4DD 'Double deck' unit

[kintbury jon]

Spent the weekend at my sister's and on the way home, me and the kids stopped at the Northampton and Ironstone Railway. They are a small set-up with a quarter of a mile of useable track, but the track seems to go a little further. They were doing cab rides in an industrial diesel today which was fun. The have some really tight corners, some of the curves look like Hornby radius 1's!

 

Anyway, what took my eye was one of the last two remaining vehicles of the unsuccessful prototype double decker train. It's a very interesting prototype:

 

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=556

 

Unfortunately it doesn't look as good as in the pcture, with a few doors missing but the interior is still intact. It's a real shame that this vehicle will likely rot as I think it would be a fascinating museum piece for people to see. As a volunteer at the Swindon & Cricklade, i'm well aware of the vast quantities of money that need to be put into projects like this (which they don't have), so i'm certainly not having a go at the railway.

 

I'd recommend people stopping by if they are in the area, it's certainly worth a look.

[RFS]

Very sad to see it in this condition. Growing up in SE London I travelled on this unique train many times in the 50s and early 60s. It was always nice to sit "upstairs" even though a bit claustrophobic!

[melmerby]

Wasn't this another example of Bulleid's original thinking on the Southern?

 

Keith

[RFS]

They were designed as an attempt to alleviate overcrowding on the busy SE division commuter trains. But they were not a success due to excessive time at stations for passengers to get on and off. As a result the decision was taken to extend trains from 8 to 10 cars, the benefit to us today being that this led directly to the production of the Bachmann 2-EPBs.

 

The units ran from 1949 to 1971 and good old Wikipedia has the details - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD. They were not compatible with any other SR unit so normally ran as a permanently coupled 8-car train between London and Dartford, the only route they had clearance for.

[RedgateModels]

Any idea why the link is blocked by my companies Websense software as a "malicious site" ?

 

I certainly won't be following it it home either

[Xerces Fobe2]

Any idea why the link is blocked by my companies Websense software as a "malicious site" ?

 

I certainly won't be following it it home either

 

 

I would guess the filter on your company’s profanity filter has picked up on "DD"

 

Xerces Fobe

[45156]

These coaches were at Ashford for a while after withdrawal, and were starting to get a bit tatty then - and that was quite a few years ago - but at that stage, they could have been conserved with a bit of TLC and some money - which they never actually got. Sad to see how much worse they've got now.

 

They were unique in a number of ways to do with the controllers and the braking systems, which were not compatible with the 4-SUB or the 4-EPB which were the contemperaries of these units - there's a lot more published info about them out there, and I am no expert on Southern braking and control systems, although I did have more knowledge of Southern EMUs that I normally own up to on here - but to offer any more info, I would need to delve back into reference material more that 30 years old!

[tetsudofan]

I too rode the 4-DD to work in the mid-60s.....and a few years later purchased the MTK 4-DD kit which is still undisturbed in it's boxes.

 

Maybe one day I'll get someone to build it for me....there's certainly no way I could build it myself.....think one problem would be keeping the upper deck windows in place........

 

Keith

[Fat Controller]

Didn't some of the Ashford ones end up at Sellinge for a while? I'm sure I saw one in the distance when I drove past once.

The site of the former 'Ashford Steam Centre' (Ashford shed, in the fork of the Canterbury and Dover lines) is currently being developed as a housing estate- they will have a magnificent view of the underside of the CTRL viaduct! Not a place to live if you're a light sleeper.

[kintbury jon]

I believe Sellinge is where the other driving motor coach is. From looking at the various information on these units it appears a third vehicle (one of the trailers) made it into preservation but has since been scrapped.

 

I'd have thought a well restored example would be nice in the NRM. Whilst it was not successful i'd have thought people would be interested in seeing the unusual seating arrangement. I guess space is always an issue though, the NRM has a COR, SUB (an older one?) and a VEP coach so the SR is well represented as it is. Would the DD coach be more of a 'star attraction'?

[John B]

I believe Sellinge is where the other driving motor coach is. From looking at the various information on these units it appears a third vehicle (one of the trailers) made it into preservation but has since been scrapped.

 

IIRC (and it's a long time ago) - I think one of the DDs that was stored at Ashford was cut up in the days immediately preceding the closure of the site and removal of contents to other locations..

[pete_mcfarlane]

Putting one in the NRM would prove to one and all that double decker trains don't work on Britain's railways and hopefully silence all those badly thought out calls for them to be introduced!

[roythebus]

The other DD motor coach is still at Sellinge so I believe. I saw it there about 2 years ago along with a collection of steam and diesel locos in varying states of disrepair and restoration.

 

Double deck trains COULD be made to work in the UK IF we had lines built to the Berne loading gauge. HS1, Great Central, new bridges on the WLL to name a few...

[AMJ]

There is some interesting DD stock that SNCF use on push-pull services into Paris from the suburbs. I have ridden on it, will have a look to see if I have any photos. Also they have some DD units that operate on the RATP trains under Paris.

 

The French way to do it is to have end doors that lead to 2 sets of steps, center goes down and one that goes up. Thus the lower saloon is between the bogies and the upper above it. I suppose what the rules are on headroom (for passengers) as to if we could do that within the UK loading gauge.

 

The disadvantage is that only the vestibules will be disabled accessible.

[Fat Controller]

There is some interesting DD stock that SNCF use on push-pull services into Paris from the suburbs. I have ridden on it, will have a look to see if I have any photos. Also they have some DD units that operate on the RATP trains under Paris.

 

The French way to do it is to have end doors that lead to 2 sets of steps, center goes down and one that goes up. Thus the lower saloon is between the bogies and the upper above it. I suppose what the rules are on headroom (for passengers) as to if we could do that within the UK loading gauge.

 

The disadvantage is that only the vestibules will be disabled accessible.

SNCF use double-deck stock, both self-propelled and push-pull fitted, throughout France. I can recommend the upper deck on runs like St Lazare to Rouen, and on the TGVs down the Rhone corridor. They are used widely on some Paris suburban services, but have to have longer dwell-times at stations.

One thing to note is not only is most European stock higher and wider than the UK norm, but it can be wider further down, as platforms are lower. This makes designing double-deck stock much easier, as the centre floor section of the vehicle, between the bogies, can be dropped to give an extra foot or so of headroom. If you look at the DD stock that goes to Gare du Lyon on RER D, you'll see that the heads of sitting passengers on the lower deck is at about knee-level to people on the platform...

[RFS]

Swiss Railways SBB also use double-deck stock extensively. Last year we travelled on one of their trains from Geneva Airport to Interlaken. Very nice to sit upstairs though a bit of a faff to drag your luggage up there too - wasn't going to leave it out of sight! Here's one of the photos I took then of one these trains entering Interlaken Ost:

 

[Burkitt]

Industrial design form DCA, who specialise in railways, produced a study for a new version of the Bulleid double deck configuration and a UK loading gauge continental-style double deck train a few years ago. They can be found in this PDF http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/conf/rail06/pdfs/day1/rutter.pdf .

 

In Japan they have double deck trains on 1067mm narrow gauge with high platforms, so it should be possible in the UK with some clever design.

 

Paul

[floydeeeee]

any ideas if there are plans for the two surving cars?

[montyburns56]

4-DD stunner Eastleigh, 51

 

 

[Paul2410]

Hi, I have just joined RMWeb and my interests are SR EMUs, prototype and model.  I am a member of Twickenham & Distrit Mo0del Railway Club and I am its current Chairman.

 

I saw the thread on the 4DD units.  The 4DD DMBS at Northamptonshire Ironstone Railway is one of only two "preserved" 4DD vehicles.  The other DMBS (from Unit 4902) is in store on a private site at Sellindge, Kent (along with a number of other SR EMUs).  Both DMBS vehicles are in very poor condition, but as has been said, it will cost a lot of dosh to restore them cosmetically to at least "showroom" condition.

 

Paul Raven-Hill

[melmerby]

On 06/07/2010 at 18:57, Burkitt said:

Industrial design form DCA, who specialise in railways, produced a study for a new version of the Bulleid double deck configuration and a UK loading gauge continental-style double deck train a few years ago. They can be found in this PDF http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/conf/rail06/pdfs/day1/rutter.pdf .

 

In Japan they have double deck trains on 1067mm narrow gauge with high platforms, so it should be possible in the UK with some clever design.

 

Paul

To start with the  e.g. JR215 are wider and taller than the UK loading gauge.  (9'6" x 13' 5" to the nearest whole inch)

Try it with UK size vehicles

 

What's the UK roof height under OHLE?

Edited July 24, 2020 by melmerby

[roythebus]

The 4DD car at Sellindge is now under cover, the ownership was transferred from the original chap who died a couple of years ago to a group of enthusiasts. they have wisely invested in covered accommodation and have a very long lease on the land. They've started cosmetic restoration of the car.

 

You can find them on FB, type 4DD in the search bar.

[adb968008]

On 06/07/2010 at 18:57, Burkitt said:

Industrial design form DCA, who specialise in railways, produced a study for a new version of the Bulleid double deck configuration and a UK loading gauge continental-style double deck train a few years ago. They can be found in this PDF http://www.ukintpress-conferences.com/conf/rail06/pdfs/day1/rutter.pdf .

 

In Japan they have double deck trains on 1067mm narrow gauge with high platforms, so it should be possible in the UK with some clever design.

 

Paul

Copy the Dutch/German model, of stepping in over the bogies, and stepping down to low level seating closer to the railhead.

The UK loading gauge is higher than 13’ and most people are under 6’, gives 1ft for clearance above the rails.

if they copied San Franciscos Caltrain seating : Set the seats parallel to the carriage sides rather than in lines down stairs and 1 seat each side on the upper deck (but with 1 aisle rather than 2), leave the rest for standing...

 

Tbh the optimum solution right now is Thameslink...treat the whole thing as one long carriage, end to end, with maximum gangway width, and ram it to the absolute max... you dont need double deck for that.. if they removed the seats they could cram in another 30% too... double deck would only slow boarding/alighting down as people move slower on stairs..

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by adb968008

[montyburns56]

4-DD 4902 Ashford