? And locking the doors on a carriage key shouldn't be suggested either, as what happens in that accident when the stock is damaged (fire/overturned) that we haven't had yet? 

 

Central door locks could be fitted to any door, and concealed completely,  but the cost of doing so would put most preserved lines out of business.

 

The answer is to have longer dwell times at each station, and have someone walk the length of the train making sure each handle is level and the door shut.

 

Andy G

[Bucoops]

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

I don't foresee central door locks being require just yet, but I do wonder if the hi-vis yellow that was fitted to the DMU's and 3CEP's door edges that were still on the national network will be required on preserved stock. These strips make it easier to see any doors 'on the catch'. I wouldn't object on Mk1's and 2's, but on earlier stock it would be a bit wrong, but again, it would be better than not being able to ride in them. 

 

I don't think having volunteers to act as door agents would be viable, how would that work in compartment stock? And locking the doors on a carriage key shouldn't be suggested either, as what happens in that accident when the stock is damaged (fire/overturned) that we haven't had yet? 

 

Central door locks could be fitted to any door, and concealed completely,  but the cost of doing so would put most preserved lines out of business.

 

The answer is to have longer dwell times at each station, and have someone walk the length of the train making sure each handle is level and the door shut.

 

Andy G

 

I seem to recall a few years back the NYMR put those strips on the doors, which didn't go down well with the LNERCA. 

[009 micro modeller]

Interestingly there is a National Preservation thread on this as well: https://national-preservation.com/threads/door-locks.1422228/page-3#post-2809371

 

As it’s a preservation rather than modelling forum the slant is perhaps a bit different which is fair enough. However, I’ve linked to page 3 of that thread as I think the top post raises a good point about customer service:

 

’I tend to think in this modern mostly automated world now that we forget just how many staff were on platforms back in the age when some of these carriages were in daily use. From Station Masters to porters carrying luggage, many passengers having doors opened and closed for them as part of the service. I should imagine it's not inconceivable there were at least one, if not more members of staff per carriage, and once all aboard they all had the duty to check the doors and give the nod that all is well, or the guard walks the carriages on a final door check.
Now with staff at a premium, and especially if volunteer based, the level of staffing on platforms is much lower, people are not taking luggage so no porters, the personal service much lower. 
So perhaps the number of those who struggle with the locks isn't that much higher than before, just less available staff to check? 
Obviously today that causes a big problem as often staff now rely on the passengers to operate the locks, whereas before a member of staff at the carriages would hold the door open for the ladies and gentlemen while the porter loaded their luggage. 
"Sir, Madam, Welcome to the Great Western Railway, I hope you have an enjoyable journey, we will be leaving at 10.15am. Mind the step, let me help you Madam.... there we go. I note from your tickets you are travelling to Exeter, the train should arrive at xx.xxpm, a very good day to you both", and tips his hat.
A bygone age not only for the traveller, but staffing too.’

 

One of the things that was emphasised in the training I did when I started my current museum job (but which should be fairly obvious anyway, if you think about it) is that for paid heritage/tourist attractions (which heritage railways generally are) people ideally need to experience a higher level of customer service than elsewhere because it’s a discretionary spend and something they do in their spare time, and which should be enjoyable.

 

For instance, when I visit a supermarket, as long as I don’t get overcharged and nobody is actively rude to me then that’s probably OK (I’d obviously expect the products to be safe to use, as advertised etc. as a matter of course). Similarly commuting on the national network or the Tube I just want the train to be safe and reasonably punctual. On a heritage railway (or at a museum, or at a tourist attraction) though, it’s about the overall experience and not just a way of getting from A to B (or buying basic food supplies, as in the supermarket example).
 

This isn’t intended to downplay the importance of customer service in more ‘everyday’ environments or the skills of those working in them obviously, simply saying that in leisure/discretionary spend environments it’s perhaps even more important, because if the customers don’t like it they don’t have to come back.

[Hal Nail]

13 hours ago, uax6 said:

These strips make it easier to see any doors 'on the catch'. I wouldn't object on Mk1's and 2's, but on earlier stock it would be a bit wrong, but again, it would be better than not being able to ride in them. 

The earlier doors we are talking about close flush even if the handles haven't been turned to hold them shut, so those strips wouldn't actually help.

 

I think your final point is probably the answer.

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Hal Nail

[rodent279]

Could older stock be fitted with MK1 style door locks?

[wasabi]

The Talyllyn was mentioned much earlier; due to (lack of) clearences they were required from the start to lock all doors on one side of the train permanently when in service, which is why the stations always have the platform on one side and crossing loops are outside stations.  I haven't been there for years but I assume that is still the case?

[wasabi]

In the early 80s a friend of mine regularly travelled from Waterloo to Hampshire.  The main line trains had some compartments with a side corridor.  On one occaison (quite possibly at the last minute) she got into a compartment which turned out to be full and almost opened the far door expecting there to be a corridor.  It was only the quick reaction of someone sat by the window that prevented her from falling onto the track.  I don't remember exactly but I think she thought she was getting into something like a VEP when it was actually more like a SUB.

[Bert Cheese]

I used to get to my first job at the newly built Hedge End station fom Eastleigh around 1990 and having aquired a few spare keys from my father had a carriage key on my keyring for some reason at the time...the EP, SUB S-Key, BR1 and others were left at home and I still have them now.

One morning I got on the 07:30-ish Hampshire unit from EH Platform 3 as usual, but on arrival at Hedge End had to get out the other side upon much to my surprise the door wouldn't open, not wanting to end up in Fareham/be late for work instinct took over and I alighted with a few others behind me using my carriage key...there was then a bit of shouting as it appeared most of the other doors on that side were locked too.

Not sure what happened these, I was only 16 at the time and obviously shouldn't have had the key on me so just legged it out the station and up Shamblehurst Lane trying not to look suspicious as the guard and such were getting agitated from the sounds of things...was this the first trip off depot, I never knew the diagrams as such?

 

[rodent279]

On 29/04/2023 at 20:55, Reorte said:

 

I don't entirely agree with that, even though you don't have to look far to find people without any. The problem is assuming that it's something you're born with, but it really comes from experience (and a willingness to learn from experience).

You're right there, and it's also something that we all have a different interpretation of.

 

It's the labelling people that really narks me, it's divisive and unnecessary. I don't think it's fair to ridicule those who cannot reasonably be expected to use things, because they have never come across them in life.

[phil-b259]

On 07/05/2023 at 06:29, uax6 said:

 

I don't think having volunteers to act as door agents would be viable, how would that work in compartment stock? And locking the doors on a carriage key shouldn't be suggested either, as what happens in that accident when the stock is damaged (fire/overturned) that we haven't had yet? 

 

 

The ORR would take a very dim view of any railway 'planning' to have accidents / fires which requires the doors to be opened for passenger escape as such events  - particularly at a Heritage railway running at a maximum of 25mph would indicate a failure of said organisation to comply with ROGS legislation.  If your SMS is such that you perceive the risk s of people needing to escape a train away from a station are grater than the risks of someone falling out through an unsecured door then there is something very wrong with your approach to safety - particularly as has been highlighted the increasing lack of experience of manual doors in everyday life means prospective passengers are less careful than they used to be while conversely, H&S legislation has required organisations to be far more proactive in eliminating things which they can control.

 

Compartment stock is a slightly different case as the ability to exit via the gangway connection into the next coach does give a potential escape route and in such cases will most likely be treated differently from corridor stock.

 

On the Bluebell for example an official instruction has been issued to crews / guards / station staff that with respect to compartment stock, if it will not fit within the usable platform area at Sheffield Park (the station with the shortest platforms) then passengers must be turfed out and the coach locked out of service before it is allowed to depart from Horsted Keynes. If it is a coach with a corridor connection then it can remain in passenger service but the appropriate number of doors must be locked out of use (so that all openable doors will be properly platformed) before departure.

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

You're right there, and it's also something that we all have a different interpretation of.

 

It's the labelling people that really narks me, it's divisive and unnecessary. I don't think it's fair to ridicule those who cannot reasonably be expected to use things, because they have never come across them in life.

Would be like us assuming every man over 18 in 1939 could shoot a gun or fly a spitfire and all women could machine a shell casing or build a tank.

[jjb1970]

There is a huge part of the population now which will never have had to use slam door stock or lean out of the window to use outside handles, therefore it is not only predictable but entirely reasonable that they wouldn't know how to manage the doors on something like a Mk.1 coach. When my wife moved to the UK (from what is derided by many in Europe as a poor country) she was completely lost the first time she travelled on a Mk.3 coach as she'd never seen such a primitive arrangement for a train door, I had to show her that you pull the window down, lean out and use the outside handle. When you think about it, that is pretty ridiculous in the modern world.

[009 micro modeller]

8 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

There is a huge part of the population now which will never have had to use slam door stock or lean out of the window to use outside handles

I think the bit in bold is the oddest bit for a lot of people because there’s virtually nothing else that works like this. Obviously carriages used to have internal handles anyway, which are more logical but less safe of course.

[RichardT]

8 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I think the bit in bold is the oddest bit for a lot of people because there’s virtually nothing else that works like this. Obviously carriages used to have internal handles anyway, which are more logical but less safe of course.

To be fair, the Mk3 “lean out of the window” method was BR’s short-term reaction to the perceived danger of the inside door handles with which these carriages were originally fitted.
 

I served on a coroner’s jury in York c.1980 which was examining the case of a body found by the lineside near York.  The deceased was an unemployed man who’d travelled to London to look for work (unsuccessfully) and had fallen from the train on his return journey.  The photographic evidence was not pretty.
 

There was some inconclusive circumstantial evidence that possibly could have indicated that he was in a depressed state of mind (he was drinking heavily and there was a fragmentary note to his family.) But then the Transport Police witness demonstrated the Mk.3 internal door handle mechanism, showing that it had a half-latch for safety requiring two deliberate movements to open the door. However he could not swear to the fact that a door left on the half-latch wouldn’t swing open if subject to a sharp force e.g. someone stumbling against it (perhaps if intoxicated) as the train lurched, and had to admit that a door left on the half-latch would appear “closed” to platform staff. After hearing that the coroner directed us to return an open verdict (which was anyway the most humane verdict for the family) based on the ambiguous safety level of the internal door handle.  
 

Soon after I noticed internal handles disappearing from Mk.3s, so I bet there were other similar coroner's court hearings elsewhere, and eventually retro-fit central door-locking came in.  But no-one expected the Mk3s, especially HSTs, to last so long that their external-only door handles would become such an obvious anachronism.

 

The past is another country - they do things differently there.

 

RichardT

Edited May 10, 2023 by RichardT
adding a phrase