Carriage door intelligence tests

[Chrisr40]

Apologies if mentioned elsewhere but this made me sigh.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-11994097/Historic-train-carriages-taken-service-Gen-Z-passengers-use-doors.html

[franciswilliamwebb]

"around 20 of the seating areas have had to be stored since the beginning of the year"

 

Ye gods 🙄

[Oldddudders]

Another triumph for 'progress'. Mind you, plenty of occasional travellers struggled with those doors, not least getting the window to lower! But delighted to hear Gen Z wants to spend money on heritage railways. 

[AY Mod]

I think we'd be better waiting for some more informed narrative ( @Blandford1969 ?) before reacting to the divisive anti-young Daily Mail slant.

[Mallard60022]

Dear God. I sadly and accidentally looked at some of the readers responses online. According to one it's all the Teachers faults, because they are all Communists. These people actually can vote. 

I despair.

However, the safety of passengers and users is paramount and so many folk of a certain age have never used 'older' Trains with Slam Doors and maybe never even used the current ones!

Phil

Edited April 23, 2023 by Mallard60022
Removed Political obscenity.

[woodenhead]

But it does rather confirm my point on the GCR incident that most people today are not used to trains where safety is the responsibility of the user because selective door locking has relieved them of that decision making.

 

If the Severn Valley has withdrawn some coaches due to fear of an incident then to me it suggests they are pre-empting possible involvement by H&S /  RAIB following on from the GCR incident.

 

Edit: took a look at some other articles on the DM website, it's just a series of fear inducing articles really - apparently there has been some bad weather in Spain and now there are no peppers PANIC - thought they came from big greenhouses in the Netherlands.

Edited April 23, 2023 by woodenhead

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

I understand all the heritage railways will have to provide these under the H&S ruling.

 

Mike.

[SR71]

The article is muck raking tabloid journalism, *but* when were the last slam door coaches in use on the national network? I'm a millennial apparently but only just remember them.

 

Arriving/departing with open doors means someone failed to complete their responsibility properly. Signalman, platform staff, and guard are all supposed to be visually checking the handles are in the closed position on departing trains. I've twice been on trains on preserved lines that have been stopped half way out the station because of this but in era when volunteers were made up of a lot of staff from steam era.

 

Recently I've noted platform volunteers are more likely to be heading to the kettle as the train goes out. Edit to add after re reading: not wanting to imply that volunteers are being willfully negligent. More that generally processes followed need to be adapted to reflect that common knowledge is less common than it used to be even amongst those running the railway.

 

Similarly platform volunteers should be encouraged to show people the doors as a feature of historic interest. How many on here could confidently drive a car with manual ignition advance and centre throttle without guidance? Both common features in the interwar years.

 

Non-latching doors accessable to the public have probably had their day. Historical fidelity is not really lost if these are updated to slam door type but the burden of safety checks on volunteers is reduced.

Edited April 23, 2023 by SR71

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

That there are some people who can't work a slam door I don't doubt, but what happened to the old fashioned idea of asking someone for help and assistance?

 

Mike.

[TinTracks]

As I recall both the Ffestiniog and the TalyLlyn platform/on train staff used to lock the carriage doors before the train departed. Unlocking them, as required, when stopped at a station.  I may be a bit out of date with this info as I haven't visited since November 2019. This practice would maybe help those unfamiliar with opening slam doors

 Regards, Rich

[franciswilliamwebb]

24 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

but what happened to the old fashioned idea of asking someone for help and assistance?

 

Perhaps there's no mobile reception? 😉

[Mallard60022]

51 minutes ago, SR71 said:

The article is muck raking tabloid journalism, *but* when were the last slam door coaches in use on the national network? I'm a millennial apparently but only just remember them.

 

Arriving/departing with open doors means someone failed to complete their responsibility properly. Signalman, platform staff, and guard are all supposed to be visually checking the handles are in the closed position on departing trains. I've twice been on trains on preserved lines that have been stopped half way out the station because of this but in era when volunteers were made up of a lot of staff from steam era.

 

Recently I've noted platform volunteers are more likely to be heading to the kettle as the train goes out. Edit to add after re reading: not wanting to imply that volunteers are being willfully negligent. More that generally processes followed need to be adapted to reflect that common knowledge is less common than it used to be even amongst those running the railway.

 

Similarly platform volunteers should be encouraged to show people the doors as a feature of historic interest. How many on here could confidently drive a car with manual ignition advance and centre throttle without guidance? Both common features in the interwar years.

 

Non-latching doors accessable to the public have probably had their day. Historical fidelity is not really lost if these are updated to slam door type but the burden of safety checks on volunteers is reduced.

Station Staff (if there are any) these days have to watch the Train clear the Platform at which it has stopped.

Heritage Lines could easily tweak their Door/Handle checks before Departure, as a first step.

Once the Heritage Train is underway is a different matter. That will be a tougher issue to crack.

Asking for 'assistance' when alighting, is not always feasible.

When passengers are joining I agree that Station Staff should be busy and willing to help briefly and also just give a warning about NOT touching the Doors at all when the Train is moving.

Phil

 

[mcowgill]

34 minutes ago, TinTracks said:

As I recall both the Ffestiniog and the TalyLlyn platform/on train staff used to lock the carriage doors before the train departed. Unlocking them, as required, when stopped at a station.  I may be a bit out of date with this info as I haven't visited since November 2019. This practice would maybe help those unfamiliar with opening slam doors

 Regards, Rich

The FR have been locking doors since1863, IIRC it was a condition of Captain Tyler's inspection before passanger trains started.  it's due to the minimal clearance between doors and the walls at various points on the line, only outward opening doors are affected, recent carriages with inward opening doors aren't locked.  

 

I believe the TR started locking doors in response to door catch issues, I believe a new design is being rolled out over time.

 

Martin 

Edited April 23, 2023 by mcowgill

[Mark Saunders]

You could tell as the roll out of power doors became more commonplace, the East Coast trains having fewer HST’s that required passengers to open and close doors. The ability of people to open the doors to get off was fine but closing them was certainly not something they could do and you could watch trains loose two minutes at almost every station. The late evening ones were particularly affected and from personal observation it was younger passengers were the worst!

[Boris]

Reading between the lines I don't think its the slam locks on the set specifically that are the issue, its the locks on some of the saloons (and possibly other vehicles) that are completely manual so you have to slam the door and physically turn the door handle to the horizontal (locked) position, saloons tend to be staffed by catering staff rather than operating staff who aren't always as on the ball when checking the doors.  I'm aware of several incidents where doors have come open in traffic on the GWR saloons, a passenger also fell from one in the mid 90s somewhere and the NYMR have ripped the door off their saloon twice leaving with improperly secured doors.

 

I'm going to say it, having been involved in training platform staff on preserved railways there are always going to be people who are more interested in staring at the steam engine than doing their job.  I gave up training them in frustration years ago  because a good number of them refuse to accept they have any responsibilities between posing for photographs and bossing people about, and routinely citing the Merseyrail PTI incident fell on deaf ears, having seen CCTV of multiple incidents where something happened and the station staff either weren't looking or just stood and stared I'm amazed someone hasn't been killed or maimed  yet.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Boris

[The White Rabbit]

Pre Covid I visited the South Devon and amongst the literature handed out with tickets was a leaflet about 'steam trains', including a section on carriage doors and how to work the handles/mechanisms. 

 

When I was on platform duties on a heritage line, I always walked down the length of the train before giving the right away, making sure all doors were fully closed and handles were horizontal. Better safe than sorry. 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, The White Rabbit said:

Pre Covid I visited the South Devon and amongst the literature handed out with tickets was a leaflet about 'steam trains', including a section on carriage doors and how to work the handles/mechanisms. 

 

When I was on platform duties on a heritage line, I always walked down the length of the train before giving the right away, making sure all doors were fully closed and handles were horizontal. Better safe than sorry. 

The guard gives the Right Away, the station staff give the station duties complete signal to the Guard - pedant mode off.

 

That's good practice, I always tried to train people that a slam lock door is either open or closed, never on the catch, so you never ignored a door in that state.  You can also look along the coach lining, a broken line means an insecure door.

[The White Rabbit]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

The guard gives the Right Away, the station staff give the station duties complete signal to the Guard - pedant mode off.

 

That's good practice, I always tried to train people that a slam lock door is either open or closed, never on the catch, so you never ignored a door in that state.  You can also look along the coach lining, a broken line means an insecure door.

 

OK, yes, it was a signal to the guard that we were happy for the train to leave. 

 

We averaged about one door on 'the catch' per train. It kept us busy but we did sometimes wonder how many problems or accidents we prevented. Yes, the yellow and black 'waist' lining was useful, highlighted 'iffy' doors before you got to them, often the guard would shout and ask you to check them before you'd reached them on the walk down and back. 

[Morello Cherry]

Of course in the old days no one ever fell out of an unsecured door, there were definitely no fatalities or injuries caused by unsecured doors, likewise, there were never any station delays caused by doors being left open, or people sprinting down the stairs and trying to leap into a train just as it started. The drive to get rid of slam door stock was the nanny state in overdrive...

 

FWIW - I seem to recall a carriage blog from one of the lines (I forget which) mentioning that special attention had to be paid to the doors of carriages belonging to specific companies because when worn they could be opened much more easily from inside and so there was an increased risk of people falling out when the train was in motion.

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

Of course in the old days no one ever fell out of an unsecured door, there were definitely no fatalities or injuries caused by unsecured doors, likewise, there were never any station delays caused by doors being left open, or people sprinting down the stairs and trying to leap into a train just as it started. The drive to get rid of slam door stock was the nanny state in overdrive...

 

FWIW - I seem to recall a carriage blog from one of the lines (I forget which) mentioning that special attention had to be paid to the doors of carriages belonging to specific companies because when worn they could be opened much more easily from inside and so there was an increased risk of people falling out when the train was in motion.

Sort of, except the drive to get rid of slam doors was to make things easier for access as well as safety and it was very much the adoption of Railway best practice, as seen on Stock elsewhere in the World where Rolling Stock design had surpassed most of what was used in Britain well into the 80s.

Phil

[Morello Cherry]

I am trying to think where outside of the UK/Ireland that I've used slam door stock. Romania used to have doors that could be manually opened but I am pretty sure that they were folding and inward opening.

[Blandford1969]

The sets concerned are the two GWR sets. As many will know the feature of these coaches is that the locks have to be manually turned through 90 degrees to either open or close them. 

 

As the article mentions with COVID these sets were used more having more compartments. The number of people who could be witnessed at Bridgnorth pulling the open door closed and either

 

1) expecting it to automatically latch if in the open position, or

2) damage the latch if they had turned it to the closed position. 

 

We do also see people pressing the rubber bump stops expecting the door to open.  The age of the people I have observed struggling with doors has been anything from 20s to 60's so not sure the Gen Z comment is accurate or fair.

 

The railway has taken a pre-emptive move in relation to these two sets and has taken them temporarily out of service. There are as mentioned a number of things taking place. 

 

1) Updated risk assessments are being carried out taking into account recent experiences and the pattern of locks which have more often been found open. 

2) Updated training for platform staff.

3) Additional training of platform staff is being looked at 

4) As mentioned there is a solution of a GW self latching lock as fitted on some later GW coaches. These locks though are £350 each and so you can imagine the cost changing all the locks. 

 

We already tell passengers which coach to use for which station. 

 

In terms of the article it must have been a slow news day for them to pick up on it and of course put their slant on it. 

 

The reality is that the environment has changed massively in regards to Health and Safety and the expectations of the ORR . The expectations are not far short of the standards on Network Rail. Each incident on any railway results in the Safety Committee looking at what happened and any lessons that can be learned and applied to the SVR. 

 

Not sure what else to add to this, other than we hope to see them back out again in the near future. 

 

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

apparently there has been some bad weather in Spain and now there are no peppers PANIC - thought they came from big greenhouses in the Netherlands.

Aldi normally (?) get theirs from Spain and had them in stock on Thursday. I purchased one.

[melmerby]

TBH

I didn't know that earlier GWR carriages locked differently to a BR Mk1 as even when young and steam was the norm, I dont recall coming across them.

[Talltim]

10 hours ago, SR71 said:

The article is muck raking tabloid journalism, *but* when were the last slam door coaches in use on the national network? I'm a millennial apparently but only just remember them.

 

 

EMR HSTs were withdrawn 2 years ago, were they the last in ordinary revenue service?

Edited April 23, 2023 by Talltim