Identifying PO Wagon colour

[JohnR]

I've been researching this PO wagon, used by the Dundee Eastern Co-Operative Society (commonly known as DECS), but I've been unable to find out what the base colour was. Is there anyway to tell/guess from a B&W photo? 

 

Someone had suggested that it might be Red Oxide, a colour used by a number of other local co-ops in Scotland. Further research however, has produced the fact the the (very faint) diamond logo on the cupboard door was in fact red, thus making it unlikely that the base colour was a different shade of red. 

 

The photo is supposedly taken in 1950, but I would have thought it would have had evidence of its new ownership by then? The stencilled name on the left is intriguing too - presumably done during the war while pooled?

[Wickham Green too]

The stencilled name was a common wartime means of marking pooled wagons where the livery had worn badly - though this side, at least, looks fairly legible still. One of the contributors to model magazines, many yonks ago, referred to this as 'pirate's eye' lettering - but I've never known what that meant !

If that diamond on the drop door is, indeed, red, there's a fair chance that the base colour would be grey ........ though something more exotic like blue or green isn't totally impossible !

[gwrrob]

An email to the guys at POWsides might also shed some light on the colour.

[franciswilliamwebb]

7 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

One of the contributors to model magazines, many yonks ago, referred to this as 'pirate's eye' lettering - but I've never known what that meant !

 

Patched?

[65179]

4 hours ago, JohnR said:

I've been researching this PO wagon, used by the Dundee Eastern Co-Operative Society (commonly known as DECS), but I've been unable to find out what the base colour was. Is there anyway to tell/guess from a B&W photo? 

 

Someone had suggested that it might be Red Oxide, a colour used by a number of other local co-ops in Scotland. Further research however, has produced the fact the the (very faint) diamond logo on the cupboard door was in fact red, thus making it unlikely that the base colour was a different shade of red. 

 

The photo is supposedly taken in 1950, but I would have thought it would have had evidence of its new ownership by then? The stencilled name on the left is intriguing too - presumably done during the war while pooled?

 

It took until late 1949 to devise the P number scheme and a substantial number of wagons hadn't received their new  numbers by the scheme's abandonment (info from David Larkin's Acquired Wagon series).  That wagon's in probably the most common state for an ex-PO wagon in 1950: partially re-planked, original 'livery' still fairly visible and owner and wagon number added to (try to) make sure the details aren't lost.

 

Regards,

Simon

[bécasse]

What is most unusual is that the top plank on the nearside (but not, apparently, on the far side) has had a significant capping added at some time within its pool service (since the capping partially covers the painted owner's name). The job has been done very neatly too with properly spaced clips holding it on and the strapping either side of the door placed over it.

 

It was commonplace for open (and especially mineral) wagons to have a steel capping strip along the top edge of the uppermost plank but this is more substantial, a ¬ at least and quite possibly an inverted ⌴.

[Sitham Yard]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

What is most unusual is that the top plank on the nearside (but not, apparently, on the far side) has had a significant capping added at some time within its pool service (since the capping partially covers the painted owner's name). The job has been done very neatly too with properly spaced clips holding it on and the strapping either side of the door placed over it.

 

It was commonplace for open (and especially mineral) wagons to have a steel capping strip along the top edge of the uppermost plank but this is more substantial, a ¬ at least and quite possibly an inverted ⌴.

To my eyes it is the top part of the uppermost plank that has been replaced by a separate piece of timber and then the usual steel capping strip placed on top. 

Andrew 

[Compound2632]

There is only one guaranteed method to find out.

 

Build a model, paint it red (or grey) and letter it &c. Exhibit it at a show in the east of Scotland. there will certainly be someone eager to tell you that you've got it wrong and it should be grey (or red).

 

On a less facetious note, is it known whether this wagon was originally registered with or based at a station of the Caledonian or the North British? There was a bit of a tendency (though with many exceptions) for PO wagons to adopt the base colour of their home company's wagons.

Looking at models made by two modellers of the Caledonian on here, @Dave John and @Caley Jim, that seems to be case.

[Dave John]

Debateable really, though I'd go grey. Perth Co-op were a lightish grey , Scottish and Clydebank co-op darker grey. Blairgowrie co-op seem to have been red oxide. 

 

However by 1950 it really is a guess unless you can find a reference or a builders note. 

 

 

[Caley Jim]

Been alerted to this thread by @Compound2632 giving me a mention. Have you checked if there is a photo of one of the companies wagons in the HMRS collection? If it's a Pickering built one then the card record are with Motherwell library and that would give you the livery. I'm not at home just now but will check if I have any info. I can also check with a couple of Dundonians of my acquaintance.

 

Jim

[Hal Nail]

15 hours ago, franciswilliamwebb said:

 

Patched?

either that or extensively over-worked :)

[JohnR]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

There is only one guaranteed method to find out.

 

Build a model, paint it red (or grey) and letter it &c. Exhibit it at a show in the east of Scotland. there will certainly be someone eager to tell you that you've got it wrong and it should be grey (or red).

 

On a less facetious note, is it known whether this wagon was originally registered with or based at a station of the Caledonian or the North British? There was a bit of a tendency (though with many exceptions) for PO wagons to adopt the base colour of their home company's wagons.

Looking at models made by two modellers of the Caledonian on here, @Dave John and @Caley Jim, that seems to be case.

 

Ha, yes a sure fire way! 

 

Interestingly, all the sources I've been able to consult on this dont list DECS as having a wagon registered with either of the pre-grouping companies - it could be that they only acquired one post 1923. 

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, bécasse said:

What is most unusual is that the top plank on the nearside (but not, apparently, on the far side) has had a significant capping added at some time within its pool service (since the capping partially covers the painted owner's name). The job has been done very neatly too with properly spaced clips holding it on and the strapping either side of the door placed over it.

 

It was commonplace for open (and especially mineral) wagons to have a steel capping strip along the top edge of the uppermost plank but this is more substantial, a ¬ at least and quite possibly an inverted ⌴.

 

9 hours ago, Sitham Yard said:

To my eyes it is the top part of the uppermost plank that has been replaced by a separate piece of timber and then the usual steel capping strip placed on top. 

 

I think I'm with Andrew on this. It's possible that the top plank had been damaged - perhaps the capping had come away. The top plank being a non-standard size, it was evidently easier to plane it down and add a smaller piece on top than find a piece of timber big enough to do a complete replacement. It was, perhaps, when this was done that the additional lettering was added.

 

1 minute ago, JohnR said:

Interestingly, all the sources I've been able to consult on this dont list DECS as having a wagon registered with either of the pre-grouping companies - it could be that they only acquired one post 1923. 

 

A second-hand wagon - that does rather reduce the chances of finding anything more out, unless a hire or repair contract can be found in one of the wagon companies' ledgers. If DECS bought it outright, even less chance.

 

PO wagons fall into the following categories:

1. those for which there is documentary evidence and a photograph including a record of livery (e.g. Gloucester officials);
2. those for which there is documentary evidence and a photograph;
3. those for which there is documentary evidence (e.g. railway company PO registers, builder's records);
4. those for which there is only a photograph;
5. those which are known to have existed but for which there is neither documentary evidence nor a photograph;
6. and those which existed but have left no trace.

[JohnR]

43 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Been alerted to this thread by @Compound2632 giving me a mention. Have you checked if there is a photo of one of the companies wagons in the HMRS collection? If it's a Pickering built one then the card record are with Motherwell library and that would give you the livery. I'm not at home just now but will check if I have any info. I can also check with a couple of Dundonians of my acquaintance.

 

Jim

 

This photo is in the HMRS collection, it is almost the only reference to the Dundee Eastern having a wagon!

 

I'm not sure who the builder was, but it looks like a trip to Motherwell is in order!

[kevinlms]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

I think I'm with Andrew on this. It's possible that the top plank had been damaged - perhaps the capping had come away. The top plank being a non-standard size, it was evidently easier to plane it down and add a smaller piece on top than find a piece of timber big enough to do a complete replacement. It was, perhaps, when this was done that the additional lettering was added.

 

 

A second-hand wagon - that does rather reduce the chances of finding anything more out, unless a hire or repair contract can be found in one of the wagon companies' ledgers. If DECS bought it outright, even less chance.

 

PO wagons fall into the following categories:

1. those for which there is documentary evidence and a photograph including a record of livery (e.g. Gloucester officials);
2. those for which there is documentary evidence and a photograph;
3. those for which there is documentary evidence (e.g. railway company PO registers, builder's records);
4. those for which there is only a photograph;
5. those which are known to have existed but for which there is neither documentary evidence nor a photograph;
6. and those which existed but have left no trace.

7. And those for which R-T-R companies made up, or customers asked them to make a batch (some like Dapol will create them to minimum orders of 100, I believe) for their own reasons.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

those which are known to have existed but for which there is neither documentary evidence nor a photograph;

 

How would we know about these - anecdotal evidence? Or...?

[Compound2632]

  

6 minutes ago, magmouse said:

How would we know about these - anecdotal evidence? Or...?

 

Yes, I think so. Ninety-year-old Ethel recalls that her grandfather the coal merchant had wagons. By "documentary evidence" I mean an entry in a builder's order book a railway company PO wagon register, or even a goods yard ledger. (I have some examples of the latter from the Skipton Minerals Inwards ledger for 1896 - 1901 that I've been looking at.)

Edited May 2, 2023 by Compound2632

[Caley Jim]

There are also those modellers (David Jenkinson for one, whose example I follow) who create their own in recognition of their friends! 

 

Jim 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

This photo is in the HMRS collection, it is almost the only reference to the Dundee Eastern having a wagon

IIRC the HMRS photos are arranged by where the collection came from and there is a Pickering collection. As I said, I'll check when I'm home later in the week. 

 

Jim 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

... 4. those for which there is only a photograph;

... 4a. those for which there is only a coal merchant's 'shop window' model ;

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

... 4a. those for which there is only a coal merchant's 'shop window' model ;

Which could well have been much more common than one might imagine. I well remember such models still being displayed by coal merchants in southern England in areas where the vast majority of coal had arrived, pre-pooling, in wagons owned by coal factors, most notably, but not exclusively, Stephenson Clarke "S C".

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

... 4a. those for which there is only a coal merchant's 'shop window' model ;

 

Also, illustrations of various sorts in advertising material. Ian Pope says nonconformist chapel publications are a good place to look, since a coal merchant was just the sort of person to be an Elder, and hence have first dibs on advertising space.

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

  

 

Yes, I think so. Ninety-year-old Ethel recalls that her grandfather the coal merchant had wagons. By "documentary evidence" I mean an entry in a builder's order book a railway company PO wagon register, or even a goods yard ledger. (I have some examples of the latter from the Skipton Minerals Inwards ledger for 1896 - 1901 that I've been looking at.)

Not going to answer the OP's question about colour, or rather unlikely to.

 

Best you'll get from such order books are:- They came in red/blue/black/brown or whatever colour wagon and had the owners name on them in big white letters - less often other colour lettering. I'm not dismissing them as useful information, but as time goes on, less information is likely, not more.

I say the last bit, because frequently on RMweb, we read that books, magazines etc, get tossed in the recycling, because I couldn't give them away! In fact I've seen, 'if not gone by the weekend, they're OUT'!

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Not going to answer the OP's question about colour, or rather unlikely to.

 

No indeed.

 

6 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

 

I'm not dismissing them as useful information, but as time goes on, less information is likely, not more.

I say the last bit, because frequently on RMweb, we read that books, magazines etc, get tossed in the recycling, because I couldn't give them away! In fact I've seen, 'if not gone by the weekend, they're OUT'!

 

I'm not unduly worried by the throwing-out of secondary material as there will be other copies. But if anyone is throwing out primary material such as builders' order books, then they do need to be looking for a better home for their material.

 

That reflects my rather general feeling against primary material being held in private collections, where it is (a) inaccessible to researchers and (b) more prone to loss, compared to being held in some public archive, whether that be a county record office or a line society archive, where that society is a charity and hence has a public benefit obligation.

[Bristol_Rich]

AI comes up with these results…as an indicative guide…