WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[adb968008]

A squabble about nothing really.

but forms are filled and bureacracy complied with, someone gets bragging rights. I wonder if this incident will be used in the court case or if the court case wasnt happening, if this incident would have either ?

 

I doubt this train is really any more dangerous today than it was last month, last year indeed c1991 when 156’s arrived, nothing has materially changed in this part of the world.

Has there ever been an incident in this operation’s history ?

 

meanwhile in Festiniog a slate train rolls down hill, with unguarded people sat loose ontop of freight wagons controlled only by hand and no loco, and that is safe.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by adb968008

[john new]

37 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

A squabble about nothing really.

but forms are filled and bureacracy complied with, someone gets bragging rights. I wonder if this incident will be used in the court case or if the court case wasnt happening, if this incident would have either ?

 

I doubt this train is really any more dangerous today than it was last month, last year indeed c1991 when 156’s arrived, nothing has materially changed in this part of the world.

Has there ever been an incident in this operation’s history ?

 

meanwhile in Festiniog a slate train rolls down hill, with unguarded people sat loose ontop of freight wagons controlled only by hand and no loco, and that is safe.

 

I suggest the difference is the slate ride has good briefings out lining the risk with the riders aware of them anyway as it is why they have applied to do the run. On the Jacobite et al there are several risks, from a dangling bramble arm tearing skin upwards to potentially fatal and the majority of the pax would be unaware.  Someone did a risk matrix, the obvious comes out as  risk low (falling out/head impacting a solid) outcome high/fatal so it has to be negated. Those of us who traditionally did it may feel cheated but it is the modern risk averse world. It isn’t as if deaths from head impact haven’t happened, albeit they are rare.

 

[The Stationmaster]

33 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

A squabble about nothing really.

but forms are filled and bureacracy complied with, someone gets bragging rights. I wonder if this incident will be used in the court case or if the court case wasnt happening, if this incident would have either ?

 

I doubt this train is really any more dangerous today than it was last month, last year indeed c1991 when 156’s arrived, nothing has materially changed in this part of the world.

Has there ever been an incident in this operation’s history ?

 

meanwhile in Festiniog a slate train rolls down hill, with unguarded people sat loose ontop of freight wagons controlled only by hand and no loco, and that is safe.

 

But for the Regulator it doesn't work like that.  There is long history of open door incidents, some of which have resulted in passenger fatalities, all over the railway network.  As a result on the national network there has been a very positive movement to centrally controlled locking of doors and that has basically eliminated the potential danger.

 

But where centralised door locking controls are not available the Regulator has been left with a duty to  ensure whatever mitigations are practicable to make the potential risk ALARP (As Low As Reasonably Practicable).   As ever should the Regulator ignore or fail in that duty and an incident occurs it will be the Regulator who is in the dock amid a huge public outcry about their inability to do their job etc.

 

In this case the Regulator agreed an exemption on the basis of a mitigation being applied by the operator.  If the operator fails to apply the agreed mitigation they have not complied with the exemption they have been granted.  Whether or not someone falls out of a door is in some respects not relevant but the Regulator would share the blame (particularly in 'blame game Britiain') if that happened and they had not policed the mitigation or especially of it comes to light that they knew it was not being properly applied.  The Regulator really has no choice but to take action if they know or discover that the agreed mitigation is not being correctly applied that is what they are paid to do whether or not WCRC, or anybody else, doesn't like it.

[Michael Hodgson]

38 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Has there ever been an incident in this operation’s history ?

 

 

Concrete Bob came and built a bridge at Glenfinnan but nothing else much has happened since 1745 when the Calmac ferry took a wrong turning and mistakenly delivered Bonnie Prince Charlie to Glenfinnan when he really wanted to go to Scotland's capital.

 

The only accident report on the Railway Archive relating to WCRC's Scottish operations was a sidelong collision at Glen Douglas in 2003 when an empty WCRC train incorrectly advised to be clear inside the Down crossing loop and the last vehicle which was standing foul was struck by an Up train.  They've also had 5 accidents in England resulting in a report.

[stivesnick]

On 08/08/2023 at 23:42, pete_mcfarlane said:

Sounds like they are still going for a judicial review. My impression is that many people think these are a way to overturn decisions they don't like, rather than a way to get the decision checked to make sure that due process was followed. 

 

Correct, Judicial Reviews have to be about the process and can not be based simply on disagreement with the original decision. Given that the ORR is a very process driven organisation it would  be very odd if they had not followed their own procedures. 

 

Nick 

 

 

[Mike_Walker]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The only accident report on the Railway Archive relating to WCRC's Scottish operations was a sidelong collision at Glen Douglas in 2003 when an empty WCRC train incorrectly advised to be clear inside the Down crossing loop and the last vehicle which was standing foul was struck by an Up train.  They've also had 5 accidents in England resulting in a report.

Which is pretty concerning given the size of the company and how long it has bee in business.  

 

Are those "accidents" or "incidents" such as the SPADs at Wootton Bassett and Reading?

[The Stationmaster]

17 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Which is pretty concerning given the size of the company and how long it has bee in business.  

 

Are those "accidents" or "incidents" such as the SPADs at Wootton Bassett and Reading?

I think it's basically reportable incidents - i.e.something considered to be sufficiently serious as to require a formal report to be made to the ORR.  the list of such incidents is extensive and it also includes various pccurrences and incidents in premises e.g. Carnforth.

 

Wootton Bassett was undoubtedly the worst and it alone indicated an appalling, and frightening, level of mismanagement/non-management within the company at the most basic of common sense levels let alone what was required by legislation or various railway operational safety procedures..

[Michael Hodgson]

30 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Which is pretty concerning given the size of the company and how long it has bee in business.  

 

Are those "accidents" or "incidents" such as the SPADs at Wootton Bassett and Reading?

"Accidents" (as described on Railway Archive) at

• Wood Green (Blow back, 3 injured),
• Ordsall Lane Jn (Derailment, track defects),
• York 2013 (photo of support coach derailed one axle, no report produced?, cause unknown),
• Winchfield (Con Rod failure, no firm conclusion reached),
• Wooton Basset (Dangerous Occurrence - SPAD).

No record on the archive for Reading involving WCRC however.

[MyRule1]

This may have been said earlier but the CDL questions is not just about people falling from trains.

 

Over the years I have been on a number of railtours (including one earlier this year)  where during a station stop that was for operational, rather than passenger, purposes people have open or attempted to open doors to ask "is this the train for xxx?". They then don't close the doors. This can lead to trains departing with doors  not fully closed. In the case of the tour this year, which had WCR stock, the doors had all the bolts set so the attempt to open the doors failed.

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

"Accidents" (as described on Railway Archive) at

• Wood Green (Blow back, 3 injured),
• Ordsall Lane Jn (Derailment, track defects),
• York 2013 (photo of support coach derailed one axle, no report produced?, cause unknown),
• Winchfield (Con Rod failure, no firm conclusion reached),
• Wooton Basset (Dangerous Occurrence - SPAD).

No record on the archive for Reading involving WCRC however.

There was report of some sort about the Reading incident but I can't find anything now onlne.  The Driver started away without proper authority while train doors were still open although I'm not sure if a SPAD was involved,  

 

The Driver was clearly not aware of the procedure for  conveying. the train ready to start signal at Reading which was clearly shown in the Sectional Appendix.  So in some respects it had the worrying similarity to the Wootton Bassett SPAD of a WCRC Driver not knowing the road.

[Matt37268]

I believe that there was a case of a West Coast crew tampering with the safety equipment on a locomotive operated by it a few years ago.

 

[Mike_Walker]

Yes Mike,  the train had been given a proceed aspect but the correct right away procedure from the platform staff had not been carried out as the train was still loading/unloading.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Mike_Walker

[john new]

1 minute ago, Matt37268 said:

I believe that there was a case of a West Coast crew tampering with the safety equipment on a locomotive operated by it a few years ago.

 

From memory that was the Wooton Basset incident others have mentioned.

[Matt37268]

1 hour ago, john new said:

From memory that was the Wooton Basset incident others have mentioned.

There was another incident after that involving another loco. 

[Matt37268]

There was also this incident. https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/11/25/west-coast-railways-responds-to-steam-prohibition

[Titan]

Also the in the Ordsall Lane incident WCRC were completely blameless.

[Reorte]

On 10/08/2023 at 11:10, adb968008 said:

I doubt this train is really any more dangerous today than it was last month, last year indeed c1991 when 156’s arrived, nothing has materially changed in this part of the world.

Maybe slightly more dangerous since lots of people aren't used to straightforward trains without buttons to do everything for them and where a bit of common sense needs to be applied about windows, but what's mostly changed are attitudes. Personally I don't share that change of attitude but the rules are the rules and it's up to operators to follow them - and, as I said at the start of this thread, a company that seems to have a cavalier attitude towards one rule, whatever I think of it, is more likely to have the same attitudes towards others, ones I'd very much prefer they took more seriously.

[Nick C]

It's quite crazy to realise that it's nearly 20 years since the last slam-door stock on the main line... (barring the Lymington branch which went on a bit longer, but I believe they had CDL fitted) - there's plenty of people now who will never have come across one outside of a heritage railway...

Edited August 11, 2023 by Nick C

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

It's quite crazy to realise that it's nearly 20 years since the last slam-door stock on the main line... (barring the Lymington branch which went on a bit longer, but I believe they had CDL fitted) - there's plenty of people now who will never have come across one outside of a heritage railway...

The same goes for putting a steam engine in the front, except that it's more than 50 years ago.

[Nick C]

45 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The same goes for putting a steam engine in the front, except that it's more than 50 years ago.

True, but the people actually dealing with the loco are trained in how to do so, wheras the punters trying to get on or off the train aren't! It's hard for us to realise as enthusiasts, but if someone has never come across a slam door train, then they'd probably not be aware that it's possible to open the door without there being a platform next to it.

[jjb1970]

Mrs JJB genuinely didn't have a clue how to open the doors of a Mk.3 coach and was gobsmacked when I did a 'watch and learn' demonstration of pulling the door window down and using the door handle on the outside of the coach. She is from acountry many British people probably still look down on (assuming they've heard of Indonesia) yet I don't think she'd ever seen anything quite so primitive. It used to amuse me when many of my rail enthusiast friends would laugh at foreign visitors getting stuck because they couldn't figure out how to open the doors, it never struck then to wonder how much those same foreigners must have been laughing at us for sticking with such a backward door arrangement.

[johnofwessex]

Ditto oil lamps in signals, the only other country still doing it was Albania

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

Ditto oil lamps in signals, the only other country still doing it was Albania

Are there any left on the national network I wonder?

[Nick C]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Are there any left on the national network I wonder?

There aren't even many on heritage lines as I understand it - mostly replaced with LEDs to avoid the need for working at height on a regular basis.

[Michael Hodgson]

19 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Are there any left on the national network I wonder?

More likely on level crossing gates I suspect.