Siphon spotting

[Compound2632]

This is a crop from a photo on Ebay of a train at Dore & Totley station, probably late 1890s, certainly before the 1901/2 widening works:

 

 

From my limited knowledge of such things, I believe this is a diagram O1 6-wheel Siphon, with arc roof. I would welcome confirmation of this, or an alternative identification, along with any suggestions as to how it comes to be in a Midland train in Derbyshire (as then was, now in South Yorkshire).

[corneliuslundie]

Have you asked John Lewis?

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Have you asked John Lewis?

Jonathan

 

No. How?

[corneliuslundie]

He is the HMRS GWR rolling stock steward, very knowledgeable.

You can reach him at

gwr-stock@hmrs.org.uk 

or you can wait for his new book on Siphons due from Wild Swan later this year. It is a major update and extension of the earlier HMRS book and has also had a lot of input from Simon Castens.

Jonathan 

[The Fatadder]

3 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

or you can wait for his new book on Siphons due from Wild Swan later this year. It is a major update and extension of the earlier HMRS book and has also had a lot of input from Simon Castens.

I finally source a copy of the original text and then it gets superseded.....

[corneliuslundie]

Well, you probably have until August to read the earlier book (which itself is pretty good) from what Simon told me recently.

Jonathan

[BMacdermott]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No. How?

Hello Stephen

 

I have forwarded this thread to John.

 

Brian

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Stephen

 

I have forwarded this thread to John.

 

Brian

 

Thanks; I have separately put the question via the address given by Jonathan and had a reply from Michael Haynes to the effect that it may be a 4-wheel Siphon B01, a designation beyond my knowledge.

[corneliuslundie]

Just to clarify, Michael and John are currently sharing the HMRS portfolio with John intending to bow out soon.

Jonathan

[magmouse]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Siphon B01

 

Is that a typo? Siphons are all 'O' diagrams, as far as I know and according to Slinn and Clarke's book. Looking at the photo, admittedly at the limit of resolution, there seem to be two sets of doors, between three panels (ends and middle) with cross bracing. I agree it seems to be a single-arc roof. That makes it a diagram O2 - 6 wheels, built between 1879 and 1884, with a solitary one in 1886 as a replacement for an earlier 4-wheel siphon (info from Sinn and Clarke).

 

Tri-arc roofs came in with the next lots from 1889, to diagram 01, owing to the Swindonian method of counting.

 

As to why it is in Derbyshire, Slinn and Clarke note that Siphons were not just used for milk - traffic included fish, and strawberries and flowers landed at Weymouth from the Channel Islands. That might be a reason for them to go off GWR rails.

 

Nick

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Is that a typo? 

 

It's what the man wrote. B is a long way from O one the keyboard. Is it some post-hoc designation fore pre-diagram vehicles?

 

33 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Looking at the photo, admittedly at the limit of resolution, there seem to be two sets of doors, between three panels (ends and middle) with cross bracing. I agree it seems to be a single-arc roof. That makes it a diagram O2 - 6 wheels, built between 1879 and 1884, with a solitary one in 1886 as a replacement for an earlier 4-wheel siphon (info from Sinn and Clarke).

 

I'm in two minds as to whether or not one can see a middle axle. I am in contact with the person who bought the photo off Ebay, so once it's in his hands I may be able to get a better image.

 

But my searching turned up a post by @Mikkel in which he says there is confusion over O1 and O2 owing to an error or misprint in the Siphon book, so that what is described on the basis of that as an O2 is in fact an O1, though to muddy the waters further O1 was used twice... This, apparently, leads to the Ks kit being called an O2 when it's an O1 - with three-centre roof.

 

38 minutes ago, magmouse said:

As to why it is in Derbyshire, Slinn and Clarke note that Siphons were not just used for milk - traffic included fish, and strawberries and flowers landed at Weymouth from the Channel Islands. That might be a reason for them to go off GWR rails.

 

Not, I hope, all in the same van...

 

But this is a thought I like a lot.

 

Which brings me on to my supplementary question: what are my options for 19th-century Siphons in 4 mm? http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits4coacha.html gives me a couple of NLAs:

O1 Siphon (6-wheel)1889 K's - Originally whitemetal, then plastic. NLA

O4 Siphon (6-wheel)1896 D&S - NLA

[corneliuslundie]

I have an unmade D&S Dia 05 and O6 Siphon kit. Etched brass with a plastic roof. I put together a Clemison chassis for it (not in the kit) but have so far chickened out of the two-layer etched sides etc. I really must be brave some time. But soldering is not my strong point. According to the instructions the prototype dates from 1903/4.

Jonathan

 

[magmouse]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Is it some post-hoc designation fore pre-diagram vehicles?

Not that I know of. As with wagons, the diagram numbers were allocated retrospectively when introduced circa 1912.

 

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm in two minds as to whether or not one can see a middle axle. I am in contact with the person who bought the photo off Ebay, so once it's in his hands I may be able to get a better image.

The only 4-wheel siphons with slatted sides were the very first type, which were shorter and only have one set of doors each side. It must be a six wheeler.

 

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But my searching turned up a post by @Mikkel in which he says there is confusion over O1 and O2 owing to an error or misprint in the Siphon book, so that what is described on the basis of that as an O2 is in fact an O1, though to muddy the waters further O1 was used twice... This, apparently, leads to the Ks kit being called an O2 when it's an O1 - with three-centre roof.

Not sure about any errors in the book, but it does explain that diagram O1 was initially allocated to the remaining 4-wheelers, as above. When they were scrapped, the diagram number was reused, so the chronology goes:

 

old O1 (4-wheel)

O2 (6-wheel, arc roof)

new O1 (6-wheel, tri-arc roof)

O3 (6-wheel, tri-arc roof)

O4 (6-wheel, tri-arc roof, three sets of side doors)

O5 (as O4, higher sides)

O6 (as O5, add end doors)

Then the design changes to louvres instead of slats, bogie types, etc.

 

Of course, if there is an error in the book as well as the diagram numbering complication, that would be useful to know.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Not, I hope, all in the same van...

Pan-fried fish with strawberry coulis and edible petals - c’est nouvelle cuisine, n’est pas?

 

I’m afraid I can’t help with 4mm options. In 7mm scale, you have the Slaters kits for both low and high roof types, of course. 🙂

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

But this is a thought I like a lot.

Which makes me wonder if the good people of Netherport might have a terrific appetite for rhubarb, causing some kind of fruit/perishables van to come down from The North, provided by the MR or LNWR.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Which makes me wonder if the good people of Netherport might have a terrific appetite for rhubarb, causing some kind of fruit/perishables van to come down from The North, provided by the MR or LNWR.

 

According to a third-rate detective novel I read a while back and am still using as a thing to lean on for my sheet of sudokus copied out of The Guardian despite it being in a foul state because the cat likes to rub up against it on her morning tour of inspection*, Body on the Train, a Kate Shackleton mystery by Frances Brody, the rhubarb triangle was centred on Ardsley and hence the traffic was a Great Northern preserve. (LNER in the book's period.)

 

*Our place is in the bed, to be lain on, how dare we get up?

[magmouse]

Of course - the rhubarb triangle! Actually, an excuse for something GN would be rather good. Did they have something characterfully Victorian for perishables?

 

Of our two cats, one will prowl around the bedroom in a grump, waiting for us to vacate if we have the temerity to stay in bed after the allotted hour. The other one is quite content in the washing basket, thank you very much.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

John Lewis writes:

 

Thank you very much for this photo.

I think I can just make out a central axle box, so it is a 6-wheeled one. With a single arc roof, I think it is a Diagram O2 Siphon - Diagram O1 was originally the Diagram index/Page number originally for the 4-wheel siphons. It was reissued when the 4-wheel siphons had been withdrawn  and used for some of the 6-wheeled ones with two double doors/side and 3 arc [eliptical] roofs. The O2s were older than the O1s!

As to what it is doing in nether Derbyshire, I do not know. My best guess is that it may have been used for the meat products of Messrs Harris of Calne whose business was flourishing by then according to Colin Maggs' book on the Calne branch. A second guess would be railway parcels via Bristol and the MR.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

Of course - the rhubarb triangle! Actually, an excuse for something GN would be rather good. Did they have something characterfully Victorian for perishables?

 

Yes, with clerestories even. But that's a topic for another place!

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But my searching turned up a post by @Mikkel in which he says there is confusion over O1 and O2 owing to an error or misprint in the Siphon book...

 

10 hours ago, magmouse said:

Not sure about any errors in the book,

 

My reference was not to the Siphon book, but to Russell's GWR Coaches Vol 1 p41, where the photo in Fig 42 is described as "almost the same type of vehicle" as an O2, with no diagram number given. It is in fact a 6-wheel O1, as also pointed out by Chris Gwilliam and Martin Goodall in the very useful list of corrections to Russell's coach books in GW Study Group Newletter No 51 (1996).

 

[4069]

The list of corrections has since been published separately as Pannier Supplement No. 1 and is (was?) available from the GWSG.

[wagonman]

On 28/05/2023 at 15:43, 4069 said:

The list of corrections has since been published separately as Pannier Supplement No. 1 and is (was?) available from the GWSG.

 

I must point out that this is a (lengthy) list of corrections to the Russell books – and is still available from http://www.gwsg.org.uk. David Hyde compiled an equally lengthy* list of corrections to Jack Slinn's Siphons book which I am not aware of seeing published.

 

* 2 sheets of closely typed A4

[magmouse]

Thanks, Richard - that's useful to know.

 

Nick.

[Not Jeremy]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

 

I must point out that this is a (lengthy) list of corrections to the Russell books – and is still available from http://www.gwsg.org.uk. David Hyde compiled an equally lengthy* list of corrections to Jack Slinn's Siphons book which I am not aware of seeing published.

 

* 2 sheets of closely typed A4

 

All of David's corrections (and very much more information besides) is all included in to the new edition of Jack's book written by John Lewis.

 

It is in the final stages of editing and will be published this year by Wild Swan Books.

 

It is very pictorial and illustrates well the detail differences between the successive diagrams from the beginning to the end.

 

Simon

 

 

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

All of David's corrections (and very much more information besides) is all included in to the new edition of Jack's book written by John Lewis.

 

It is in the final stages of editing and will be published this year by Wild Swan Books.

 

It is very pictorial and illustrates well the detail differences between the successive diagrams from the beginning to the end.

 

Simon

 

 

 

Thanks Simon, that's good to know.

 

 

Richard

[Darryl Tooley]

There was an article by Steve Banks in the January 2004 issue of Model Rail entitled 'Rabbits to Sheffield' which mentioned the use of of siphons on the LNER on that traffic, which might perhaps be germane.  Unfortunately I cannot immediately lay hands on my copy, and may not still have it.

 

D