BR(S) DEMU could they have been developed further.

[Southernman46]

Of course the Hastings Line units participated in the greatest railtour of all time - "The Long Thin Drag" up to Carlisle & back 👍

[D7666]

6 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

Of course the Hastings Line units participated in the greatest railtour of all time - "The Long Thin Drag" up to Carlisle & back 👍

For which I was the SEG train manager.

 

I wanted to do another one - the Long Thin Drigg - out via Shap and back via Drigg........

 

[D7666]

digressing, up to about c.1970 Derby was looking at a gas turbine 'D'EMU; a couple of vague descriptions and an outline sketch appear one time; a sort of AM10 type MU body and powered by RR Darts and EE546 motors. It was not clear form the sketch where the gt would be mounted, it really was vague.

 

One proposed gtmu route was Edinburgh FalkirkHigh Glasgow; the gtmu idea being around the time the Swindon dmu were getting clapped out but before the 27/27 push pull idea came about. Every time I mention this someone has to come along and post AM10 was a "door at (almost) every bay" suburban body therefore unsuited to IC type work. But it was never said the AM10 body was for that route - merely one fact was gtmu was suggested for the route, another fact was AM10 was suggested for a gtmu type.

[Wickham Green too]

Maybe something closer to the NIR 80 class - also a MkII body but with fewer doors.

 

( Incidentally - why didn't the 80 class get AM10 style ends to the Power Cars ??!? )

[D7666]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Maybe something closer to the NIR 80 class - also a MkII body but with fewer doors.

 

( Incidentally - why didn't the 80 class get AM10 style ends to the Power Cars ??!? )

 

Yes and no.

 

Like Mk2 yes, but all not Mk2, no. The resultant train might have looked like that but actually not.

 

NIR DEMU motor coaches ARE NOT Mk.2 construction they are Mk.1. They /look/ like Mk2 but are not. It is a oft quoted mistake.

 

A Mk2 structure could not bear the weight of that engine lump in one place. What they did was the motor coaches are strengthened Mk1 per BR SR DEMU with bespoke Mk2 style - but style only - body parts. Only the NIR DEMU trailers were Mk2.***

 

That is why I commented on the Dart engine under an AM10 was unclear where the engine might go. A Dart might be lighter than a DEMU EE 4SRKT but still a lump.

 

 

*** a similar thing with BR class 210 DEMU. The 210 motor coach is NOT a Mk3 EMU shell, but structurally an HST frame and floor pan with Mk3 style body parts on top. Again, this is because the standard Mk3 structure can't take that engine lump, Paxman or MTU or anyone else's, in one place. ((I have questioned - on forums only - how this planned potential preservation attempt of recreating a 210 out of 455 cars is going to work. Good luck to them if they wish to try, but i do wonder if they have actually looked at original drawings.))

 

 

No idea on the NIR cab ends. But then why does any one type of train not look any other type of train ?

 

One idea was the NIR motor coaches could be used as "locomotives" (presumably back to back pairs) which is allegedly why they had type EE538 motors as used in BR 37s and 50s and not EE507s per SR DEMU. Maybe, guessing, the cab ends had something to do with uses a locos ???? Just a guess.

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by D7666

[Wickham Green too]

37 minutes ago, D7666 said:

... No idea on the NIR cab ends. But then why does any one type of train not look any other type of train ? ... One idea was the NIR motor coaches could be used as "locomotives" (presumably back to back pairs) which is allegedly why they had type EE538 motors as used in BR 37s and 50s and not EE507s per SR DEMU. Maybe, guessing, the cab ends had something to do with uses a locos ???? Just a guess.

Don't forget the some of the earlier NIR Power Cars WERE effectively locomotives with passenger accommodation ( and driving cabs at both ends ) so saw frequent use on freight trains .......... early thoughts for the 80s may well have been along similar lines.

[bécasse]

The NIR trains sometimes worked mixed. I remember travelling from Larne Harbour to York Road in one (during the Troubles too) with a string of container wagons on the back.

[Nearholmer]

Some of the very earliest DE railcars (TBH, I’m not sure whether they were MU fitted or not) in Sweden and Germany were designed to haul tail loads, passenger or goods. In Germany that class of vehicle, which imwas hugely useful on branchlines, was known as a a schleptriebwagen (sp?). It’s a class of vehicle that we sort of missed out on in GB, which if used from the 1930s onwards might have resulted in useful economies.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Nearholmer

[eastwestdivide]

51 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

schleptriebwagen (sp?).

Close enough! Schlepptriebwagen with two P's, schleppen = to haul or drag.

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Some of the very earliest DE railcars (TBH, I’m not sure whether they were MU fitted or not) in Sweden and Germany were designed to haul tail loads, passenger or goods. In Germany that class of vehicle, which imwas hugely useful on branchlines, was known as a a schleptriebwagen (sp?). It’s a class of vehicle that we sort of missed out on in GB, which if used from the 1930s onwards might have resulted in useful economies.

 

I've seen modern DMUs in Poland hauling a tail load - in fact the current streetview of Hel shows a DMU-normal coach-DMU formation (I'm guessing the coach is fitting with the appropriate cabling for MU working in that case): link

[Nearholmer]

41 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

schleppen = to haul or drag.

A word I’m very familiar with, not only from German, but because ‘shlep’ is fairly common in London, as a word to express exhausting, irritating, or burdened walking about the place when one would rather not. I presume that it arrived in London either from German, or from Yiddish. I’ve also heard it used to criticise individuals, as in ‘He’s a right shlep.’.

 

Back to DEMUs …….

[pete_mcfarlane]

15 hours ago, D7666 said:

((I have questioned - on forums only - how this planned potential preservation attempt of recreating a 210 out of 455 cars is going to work. Good luck to them if they wish to try, but i do wonder if they have actually looked at original drawings.))

 

I'm still bemused as to why anyone would want to recreate a 210. It would be a fun novelty at diesel galas for a year or two, but that's about it. 

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I'm still bemused as to why anyone would want to recreate a 210. It would be a fun novelty at diesel galas for a year or two, but that's about it. 

 

 

Because it has more chance of running by itself than a 455 on a preserved line.

[russ p]

A shame the Irish sprinter localikes got cut up as they could have probably been regauged fairly easily.  The power cars could have been used to power 80s EMUs

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

 ... Irish sprinter lookalikes ...

??? .... http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=15376

[russ p]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

??? .... http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=15376

 

I hadn't realised they have conventional air brakes I was thinking they had connector drums like BR units 

[108]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

A shame the Irish sprinter localikes got cut up as they could have probably been regauged fairly easily.  The power cars could have been used to power 80s EMUs

One preserved set (458 set, I think) is in use on the Downpatrick and County Down Railway. 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

I hadn't realised they have conventional air brakes I was thinking they had connector drums like BR units 

Think of them as more closely related to the 455s than anything else Sprinterish ! 

[D7666]

On 03/07/2023 at 17:45, russ p said:

A shame the Irish sprinter localikes got cut up as they could have probably been regauged fairly easily.  The power cars could have been used to power 80s EMUs

By "80s EMUs" do you mean GB EMU built 1980s onwards and mating them with EMU cars to form a DEMu ?

 

If so, the answer is no.

 

Because the NIR 450s power cars were Mk.1 construction.

 

They were not of the Mk3/Sprinter type construction.

 

They had bodies built from Mk3 parts, but the fundamental issue that a Mk1 body is seperate from the underframe therefor liable to seperate in an accident remains. They would not have got through the main line normal TOC passenger stock Mk1 ban, and unikely to have got a derogation.

Edited July 4, 2023 by D7666

[russ p]

8 hours ago, D7666 said:

By "80s EMUs" do you mean GB EMU built 1980s onwards and mating them with EMU cars to form a DEMu ?

 

If so, the answer is no.

 

Because the NIR 450s power cars were Mk.1 construction.

 

They were not of the Mk3/Sprinter type construction.

 

They had bodies built from Mk3 parts, but the fundamental issue that a Mk1 body is seperate from the underframe therefor liable to seperate in an accident remains. They would not have got through the main line normal TOC passenger stock Mk1 ban, and unikely to have got a derogation.

 

I wasn't thinking mainline.  I was thinking of using a power car with say a 455 set on a preserved railway.  I understand they are mk1 based. It would be a massive job as they aren't westcode fitted like the rest of 80s units

[adb968008]

On 02/07/2023 at 21:17, D7666 said:

 

*** a similar thing with BR class 210 DEMU. The 210 motor coach is NOT a Mk3 EMU shell, but structurally an HST frame and floor pan with Mk3 style body parts on top. Again, this is because the standard Mk3 structure can't take that engine lump, Paxman or MTU or anyone else's, in one place. ((I have questioned - on forums only - how this planned potential preservation attempt of recreating a 210 out of 455 cars is going to work. Good luck to them if they wish to try, but i do wonder if they have actually looked at original drawings.))

 

Not quite as mad as you think. If they preserve 455912 and 455913, they will have half a genuine class 210 already, as two original 210 vehicles are within these two units. A third (Driving trailer) is preserved, indeed so far its the only Pep v2 .. class 210/455/317/8 vehicle preserved

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by adb968008

[jim.snowdon]

On 03/07/2023 at 12:28, pete_mcfarlane said:

I'm still bemused as to why anyone would want to recreate a 210. It would be a fun novelty at diesel galas for a year or two, but that's about it. 

 

 

So am I. It's a pointless exercise in recreating something for the sake of doing so. There's nothing that is either notable or novel in its technology.

 

[jim.snowdon]

On 04/07/2023 at 23:16, D7666 said:

They had bodies built from Mk3 parts, but the fundamental issue that a Mk1 body is seperate from the underframe therefor liable to seperate in an accident remains. They would not have got through the main line normal TOC passenger stock Mk1 ban, and unikely to have got a derogation.

Not technically correct. Unlike most, but not all, pre-BR carriages, the body was inseparable from the underframe - its structural components were all welded directly to the frame. There are still quite a few Mk1s running around on the main line as it is - their issue was the lack of locking on the slam doors.

[jim.snowdon]

On 30/06/2023 at 01:10, The Johnster said:

I don't think the Southern Region DEMUs could have been developed more than their original form, which I believe was chosen to achieve commonality of parts with EMUS.  They were fun, but to be honest a bit crude and lumpen, and couldn't have been considered track-friendly.  In a way of course, they were developed, into the Sprinter series of dmus, but these were pretty different beasties, with underfloor engines and equipment.  

In some ways, they were developed further - the Blue Pullman sets were essentially the same technology. So, in principle, were the Trans Europ Express train sets.

[D7666]

33 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Not technically correct. Unlike most, but not all, pre-BR carriages, the body was inseparable from the underframe - its structural components were all welded directly to the frame. There are still quite a few Mk1s running around on the main line as it is - their issue was the lack of locking on the slam doors.

Sorry

You are wrong

The issue with Mk1 arose after the Cannon Street accident with bodies seperating from frames. That is the underlying issue demanding removal of Mk1. construction - not just actual Mk1 coaches. Swing doors (as they are properly called) and lack of locking is a secondary and more recent issue.

The NIR DEMU are Mk1 construction. It was looked at by one of the leascos to see if they could be used in GB.  Not feasible because they are of Mk1 construction.