Large express services originating from obscure locations

[Ian Hargrave]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Dont/didn't a couple of the Chiltern silver trains run through to Stourbridge rather than Birmingham?

Or even Kidderminster?  I saw one stabled complete  with 67 at Stourbridge Jct. on the weekend of the SVR steam event. Does it spend its weekend there ? 

[melmerby]

Up to last week Chiltern were running loco hauled trains to Kiddy, stabled at Stourbridge.

Looks like they've stopped now.

 

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

In GNER days, some cl.91+Mk4 KX-Edinburgh services worked through to Glasgow Central via Carstairs. 

As well as using a set that would otherwise be idle, it gave a service from the ECML stations to Glasgow without having to change trains (esp. for those who would prefer to go into Central).

EDIT: I don't think they stopped en route, so although slower than Edin-Queen Street they weren't as slow as the commuter service.

Most called at Motherwell and Haymarket. There was once one scheduled from London in 4h57 (3h59 to Edinburgh).

 

It is 50.5 miles via Carstairs to Glasgow Central against 47.25 via the usual line into Queen Street via Falkirk High. The Shotts line is ironically the shortest route at 46 miles but is 70 max on its own section, though a XC working goes that way everyday for route retention.

 

It was a regular two-hourly ECML service to Glasgow Central, only ended in 2011 under East Coast's regular interval "Eureka" timetable which saw the number of Newcastle semi-fasts which extended to Edinburgh significantly increased and Leeds receive a regularly half-hourly service all day (as well as now all timed for 125mph instead of many off-peak workings timed at 110); among other changes.

 

The responsibility then passed to Arriva CrossCountry for Glasgow-Edinburgh-York services and integrated into their hourly Edinburgh-Plymouth service.

 

 

[john new]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Lots of XC trains terminated at Poole. Originally, they would have terminated at Bournemouth West but had to be moved when BW closed. Terminating at Central would have messed up the Waterloo - Weymouth service too much.

One of my many "might-have-been"  layout plans is a reduced Bournemouth West in the early 1970s.

Possibly a legacy of services to the midlands and north over the S&D being dropped with Poole being seen as large/busy enough for to be retained when the revised routes out via Oxford came in.  Plus yes the ferries.

[SM42]

56 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Up to last week Chiltern were running loco hauled trains to Kiddy, stabled at Stourbridge.

Looks like they've stopped now.

 

 

Apparently the DfT have told them to stop competing with West Midlands Trains, or so I've been told.

 

No more direct Kidderminster Marylebone services in the new timetable

 

The only strange combinations I can think of, although not expresses  were

 

Worcester Shrub Hill - Weston Super Mare ( handy for a trip to Cheltenham Models in the days when a Bachmann Mk 1 was around £20)

 

Maesteg - Cheltenham  ( more recent and an Arriva Trains Wales service IIRC)

 

And at one time in the early 90s an early evening

Moreton in Marsh - Stourbridge Jn.  Arriving around 7.30pm

 

This then ran ECS to Worcester Shrub Hill depot and didn't hang about either. 

 

 

 

Andy

Edited May 16, 2023 by SM42

[Andy Kirkham]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Two of them daily to connect with the Rosslare ferries, so, yes, Harbour.  The daytime train was a Canton Castle turn for loco and crew, and at one time they were the only regular passenger workings over the Swansea District line.  They connected with ferry sailings from Fishguard at 03.40 and 1540, and were connections for passengers arriving from Rosslare in the up direction, off Fishguard about 02.30 IIRC  and into Cardiff 04.35, arrival Paddington 07.45 in steam days, 06.15 HST. 
 

To be fair I don’t think Fishguard counts as an ‘obscure location’.  It’s no seething Metropolis for sure (nor is Stranraer), and Harbour is a good distance from what town there is, about a mile that you wouldn’t want to walk in the rain, but it was a major investment for the GW, intended to be an Ocean Liner stop, and Paddington considered it an important destination, the route to major cities like Cork snd Dublin. 
 

The Southern’s ‘Withered Arm’ ACE through coaches are worth considering in this context as well; one would hardly consider Bude a large town even by North Cornish standards, nor Seaton or Exmouth.  Wasn’t there a CRE portion for Perranporth, another one little more than a village?

 

Much more obscure was Neyland, which continued to enjoy direct Paddington services for sixty years after the Irish ferries had deserted it for Fishguard.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Andy Kirkham

[RJS1977]

8 hours ago, John-Miles said:

There was at one time a Pembroke Dock to Paddington HST. Someone had to get out at Manorbier and open the gates and shut them once the train was through.

 

The Summer Saturdays PD-Paddington (and return) working continued right up to the end of HST workings from Paddington, when it was replaced with a 5-car 800  (IIRC it joined another at Swansea to form a 10-coach service from there). The service was suspended after the pandemic (presumably due to the welding issues on the 800s) but will be reinstated from this month's timetable change.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, SM42 said:

Maesteg - Cheltenham  ( more recent

and an Arriva Trains Wales service IIRC)

 

 

That’s correct, and Veolia nowadays.  

1 hour ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Much more obscure was Neyland, which continued to enjoy direct Paddington services for sixty years after the Irish ferries had deserted it for Fishguard.

Neyland was the original terminus of the South Wales Railway, which the directors had always intended to be a route to Ireland.  The Fishguard adventure was a later ploy by the GW to replace Neyland, which was limited in terms of the size of ships it could handle, with a larger port to cope with bigger ferries, more lairage for imported cattle, and of course to tap into the lucrative Cunard Ocean Liner traffic to/from Liverpool in the same way as happened at Plymouth.  In the event only one Cunarder ever called, Mauretania, on only one occasion, 30th August 1909.  The Liners were to put passengers and mails ashore by tender, and there was never any plan for them to moor at Fishguard.  

Edited May 17, 2023 by The Johnster

[Michael Hodgson]

17 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

..... I thought that was going to link to a picture of 'Duchess of Hamilton' at Butlins ! 🙄

I think she preferred Monte Carlo for her hols

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I assume a similar thing happens nowadays with the TfW Holyhead to Birmingham trains which originate and terminate at International, presumably to keep operating capacities a bit less cluttered at BNS.

 

Mike.

Or are terminated at Wolverhampton if running too late.  The idea is indeed to keep turnrounds out of New Street although going to Internatinal does offer a direct service to Brum Airport as well should anyone want it.

[Michael Hodgson]

15 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Large express services originating from obscure locations

 

That's pretty much the whole of the GWR then.

 

I remember being asked at Exeter "Oi you !   is this train going to London?"

So he got the answer "No, that's only going as far as Paddington.  The train on this platform here will be going to London Waterloo."

[caradoc]

16 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

The responsibility then passed to Arriva CrossCountry for Glasgow-Edinburgh-York services and integrated into their hourly Edinburgh-Plymouth service.

 

Indeed, on a two-hourly basis to Glasgow, as per the previous GNER service. GNER/East Coast Trains/LNER etc retained one per day to Glasgow, since Covid only a handful of Cross Country trains now serve Glasgow. However, back to the OP.... Glasgow cannot by any means be classed as an 'obscure location'!

 

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, john new said:

Possibly a legacy of services to the midlands and north over the S&D being dropped with Poole being seen as large/busy enough for to be retained when the revised routes out via Oxford came in.  Plus yes the ferries.

Not really.  After the S&D closed the few daily through trains to Bournemiuth, including the re-routed 'Pines Express' all terminated at Bournemouth.  Extension to Pool I think only came in interCity days plus the need to get the turn rounds out of Bournemouth Central due to the increased number of Cross Country services (although one or two still turned round at Bournemeouth).  The Cross Country sleeper of course also ran to/from Poole at one time.

 

Neyalnd was in soem resects obscure but had a number of possibly un ique things to distinguish it.  Firsy t of course it had two namres being known for many years as 'M New Milfird in order to distinguish from Old Milford (aka Milford Haven which liesa bit further down the Haven.  sceinf dly it was not the otoginally intended destination of teh South wales Railway as it was Brunel's intention to terminate the line at Fishguard which would provide the shortest sea route from West wales to Ireland.  However the very high cost of contructing a harbour at Fishuguard  and then the Irish potato famine severely damaging trade with Ireland led, 7 years after the original act was passed, to a further act subsituting Neyland (on a natural harbour)  for Fishguard  and powers to abandon the planned route to Fishguard..

 

Thus Neyland - which remained unique with separate arrival and departure platforms - became the terminus for the ferry route to Cork as well as becoming a substantial port for the landing of fish, and for some years was also the HQ of the GWR's Marinbe dDept..  The GWR abandoned the Cork route not long after taking over the ferry company but created its own route to Waterford.  And there matters rested until two Birmingham businessmen created a company to construct a railway to, and harbour at,  Fishguard and create a new ferry route from there to Ireland.  This company somewhat upset the GWR and GS&WR (of Ireland) and both of those railways bought into and eventually took over the venture by creating a joint company to succeed it -  thus the GWR finally constructed. a harbour at Brunel's originally intended terminus for the route.   The new joint company ran its own ferry service from Fishguard to Rosslare and the GWR Waterford service transferred  there from Neyland.

 

However Neyland with its peculiar layout remained the operationally principal terminus in West Wales having an allocation of main line engines (complete with the engine shed lying between the arrival platform and teh departure platform while the cattle pens was similarly sited (There was no lairage at Neyland and cattle had to be walked round part of the passenger station and between the shore and ship using the same gangway as passengers - but not at the same time).

 

So Neyand boasted through trains to london includinga sleeper wxservice (which subsequently transferred to Milford Haven plus  various TPO vehicles such as a Stowage van through to Paddngton and a Sorting Van through to Bristol - not bad fora sation witha su ingle departure platform.  and the mail vans from Neyland long outlasted the new  harbou at Fishguard.   Neyland has long struck me as a fascinating place on which to base a model railway with its unique platform arrangement and relatively short longer distance trains worked by large 4-6-0s together with a lot of freight traffic

 

Like the SR in the south west of England the GWR was rather good at providing through trains or coaches between London and a terminus at seemingly small town.s although some of these trains or portions only ran in the Summer period

[D9020 Nimbus]

21 hours ago, keefer said:

In GNER days, some cl.91+Mk4 KX-Edinburgh services worked through to Glasgow Central via Carstairs. 

As well as using a set that would otherwise be idle, it gave a service from the ECML stations to Glasgow without having to change trains (esp. for those who would prefer to go into Central).

EDIT: I don't think they stopped en route, so although slower than Edin-Queen Street they weren't as slow as the commuter service.

Used this a few times from Newcastle to visit Model Rail Scotland. The timing was not much longer than changing at Waverley to a Queen Street service, then walking to Central. And I almost invariably got the return from Central too. Latterly, only XC Voyagers went that way—much less attractive as they were often crowded on the Newcastle — Edinburgh portion.

 

The GNER (and some later, ISTR) 91+mark 4 sets never had more than a handful of passengers in my coach, so I doubt if the extension was worth it from a purely financial POV.

 

Electrification on the Falkirk High route might allow through trains from the ECML to Queen Street?

[John-Miles]

I did a trip around 20 years ago from Cardiff to Fishguard and return. On the way out we went via Landore and Cockett but on the way back we travelled via the Swansea District line which was a nice treat.

[KeithHC]

Ah the Pembroke Coast express my Saturday morning wake up when we lived in Kilgetty. Especially after a stop at Kilgetty station and the climb to Cold Blow summit. On the subject of the Pembroke and Tenby there was also through services from Tenby to Brighton.

 

Another operation not long distance but part of the Southern network. Electric services into Hastings went through to Ore.

 

Keith

[Northmoor]

43 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Neyalnd was in soem resects obscure but had a number of possibly un ique things to distinguish it.  Firsy t of course it had two namres being known for many years as 'M New Milfird in order to distinguish from Old Milford (aka Milford Haven which liesa bit further down the Haven.  sceinf dly it was not the otoginally intended destination of teh South wales Railway as it was Brunel's intention to terminate the line at Fishguard which would provide the shortest sea route from West wales to Ireland.  However the very high cost of contructing a harbour at Fishuguard  and then the Irish potato famine severely damaging trade with Ireland led, 7 years after the original act was passed, to a further act subsituting Neyland (on a natural harbour)  for Fishguard  and powers to abandon the planned route to Fishguard..

 

So Neyand boasted through trains to london includinga sleeper wxservice (which subsequently transferred to Milford Haven plus  various TPO vehicles such as a Stowage van through to Paddngton and a Sorting Van through to Bristol - not bad fora sation witha su ingle departure platform.  and the mail vans from Neyland long outlasted the new  harbou at Fishguard.   Neyland has long struck me as a fascinating place on which to base a model railway with its unique platform arrangement and relatively short longer distance trains worked by large 4-6-0s together with a lot of freight traffic

For a few years, Brunel intended to build his terminus at Abermawr, about 6 miles West of Goodwick (where the station actually is, not Fishguard).  This shortened the route to Ireland by that number of miles - probably about 30 minutes sailing - and the bay is deeper water, so the Mauretania could have actually berthed, unlike at Fishguard.  Some earthworks for this route were completed and can still be found.  Had this route been built instead of that to Fishguard, the map of Pembrokeshire would look very different; the little village of Mathry would have become a significant town and being only 8 miles from St.Davids instead of 12 to the line at Manorowen, a branch to Britain's smallest city would have stood more chance of being built.

 

I agree about Neyland being an interesting prototype, in fact - biased as I am having been brought up in the county - the Pembrokeshire branches are much overlooked in favour of modelling Cornish branches which often had much less interesting operation.  They were however, photographed by about 100 times as many people!

[hexagon789]

45 minutes ago, KeithHC said:

Ah the Pembroke Coast express my Saturday morning wake up when we lived in Kilgetty. Especially after a stop at Kilgetty station and the climb to Cold Blow summit. On the subject of the Pembroke and Tenby there was also through services from Tenby to Brighton.

 

Another operation not long distance but part of the Southern network. Electric services into Hastings went through to Ore.

 

Keith

In 1985 the midday Newcastle-Cardiff HST went to/from Tenby on Saturdays.

 

There was also a Hull-Tenby/Tenby-Leeds as well...

[Wickham Green too]

57 minutes ago, KeithHC said:

... Electric services into Hastings went through to Ore.

I think they might still do so .... though the car sheds - the obvious reason - are long gone.

[D860 VICTORIOUS]

Reference the 1992 Rose Grove to Paignton service,I photographed this train a few times in Devon.Had to look up where Rose Grove was,didn't have a clue.

From what I remember,and I stand to be corrected,this was a Summer SO service,maybe just six coaches,so I think unlikely to have formed a commuter service.

One of the trains that made a day's photography on a summer Saturday in the early 90's around Dawlish etc. worth the trip...

[hexagon789]

8 minutes ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

From what I remember,and I stand to be corrected,this was a Summer SO service,maybe just six coaches,so I think unlikely to have formed a commuter service.

May well have been, rather like the Tenby extension of the Newcastle-Cardiff.

[Wickham Green too]

26 minutes ago, D860 VICTORIOUS said:

... Had to look up where Rose Grove was, didn't have a clue. ...

Many of us - of a certain age - have fond memories of Rose Grove ........ even if we only had a basic camera ( AGFA Rapid ) to record it. 😉

25/7/68

[icn]

On 17/05/2023 at 17:21, D9020 Nimbus said:

Electrification on the Falkirk High route might allow through trains from the ECML to Queen Street?

Trouble would be platform length, unless they operate the 5-car Azumas that way - mind you the bi-mode Azumas arrived around the same time as electrification and would've solved the same problem differently.  But for Cross Country electrification wasn't an issue anyway, so I suspect it's more about paths and the like.

[robertcwp]

There were once morning peak hour trains to Waterloo that started from Ashtead, simply because the stock had berthed in the sidings at Leatherhead, so the trains came out of the sidings and picked up at the first stop along the route. Until 1967, one morning peak hour train to Waterloo started at Worcester Park.

 

For several years around 1960, there was an Exmouth/Sidmouth-Cleethorpes summer Saturday service, which seems to have been two holiday trains covered by one working, ie returning holidaymakers from Devon to the Midlands and outward bound ones from the Midlands to Cleethorpes, and vice versa on the opposing working.

[Morello Cherry]

I seem to recall reading that some of the Cotswold line services to Paddington started from Abergavenny as a way to minimise ECS working from Bristol.