Mass cull of ticket offices

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

 

Yes, the idea of having 16 staff on the train was an exaggeration, but there certainly should be more than one. A driver becoming incapacitated is a known risk - it has happened on several occasions. Yes, the train then comes to a stand - and then what? You've then got a train-full of people stuck in the middle of a section with no-one to help them.  What about a crash? The most likely person to be killed is the driver (being as they are at the front), so again, in a single-manned train there's no-one left to deal with the situation. Even normally, the driver needs to concentrate on driving - they can't be looking after the passengers as well. 

 

People seem very keen on getting rid of staff, but there are plenty of good reasons for keeping 'boots on the ground'.

doesnt matter how many staff are on the train..
in the event of an issue on a train, usually the first ones to dissappear are the staff, especially if its a packed commuter train or Eurostar.

Given how passengers often treat staff, there is some understanding why they would too.

 

Removing staff from stations wont help, for example in a situation, a unit could open the doors and ventilate for passengers.. but if theres no one to corall them back on then what ?

 

Hence why we see increasing cases of self egress of passengers onto the track, and twitter wars with ToCs.

 

maybe the booking offices could be turned into local fight clubs for passengers to vent their frustrations?

Edited July 19, 2023 by adb968008

[33C]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

doesnt matter how many staff are on the train..
in the event of an issue on a train, usually the first ones to dissappear are the staff, especially if its a packed commuter train or Eurostar.

Given how passengers often treat staff, there is some understanding why they would too.

 

Removing staff from stations wont help, for example in a situation, a unit could open the doors and ventilate for passengers.. but if theres no one to corall them back on the what ?

 

Hence why we see increasing cases of self egress of passengers onto the track, and twitter wars with ToCs.

 

maybe the booking offices could be turned into local fight clubs for passengers to vent their frustrations?

In the event of an incident or accident, staff don't disappear. Each has a specified role, I.e. safety of the train or line. Once that has been managed to a degree that ensures the safety of the public so that it doesn't escalate, that's when the "customer service" kicks in. This is all dependent on how many staff are available and the location. We try not to make things worse. This is our utmost goal. Passengers usually know what's up before we do, through "twitter"! We have to find out the old fashioned way....

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, 33C said:

In the event of an incident or accident, staff don't disappear. Each has a specified role, I.e. safety of the train or line. Once that has been managed to a degree that ensures the safety of the public so that it doesn't escalate, that's when the "customer service" kicks in. This is all dependent on how many staff are available and the location. We try not to make things worse. This is our utmost goal. Passengers usually know what's up before we do, through "twitter"! We have to find out the old fashioned way....

Your lucky,

 

we are all DOO…a 12 car Thameslink in rush hour can easily hold 800+ passengers.

no knights in shining armour come to our rescue.

 

usually what happens is the train gets canceled at the next station, and its every man for himself, whilst the unit runs off into the sunset, hi ho silver.

Those who dont know better / over optimistic, wait for the next train.. only to find its a repeat of their own… wait too long and you’ll see your unit return in the opposite direction resuming its diagram, driver might even give you a wave.

makes no difference if the station is manned or not.
 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

On 18/07/2023 at 13:12, Nick C said:

Commercial aircraft require two flight crew, plus one cabin crew member per 50 passengers - so going on seat numbers alone, a London commuter train ought to have around 16 safety-trained staff on board - instead they often have one...

And your poiint is?   Driver Only Operation of passenger trains has been in place in Britain since the 1980s.  Ir t has been in operation on many commuter routes, often from completely unmanned stations, or stations where the only member of staff is not on the platform since the 1990s if not earlier.  On the WR we even had one branch where passenger trains formed with slam door stock were worked DOO.

 

So, especially with modern communications, what exactly is wrong with a DOO train?   Why does anyone consider it a far worse idea in Britain than in mainland Europe?  It hasn't been found to be unsafe, it hasn't to my knowledge actually ever been responsible for the death of a passenger, it hasn't increased the risk of a SPAD or collision,  and yet some people still seem to decry it.  And they decry it while not saying the same about an OMO double decker 'bus operating on a completely unguided road system amongst other unguided vehicles with no sort of vigilance control or automatic collisions avoidance/mitigation system - and hence involving a far higher level of potential risk.

 

And - being a bit more blunt that 'Andyman' - what the merry heck has it got to do with closing booking offices?  The reasons BR moved to DOO operation had as much, and sometimes more, to do with improving service reliability (by reducing train cancellations) as it did with saving money

[Chris116]

In the last year I was working for London Underground we sadly had a passenger jump in front of a train while I was on duty. All the staff present were helping passengers while clearing the station and enabling the fire, police, ambulance and LUL Emergency Response Unit to get on with their jobs. I assisted two visually impaired passengers walk from West Brompton to Earl's Court so they could continue their journeys. When I got back to West Brompton I was greeted by a person who was extremely rude about his being delayed and the fact that he knew I worked at West Brompton so why had I been skiving while everyone else was making out there was an emergency. Thankfully a police officer heard what he was saying and escorted said person away so I didn't have the chance to tell him exactly what I thought of his comments. 

 

In every severe delay or emergency situation there was always someone who acted in a similar manner and it is very hard not to react in an unprofessional manner. Thankfully what I said in such situations never matched what I was thinking.

[Mallard60022]

About time this thread was culled methinks. It's all getting a tad hysterical and also rather argumentative, OT and has run it's course.

P

[Mallard60022]

11 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

Freight drivers? DOO passenger?

Yes and so what? 

P

[lmsforever]

Still cannot understand the mind set of the mandarins at the DFT  they are incapable of making decisions  that are of benefit to the paying passengers on the network ,just look at the cuts in the East West rail .It started out as a project that provided everything required for a line that would provide routes for a wide range of services, but look at it now a basic branch line that will only provide a basic service and nothing to Aylesbury. The people in charge need to be made aware that they are public servants and their latest project to close ticket offices in favour of mobile phones is a disgrace   and is biased towards one section of our community. Everybody else can take a running jump we dont want to know you .Typical  of the powers that be nowadays ,ivory towers come to mind ,

[david.hill64]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Yes and so what? 

P

You want all of these double manned with staff who have the necessary skills to relieve an incapacitated driver? 

 

If so, on what grounds?

 

Remember, my original comment on this was in answer to a poster who suggested that staff needed to be 'on hand' in case the driver had a heart attack.

Edited July 19, 2023 by david.hill64
additional comment

[33C]

Safety? Always safety. Safety first. (S)afety (A)lways( F)or (E)veryone. 

As long as it's cheap.

Cheap Safety

Dividends. Safe,

Subsidy. Safe,

Jobs. Safe?

[jjb1970]

Arguments over safety are a legitimate but separate argument from closing ticket offices. Closing ticket offices may be undesirable and may push some from traveling by train but I can't see it will degrade safety.

[david.hill64]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Arguments over safety are a legitimate but separate argument from closing ticket offices. Closing ticket offices may be undesirable and may push some from traveling by train but I can't see it will degrade safety.

I think there needs to be a thread about 'what sort of railway do we want?' so that this can return to ticket office closures.

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Arguments over safety are a legitimate but separate argument from closing ticket offices. Closing ticket offices may be undesirable and may push some from traveling by train but I can't see it will degrade safety.

The longer term concern is this is the first step towards further unmanning of stations entirely.

That will degrade a safety response, and by absence and It will reduce customer experience.

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I went to London by train yesterday.

On reaching Hemel coming home there was a long queue at the exit barrier. Very unusual for the barriers to be closed. There were five staff on duty and all tickets were checked. Quite a few people were stopped and questioned about their journey and in some cases were asked to buy the correct ticket. Now comes the punch line............................................

 

They were directed to go to the ticket office window to pay.

Bernard

[Mike_Walker]

On 18/07/2023 at 19:50, rodent279 said:

Which suggests that the real driver behind this is the re-purposing of station space into retail space?

Only if that is possible.  At my local station the only "staff accommodation" is the area that forms the ticket office.  If the staff are required to spend their time out on the platform legislation requires they have somewhere to take a break and attend to "personal needs".  You can't expect them to stand around on an exposed platform for 8 hours or whatever length their shift is.  Therefore the existing accommodation will have to be retained with just the ticket counter left unused.  As mentioned above, the space is too small for any viable retail use beyond a kiosk style operation.

 

As I've said before, this represents zero cost saving apart from, as Mike @The Stationmaster says, a bit of training and accountancy but that will no doubt be outweighed by the loss of revenue.  How long the staff will be prepared to perform their new role is uncertain (but in our local case, I suspect not long) so when they inevitably decide to seek alternative employment will they be replaced?

 

I suspect the answer is simple: no.

 

As for DOO of passenger trains, I don't want to take this thread off topic but I'd ask you to remember that large parts of the UK network, including the entire London Underground, have been working DOO for anything up to 30 years now and there has been no discernible effect on passenger or staff safety in that time compared to traditionally crewed operations despite the hundreds of millions of passenger journeys made.  In fact, I know of drivers who say they prefer DOO to working with a guard as they feel it improves the safety of train dispatch from stations.

[Mallard60022]

10 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

You want all of these double manned with staff who have the necessary skills to relieve an incapacitated driver? 

 

If so, on what grounds?

 

Remember, my original comment on this was in answer to a poster who suggested that staff needed to be 'on hand' in case the driver had a heart attack.

Double manned is what he didn't and I didn't say. Re read his post please.

I'm out of this as you seem determined to go about double staffing in the cab and that was NOT what he or I suggested. Train staff that could access the Driver's cab in an emergency; get it?

Phil

[david.hill64]

4 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Double manned is what he didn't and I didn't say. Re read his post please.

I'm out of this as you seem determined to go about double staffing in the cab and that was NOT what he or I suggested. Train staff that could access the Driver's cab in an emergency; get it?

Phil

So no DOO or single manned freight operations then?

And, for the avoidance of doubt, on rural and intercity services I think that there needs to be suitably qualified staff available for situations where the driver is incapacitated.

Edited July 20, 2023 by david.hill64
Add a clarification

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

You can't expect them to stand around on an exposed platform for 8 hours or whatever length their shift is.

 

It's just the passengers who are exposed to the elements....

 

My local station has a leaning shelter on the Liverpool bound side and a proper waiting room on the Manchester bound side with seats plus a smelly additional shelter.  What will happen when the ticket office is locked out of use for all but a couple of hours a day until that person resigns I don't know, maybe they expect the 'friends of' to come along each morning at 6am and open the waiting room and then close it a bit later.  Or more likely it will go out of use and we'll have to hope the trains are not cancelled or it's a nice day.

[Mallard60022]

13 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Only if that is possible.  At my local station the only "staff accommodation" is the area that forms the ticket office.  If the staff are required to spend their time out on the platform legislation requires they have somewhere to take a break and attend to "personal needs".  You can't expect them to stand around on an exposed platform for 8 hours or whatever length their shift is.  Therefore the existing accommodation will have to be retained with just the ticket counter left unused.  As mentioned above, the space is too small for any viable retail use beyond a kiosk style operation.

 

As I've said before, this represents zero cost saving apart from, as Mike @The Stationmaster says, a bit of training and accountancy but that will no doubt be outweighed by the loss of revenue.  How long the staff will be prepared to perform their new role is uncertain (but in our local case, I suspect not long) so when they inevitably decide to seek alternative employment will they be replaced?

 

I suspect the answer is simple: no.

 

As for DOO of passenger trains, I don't want to take this thread off topic but I'd ask you to remember that large parts of the UK network, including the entire London Underground, have been working DOO for anything up to 30 years now and there has been no discernible effect on passenger or staff safety in that time compared to traditionally crewed operations despite the hundreds of millions of passenger journeys made.  In fact, I know of drivers who say they prefer DOO to working with a guard as they feel it improves the safety of train dispatch from stations.

I have few issues with that, other than the passenger comments on Social Media, particularly from women and lone Travellers on usually later services (especially nights), that do not feel safe when there is NO person on a Train, fewer passengers, and only the Driver.

I'm now off this anyway but your post is informative.

Phil

[woodenhead]

6 hours ago, david.hill64 said:

I think there needs to be a thread about 'what sort of railway do we want?' so that this can return to ticket office closures.

 

2 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

So no DOO or single manned freight operations then?

!

[Mallard60022]

3 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

So no DOO or single manned freight operations then?

Did he or I say that as well?  Leave it out please. You seem to be obsessed. DOO has been demonstrated to be workable but many passengers do not like it. Freight Trains do not carry 800+ passengers. Simples.

P

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 !

Yup, I'm confused too!

Seems obsessed!

P

[ColinK]

When stations are destaffed, the station toilets will close eg Hebden Bridge.

 

How will people who only have cash buy a ticket?

[Mike_Walker]

9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It's just the passengers who are exposed to the elements....

 

I don't think many passengers spend more than a few minutes on a platform unless they are unfortunate and have their train delayed or cancelled.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Mike_Walker said:

I don't think many passengers spend more than a few minutes on a platform unless they are unfortunate and have their train delayed or cancelled.

I'm just thinking back to my miserable trip to Chester last December that took several hours and a lot of it stood on my local station watching trains get delayed then get cancelled and then zip past you without stopping and you're waiting for the next one half an hour later when you've already been there an hour.  In the end we went to Starbucks to get dry and warm up, my wife decreed that day that she would never use a train again.