Mass cull of ticket offices

[The Stationmaster]

A thought has struck me about this tap-in nonsensense.  How does it actually work?  As far as I can tell it is effectively no more than a sort of 'permit to travel' until you either tap-out at your destination or some sort of on-train ticket examination/sales person asks to see your ticket (which you haven't got).

 

It can work fairly well on a fully closed station  network like the London Underground because it checl ks you in and checks you out.  And , very importantly, if for some reason it doesn't check you out it charges you a set fare  which could be much higher than the one for the journey you actually made.  So it has an incentive built in to make you use the system.

 

But what happens out in the big wide world of the national network?   You might, for whatever reason - and there are plenty of valid ones - either fail to tap-in, or tap--out, or both.  Will it charge you for a single journey from Penzance to Thurso if you don't do both or will it simply give an electronic burp and forget about you?  Incidentally I regularly don't bother to tap-in at my local station or indeed anywhere else where I don't need my travel pass or gate pass to open a barrier. But that involves no revenue loss and simply mucks up any record of use of my pass.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

It can work fairly well on a fully closed station  network like the London Underground because it checl ks you in and checks you out.  And , very importantly, if for some reason it doesn't check you out it charges you a set fare  which could be much higher than the one for the journey you actually made.  So it has an incentive built in to make you use the system.

 

With barriers you have to have somebody on hand all the time that trains are running, to assist disabled passengers, those with bulky luggage, deal with faulty gates, tickets that won't scan etc and also in case of a need for emergency evacuation of a busy station

 

Practice at my local station is that it is staffed until some time in the evening, after which platform staff knock off, having opened a normally locked side door to the street  by passing the gates, after which anybody travelling without tickets would only be caught if there were a spot check.   If the barriers are opened for an emergency evacuation, or if you caught a late evening train or if there are no gates (a conventional open station) the system would not necessarily know if you left legitimately.

[BernardTPM]

22 hours ago, MrTea said:

I suppose the correct question would be "via where?"

[MidlandRed]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

A thought has struck me about this tap-in nonsensense.  How does it actually work?  As far as I can tell it is effectively no more than a sort of 'permit to travel' until you either tap-out at your destination or some sort of on-train ticket examination/sales person asks to see your ticket (which you haven't got).

 

It can work fairly well on a fully closed station  network like the London Underground because it checl ks you in and checks you out.  And , very importantly, if for some reason it doesn't check you out it charges you a set fare  which could be much higher than the one for the journey you actually made.  So it has an incentive built in to make you use the system.

 

But what happens out in the big wide world of the national network?   You might, for whatever reason - and there are plenty of valid ones - either fail to tap-in, or tap--out, or both.  Will it charge you for a single journey from Penzance to Thurso if you don't do both or will it simply give an electronic burp and forget about you?  Incidentally I regularly don't bother to tap-in at my local station or indeed anywhere else where I don't need my travel pass or gate pass to open a barrier. But that involves no revenue loss and simply mucks up any record of use of my pass.

It’s interesting that on TfL’s tram network, there are regular revenue checks - noting all the stops/stations are open with no barriers. The usually rather large inspectors board the tram at a stop and then, using a hand held electronic device, are able to check those people using Oyster or contactless payments that they have a valid journey open on their card/device. They remove any miscreants at the next stop to deal with the penalty fares incurred. It gets interesting at stations where TfL trams and trains operate from adjacent platforms as there are separate tap ins - I personally have validated an Elmers End towards London Bridge journey by accident as I was travelling to Croydon on the tram - and thus got charged the max rate!! 
 

Just on this question of removal of station staff, I do wonder if the current crop of politicians are thinking, well Sadiq got away with it on TfL so let’s simply apply the same principle on the railway. Although there are a lot more complexities (not least alternative, cheaper journey routes, rail passes of one sort of another which reduce cost etc etc; group travel), I think it unlikely most of these characters ever get near to a TfL station or other rail station for that matter, or they would have seen that barriers require people in attendance to deal with issues of non working tickets etc etc. A glance at St Pancras International South Eastern in the morning peak will show the vast numbers of people going through from the trains and the congestion caused by the, say 10% of anomalies which occur (it may well be larger - I’ve regularly had valid travel cards fail to activate barriers on both TfL and Network Rail locations, requiring manual assistance. 
 

I really do think it may be as simple as this and it not having been properly thought through. I’m sure there are electronic solutions for most of the issues which could be resolved by contactless and purchase of some sort of plastic travel card. 
 

However these things are never straightforward - who else has arrived at the queue for an Avanti Pendolino at the barrier at Euston and had to wait whilst the two or three poor folk on the barrier have to try and validate electronically bar code tickets on mobile devices, a vast number taking multiple goes to achieve!! 
 

One major issue relying on ticket machines - I took a Sittingbourne to St Pancras Int High Speed South Eastern at around 630 am one day - it was two 6 car sets and packed. All but one ticket machine was out of action and the ticket office was not open at Sittingbourne. I sat in the front set. Now the guard/customer assistant sells tickets on these trains and clearly a number of people were expecting to buy but it appears the chap was in the back set and there is no inter-set connecting corridor. A mob handed bunch of around a dozen revenue inspectors got on at Rainham and between there and Rochester, where they got off, proceeded to hand out umpteen penalty fares - at the time quite an amount when you consider the peak fare, with supplement. This reduced at least one young lady to tears. Incredibly, and one stop after these idiots got off (got off at Rochester, guard appeared at Strood), the guard appeared selling tickets to anyone who wanted one. I suspect the crowded six car set of regular commuters had a very low impression of South Eastern customer service after that experience. 
 

I could only see such instances increasing in a non-manned ticket office situation, especially at busy stations. 

[Mallard60022]

I have decided I shall spend some time at my Station when this is introduced and make some notes on what's happening. Tuesdays are good as that's when the local prison dumps their outgoing on to the Station for onward Travel. They have Tickets and they are almost always Set Travel ones purchased by someone in an Office. However I have often been there when some poor sod arrives long after their Train has departed and they just have no idea what to do most of the time. One chap I assisted and the lovely Woman Staff member that day helped sort was going to Oxford from Retford via London and had to be there to get to the Social Services Office before 17.00

He missed his LNER and had to wait for the Hull Trains service an hour later, arranged by the Staff member. She also told him the best way to get to Oxford from Kings Cross. Think it might have been Marylebone?

It's possible that he could have gone a different route had someone at the Prison Service been arsed to look at his needs carefully. Probably not enough Prison Staff anyway?

He had some dosh, a Debit Card that wasn't activated and an old Phone with no charge and no charger. WE phoned Oxford Social Services for him and they were lovely to him; very supportive.

Anyway, next day I phoned Oxford SS and checked he'd arrived; he had but a SS Staff member had had to stay overtime to meet him as his planned service from London was cancelled and he'd had issues transferring by Tube as he didn't know what to do! 

OK that's just a story and true, BUT it does describe why decent Staff must be available to help, even if it is only that one person in trouble. Also I am sure a TO person would have sorted him better Tickets including a cross London thingy. Hey ho.

I've also seen loads of folk arriving for a change of Trains and not knowing what to do and then, of course, when things go wrong and folk need to rearrange their travel!

Phil  

[andyman7]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

A thought has struck me about this tap-in nonsensense.  How does it actually work?  As far as I can tell it is effectively no more than a sort of 'permit to travel' until you either tap-out at your destination or some sort of on-train ticket examination/sales person asks to see your ticket (which you haven't got).

 

It can work fairly well on a fully closed station  network like the London Underground because it checl ks you in and checks you out.  And , very importantly, if for some reason it doesn't check you out it charges you a set fare  which could be much higher than the one for the journey you actually made.  So it has an incentive built in to make you use the system.

 

But what happens out in the big wide world of the national network?   You might, for whatever reason - and there are plenty of valid ones - either fail to tap-in, or tap--out, or both.  Will it charge you for a single journey from Penzance to Thurso if you don't do both or will it simply give an electronic burp and forget about you?  Incidentally I regularly don't bother to tap-in at my local station or indeed anywhere else where I don't need my travel pass or gate pass to open a barrier. But that involves no revenue loss and simply mucks up any record of use of my pass.

It's never been a proposal for long distance journeys (well, not outside the vague generalisations uttered by Ministers), but it certainly isn't nonsense in the areas where it is in place - including all of London's rail network, not just the tube.

A chap is coming down to collect a small layout project from me this week. He asked about where you could buy tickets for the tube, I was able to tell him that he needs no app, no smartcard, no download, just touch his payment card on the gates and it will all work. That is convenience!

[phil-b259]

53 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

It's never been a proposal for long distance journeys (well, not outside the vague generalisations uttered by Ministers), but it certainly isn't nonsense in the areas where it is in place - including all of London's rail network, not just the tube.

A chap is coming down to collect a small layout project from me this week. He asked about where you could buy tickets for the tube, I was able to tell him that he needs no app, no smartcard, no download, just touch his payment card on the gates and it will all work. That is convenience!

 

It is - but you need to appreciate that when you touch in TfL actually charge you the highest fare they can - and its only when you touch out does it refund you the difference up to the daily cap (which is set as the cost of an 'all zones' travelcard)

 

Now that 'all zones' travel card and that comes in below £20 so taking out the max then refunding at journeys end doesn't cause any issue. By contrast national rail fares can easily be in the hundreds of pounds - and if NR worked like the tube that would be like taking £900 out of your bank account!

Edited July 11, 2023 by phil-b259

[stewartingram]

Back to my days on the Underground, I had an LU issued 'works' Oyster card, allowing me travel on all Underground services for work purposes only. Even my morning journey from KGX to Waterloo was not allowed! The paperwork provided when it was issued stated this, but me being me, I tried to find out where it would work....and found some documentation that agreed with some of these journeys. Some of these examples:

Waterloo-Clapham Junction for a track course via SWT. The barriers at both ends worked.

District line out east - interchangeable with C2c obviously.

Marylebone to the limits possible  - also parallel with some Central and Met line - apart from the obnoxious chap on the Marylebone gateline turning me back

Croydon tram - no probs.

Buses - an interesting one. In particular, East London Line closed for refurb; notices posted said to use the following bus routes.... 1st bus we tried, the driver said NO. So we both got off, moved to the bus behind, no problems. 

I used the buses a lot, as often more convenient/shorter/quicker than the tube. Oyster read ok on the bus readers, (In the early days I flashed it at the driver, later on I touched in). Again on one journey, the driver queried it, then pulled out a sheet with photos of all accepted cards, mine was on there!

One day I had a job at Tower Hill, I decided to return to Waterloo by bus. Route 15, which included the heritage Routemasters. I got on the bus, sat at the front behind the driver. The conductor marched up with his reader, the card wouldn't read. I said to him 'happens sometimes'. He agreed, then sat on the opposite seat for along chat! Nice guy, friendly, he enjoyed the RMs ( I think they were all volunteers?).

The Oyster system worked well for me, I had 15-16 years of it. Odd glitches, thats all. Easy to use, but TfL is a closed system

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It is - but you need to appreciate that when you touch in TfL actually charge you the highest fare they can - and its only when you touch out does it refund you the difference up to the daily cap (which is set as the cost of an 'all zones' travelcard)

 

Now that 'all zones' travel card and that comes in below £20 so taking out the max then refunding at journeys end doesn't cause any issue. By contrast national rail fares can easily be in the hundreds of pounds - and if NR worked like the tube that would be like taking £900 out of your bank account!

That is indeed the reason why tap-and-go isn't suitable for journeys where the prices are higher. It's worth noting that the TfL systems don't ringfence the highest fares on entry. In the case of Contactless it essentially opens the account on your credit/debit card, checking that the card isn't hotlisted. The actual fare is charged overnight once the taps are reconciled. For Oyster, although a debit is created on entry there is scope for it to create a 'negative balance' on the card so you don't actually need £15 or £20 on it just to enter. 
Also, whilst the right to charge a maximum fare if you don't tap in and tap out exists, in practice the back office reconciliation is very good at working out the likely fare allowing for missed taps - as long as you don't make a habit of it.

[Ben B]

16 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

One major issue relying on ticket machines - I took a Sittingbourne to St Pancras Int High Speed South Eastern at around 630 am one day - it was two 6 car sets and packed. All but one ticket machine was out of action and the ticket office was not open at Sittingbourne. I sat in the front set. Now the guard/customer assistant sells tickets on these trains and clearly a number of people were expecting to buy but it appears the chap was in the back set and there is no inter-set connecting corridor. A mob handed bunch of around a dozen revenue inspectors got on at Rainham and between there and Rochester, where they got off, proceeded to hand out umpteen penalty fares - at the time quite an amount when you consider the peak fare, with supplement. This reduced at least one young lady to tears. Incredibly, and one stop after these idiots got off (got off at Rochester, guard appeared at Strood), the guard appeared selling tickets to anyone who wanted one. I suspect the crowded six car set of regular commuters had a very low impression of South Eastern customer service after that experience. 

 

 

I had the same a few years ago travelling into Brum from Rowley Regis. All machines out of action (as they were at the stations either side, Langley and Old Hill) due to a network fault, and the ticket office was closed, sign on the door that it would be manned in an hour or so's time. We were going in for an event, there were footy supporters heading in, some kids going to a gig, so without much choice we all piled on. There were staff on the train... who announced they weren't set-up to sell tickets, but would issue penalty fares for travelling without tickets. Brave chaps. I reckon they only backed down when they realised the angry passengers were quite prepared to force the doors and throw the pair of them off the train at speed. The staff at Snow Hill had just given up and were letting folk through by the time we arrived, and the harrased chap we spoke to just said to buy the singles to get home later when it was quiet, and not worry about our inbound journey...

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, andyman7 said:

It's never been a proposal for long distance journeys (well, not outside the vague generalisations uttered by Ministers),

But that seems to igonore the fact that people h getting on trains don't just make local journeys - they actually travel over longer distances.  For example someon could just as likely making the journey from where I live, as I did, to Kemble.  No need to tap anything to be anble to board the train, here need to tyap anything to get out of the station at Kemble.  The only potential check is what might happen in between - and a ticket checlk isn't always guranteed.

 

So I quite agree - no problem within an area such as the Oyster card validity area but people don't just make train journeys in areas like that - irrespective of what Ministers think or naive Cvil Servants believe.   Take an IW ET coming up through Cornwall once, reportedly, there no ticket offices still open and you potentially havea train heavily loaded with folk travelling all over the place some of whom won't have tapped-in or have tickets so how do you secure the revenue without loading teh train with staff to check tickets (on-train checks in Cornwall in my experience are good but the more tickets somebody has to issue instead of checking the longer it takes).

 

so I still can't understand how teh system would work out on the national network without 100% barrier provision.

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

But that seems to igonore the fact that people h getting on trains don't just make local journeys - they actually travel over longer distances.  For example someon could just as likely making the journey from where I live, as I did, to Kemble.  No need to tap anything to be anble to board the train, here need to tyap anything to get out of the station at Kemble.  The only potential check is what might happen in between - and a ticket checlk isn't always guranteed.

 

So I quite agree - no problem within an area such as the Oyster card validity area but people don't just make train journeys in areas like that - irrespective of what Ministers think or naive Cvil Servants believe.   Take an IW ET coming up through Cornwall once, reportedly, there no ticket offices still open and you potentially havea train heavily loaded with folk travelling all over the place some of whom won't have tapped-in or have tickets so how do you secure the revenue without loading teh train with staff to check tickets (on-train checks in Cornwall in my experience are good but the more tickets somebody has to issue instead of checking the longer it takes).

 

so I still can't understand how teh system would work out on the national network without 100% barrier provision.

I'm not ignoring that fact, all I was doing was refuting those that claim that 'tap-and-go is nonsense' without appreciating that it already works very well in some major locations. These locations already have a mix of people starting/finishing long journeys as well as making local ones, and not in completely closed system either - there are still many 'open' stations without gates in outer London. People still touch the card readers because that's how they know they'll be charged the correct fare - it is not a completely closed system but it works; and if they are going outside the area of the tap-and-go they'll use another form of ticketing.

It's certainly not the panacea for every journey and I have never said that it was. By the way, the GWR proposals are here:
https://www.gwr.com/haveyoursay

They are not saying that currently staffed stations will be unstaffed but that the staff will be on the 'public' side of the counter. There's nothing about making it all tap-and-go ticketing! Obviously there are many questions to answer and I'm certainly not going to say it's the right thing to do without the relevant local knowledge but I don't see plans to have no staff to sell or check tickets in Cornwall. That is why it is so important to check what is actually planned station by station and respond to that. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by andyman7

[31A]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

so I still can't understand how teh system would work out on the national network without 100% barrier provision.

 

I believe they have such a system that covers all of Holland:

 

https://www.ns.nl/en/travel-information/traveling-with-the-ov-chipkaart/different-ov-chipkaart-variants-ns-business-card.html

 

[rodent279]

How would a national tap in, tap out system distinguish between what trains were used, and what class of travel was used?

You can travel Euston- Brum via LondonMidland, or via Avanti, both in either peasant class or posh nob class, so how does the system know which was used?

Edited July 12, 2023 by rodent279

[woodenhead]

32 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

How would a national tap in, tap out system distinguish between what trains were used, and what class of travel was used?

You can travel Euston- Brum via LondonMidland, or via Avanti, both in either peasant class or posh nob class, so how does the system know which was used?

Details details....

 

They just charge everyone first class and you'll have to make sure you're on board first to get a seat.

 

You could imagine a scenario where they abandon first class altogether - they are already reducing the numbers of first class coaches on inter city and some TOCs abandoned first class completely already.

 

However, if only Inter City trains and Cross Country retained some element of first class then the stations where the call could retain ticket machines with all the remaining stations over to single class tap in/out.  Course you'd need to remember to tap out and purchase a ticket if you were going from your local station to an Inter City hub to pick up a longer distance train.

 

So I can imagine a scenario where certain types of train can be used with a tap in/out but some trains still remain with a ticket and booking for a seat.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, andyman7 said:

I'm not ignoring that fact, all I was doing was refuting those that claim that 'tap-and-go is nonsense' without appreciating that it already works very well in some major locations. These locations already have a mix of people starting/finishing long journeys as well as making local ones, and not in completely closed system either - there are still many 'open' stations without gates in outer London. People still touch the card readers because that's how they know they'll be charged the correct fare - it is not a completely closed system but it works; and if they are going outside the area of the tap-and-go they'll use another form of ticketing.

It's certainly not the panacea for every journey and I have never said that it was. By the way, the GWR proposals are here:
https://www.gwr.com/haveyoursay

They are not saying that currently staffed stations will be unstaffed but that the staff will be on the 'public' side of the counter. There's nothing about making it all tap-and-go ticketing! Obviously there are many questions to answer and I'm certainly not going to say it's the right thing to do without the relevant local knowledge but I don't see plans to have no staff to sell or check tickets in Cornwall. That is why it is so important to check what is actually planned station by station and respond to that. 

If it's anything like what has happened round here with the closure of booking offices in the not too distant past under this same iritiative. you may rest assured that those who occupied them in the past will not automatically (or otherwise) reappear on the station platform or anywhere within a considerable distance of it.  Our local station only had staffing in the form of a mornings only (for part of it) Booking Office person - that job went and he's never been seen since.  And he's not alone in that and he still had somewhere in the dry and warm to stand while doing whatever he should now be doing.  And because he's not there passengers no longer get that warm and dry waiting area while waiting for their train.

 

Next time I go down west I'll check out what's happening at our junction station but if somebody extra (in addition the normal one) has appeared in the booking hall or on the platform I'll be well and truly surprised.  Even at times when theh post of the normal one isn't covered.

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

5 hours ago, rodent279 said:

How would a national tap in, tap out system distinguish between what trains were used, and what class of travel was used?

You can travel Euston- Brum via LondonMidland, or via Avanti, both in either peasant class or posh nob class, so how does the system know which was used?

It's London North Western these days, and it no longer has a 1st option.

At Euston there are barrier gates for what are the usual platforms for local services. Overground to Watford plus LNW for further north.

Avanti use different platforms and have on board staff, so presumably uner the new system you could tap in with them on a hand held terminal that could cover the class options.

 

With a general tap in you only need the terminal stations to have barriers. You tap in and it is in your interest to tap out at an open station to avoid paying the maximum fare. I do not see any major problems.

Now that security staff are at many stations I do not see the ticket office staff being deployed in the public areas. That gives me far more cause for concern than the practicality of the technical issues.

Bernard

[big jim]

My lad (19 yr old) was just saying only old people used ticket offices and ‘normal people ’ use apps and the internet to buy their tickets, as it happens he need a ticket for Saturday so i gave him my phone to check train times and book himself a ticket on the Avanti app, he got there in the end after about 10 minutes trying to navigate his way round the app, eventually got the right ticket and train etc and he’s very tech savvy, just not very worldly wise 

 

Had I not been stood over him he’d have booked either a ticket for today as he didn’t change the date the first time or a ticket in the wrong direction on the right day! 
 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by big jim

[ruggedpeak]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

so I still can't understand how teh system would work out on the national network without 100% barrier provision.

The problem with barriers is they also require staffing if they are in operation for safety reasons. And they are also the source of abuse and assaults on staff.

 

There is no cheap or simple solution, either it is a 'closed' system that requires access via 100% barriers (and associated staffing etc) as you say or an open system with extensive on trains checks on longer journeys. Here in Switzerland I have never had a ticket checked (or 'controlled' as they say here) on public transport in Geneva, but almost always get multiple ticket checks on any  SBB service that goes beyond the boundaries of Geneva. Stations are barrier free. Fines are high for fare dodgers, you pay the fare due plus a surcharge which starts at £85 and goes up, and other costs on top. If you don't pay then you enter the debt collection system of SBB and the courts, and their long list of charges makes them look like a firm of bailiffs!!

 

I recently arrived as expat into Gatwick and had to join the chaos/queue for the machine only ticket office at Gatwick Airport Rail Station to collect tickets bought online via national rail website. If ever there was a good example of somewhere needing a proper ticket office, that is it. A large proportion of the customers are foreign travellers and having got off the plane they then join a queue to then go and try and interact with a computer terminal they've never seen before to buy rail tickets. As is quite well known rail ticketing is one of the more [unnecessarily] complex things in the Universe, so the outcome should be predictable. Had to queue for ages watching non-natives grapple with the "technology" knowing it should only take me 10 seconds or so to get my ticket. Lots of staff with mini iPads or something intervening constantly to get people to buy the tickets they needed. I suspect many just wanted to go to London but even that is not straightforward, and the time taken in the queue depends on how long it took each staff member to notice people struggling, get to machine, understand what they were trying to buy then basically buy it for them. The most effective members of staff were the handful who had mobile machines that could sell tickets directly. Far faster than expecting non-natives to self serve. Almost like a ticket office you might say........🙄 Had their been a proper ticket office and some self serve machines the process would have almost certainly been a look quicker for all involved.

 

Then the even more entertaining bit is people trying to use the various tickets to get through the barriers, the row of barriers closest to where you exited the ticket machine area were all blocked off and all the gate staff were busy trying to help people use the self service ticket machines.........

[phil-b259]

14 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

The problem with barriers is they also require staffing if they are in operation for safety reasons. And they are also the source of abuse and assaults on staff.

 

Quite….

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-66142105

 

At least ticket offices had a stout screen / locked door to protect staff and only a fool would imagine they could be put ‘out front’ without more of this sort of thing happening…

[Mallard60022]

37 minutes ago, big jim said:

My lad (19 yr old) was just saying only old people used ticket offices and ‘normal people ’ use apps and the internet to buy their tickets, as it happens he need a ticket for Saturday so i gave him my phone to check train times and book himself a ticket on the Avanti app, he got there in the end after about 10 minutes trying to navigate his way round the app, eventually got the right ticket and train etc and he’s very tech savvy, just not very worldly wise 

So are most of the 'younger people' that say that TOs are not required. He's not unusual in any way. However they forget the large minority of people that just don't have Tech or can't use it or some that won't use it!

This 12% sales that only happens at TOs; what's 12% of the million that Travel monthly (if not more) that don't have seasons/passes or App/Home Printed and haven't used a machine?

From what I read there is still a huge number of folk want and need that human interaction and that won't happen easily on a busy Platform!

I reckon that this idea should be phased in over several years with a widespread education programme run through U3A and that sort of thing.

What MUST remain is the service to the public in the form of assistance and security.  I believ that is why the Unions are so anxious.

Phil

[phil-b259]

22 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

 

I recently arrived as expat into Gatwick and had to join the chaos/queue for the machine only ticket office at Gatwick Airport Rail Station to collect tickets bought online via national rail website. If ever there was a good example of somewhere needing a proper ticket office, that is it. A large proportion of the customers are foreign travellers and having got off the plane they then join a queue to then go and try and interact with a computer terminal they've never seen before to buy rail tickets. As is quite well known rail ticketing is one of the more [unnecessarily] complex things in the Universe, so the outcome should be predictable. Had to queue for ages watching non-natives grapple with the "technology" knowing it should only take me 10 seconds or so to get my ticket. Lots of staff with mini iPads or something intervening constantly to get people to buy the tickets they needed. I suspect many just wanted to go to London but even that is not straightforward, and the time taken in the queue depends on how long it took each staff member to notice people struggling, get to machine, understand what they were trying to buy then basically buy it for them. The most effective members of staff were the handful who had mobile machines that could sell tickets directly. Far faster than expecting non-natives to self serve. Almost like a ticket office you might say........🙄 Had their been a proper ticket office and some self serve machines the process would have almost certainly been a look quicker for all involved.

 

Then the even more entertaining bit is people trying to use the various tickets to get through the barriers, the row of barriers closest to where you exited the ticket machine area were all blocked off and all the gate staff were busy trying to help people use the self service ticket machines.........

Indeed - it doesn’t help that unlike most developed nations because ‘competition’ between TOCs is the best way to lower prices there are a plethora of fares ‘to London’ available which only adds to the confusion.

 

(Granted having services to several London terminals doesn’t help either)

Edited July 12, 2023 by phil-b259

[Mallard60022]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Quite….

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-66142105

 

At least ticket offices had a stout screen / locked door to protect staff and only a fool would imagine they could be put ‘out front’ without more of this sort of thing happening…

Transport Minister? Most MPs? Quite a few so called Railway Managers? 

[ruggedpeak]

There was a similar fuss over the closure of police station front counters, especially in London. This was also to save money and based upon data that showed that their footfall wasn't as high as Waterloo station in pre-pandemic rush hour....

 

The problem, aside from all the practical issues discussed above and the expansion of exclusion it creates, is that closing institutional facilities whether a police station or a railway station ticket office sees the "State" in its broadest sense withdrawing from its citizens and dehumanising wider society and its interactions. This is not a good thing. Closing ticket offices is not just about the railway but about the sort of society people wish to live in. The UK is not Switzerland or Singapore, and IMHO it is a society that needs the 'State'* and its institutions to be present in person, and is all the better when those institutions are visible and present. The UK is diminished by these closures in my view.

 

* by 'State' I don't mean anything Trumpian or Orwellian.

[johnlambert]

On 06/07/2023 at 14:53, Mallard60022 said:

I can assure certain posters on here that isolated and unstaffed  Stations in areas of large population, are a NO GO for a huge number of people and unstaffed smaller stations in built up areas are not places to be after dark or later in the say in Summer. They are just scary places. I know this because locally there have been informal surveys done. Retford Lower Platforms, despite the Staffing on the Main Station and Cameras and the newly installed and well lit walkway to the Platforms 3 and 4 are deemed unpleasant by women in particular. 

Then there are many people who will never choose to use Trains, because of the issues of being in crowds. It may seem irrational but that's how it is. 

The simple fact of having someone staffing a Station and visible during certain times, as with having someone on a Train that is there to 'watch out' for passengers at certain times, are the two main comments that come from huge numbers of folk that are involved enough to want to comment about what's proposed. 

Add to this what many have said about lack of travel knowledge and uncertainty about ticketing, is limiting the number of passengers already deciding that the Train is a last resort. 

Finally, the NHS and the Railways/Tramways/Metros, are probably the two largest organisations that serve the Public face to face. 

Look at what's happening in both those organisations! In my humble opinion they are both/all seen as being overstaffed by Government. Really? I'll leave that there! 

Phil

 

I'd love to show any minister, civil servant or Daily Mail reader, who think that the NHS is over-staffed, just what the reality is!

 

On 10/07/2023 at 10:29, Phil Parker said:

 

Considering the number of times discussions on model shops here, have contributions along the lines of "I don't want to go to a model shop. I want to do everything online!!!!", I think this is funny...

 

I'm glad to be an exception, I try to buy stuff in real model shops and only resort to online for stuff that I can't easily get in the shop.  With railway stations, I'll generally buy my ticket from whatever has the shortest queue.  Sometimes that's the ticket counter and sometimes that's the machine.  But generally my journeys are fairly simple single/return trips with minimal changes.