WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[pete_mcfarlane]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

They made the decision to not exceed 25mph on the Esk Valley Line so they are exempt from requiring secondary door locking, they don't actually need to use the SDL bolts but they do anyway to deter the casual cretin.

When I went to Whitby by NYMR they make you queue up for the return journey. In front of me was a coach party (elderly UK punters), and the tour guide was patiently explaining to them 456 times that they needed to get off at whatever the Harry Potter station was, where the coach would meet them, and to watch out for the big signs at the end of the platform telling them what station you were pulling in to.

 

The last bit seemed especially confusing to some of them. So locking punters like that in cages a nice comfy Mk1 is probably a good idea. 

[APOLLO]

Doors to manual Joe !!!!!!

 

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

How does speed impact a passenger opening a door ?

Even at 5mph, if you open a door and egress to a tunnel wall, or off a viaduct your outcome isnt good.

 

 

 

This is not in dispute - but there is quite a lot of pressure to not unduly burden the Heritage railway sector which simply doesn't have the resources necessary to implement many of the things required with respect to National Rail infrastructure and in many cases operate coaches even older than Mk1s.

 

Now you could argue that charter trains are also of an economic benefit (and they are to an extent - particularly Jacobite style setups) but overall they are not quite the linchpin Heritage Railways are. After all its still possible to take a ride between Fort William and Malaig even if the Jacobite doesn't happen where as if the NYMR goes bust then its not as though there is another way to take a ride across the moor s by train.

 

There are also factors like most Heritage railways are single track so the chances of someone coming into contact with a train heading the other way are less which can be bought into play.

 

Therefore as 25mph is the de-facto limit for Heritage Railways it becomes a useful dividing line between things being required and things not being required. That doesn't just apply to door locks - things like TPWS are also seen to be needed once you go above the magic 25mph threshold even though the 'risk' of a SPAD doesn't suddenly vanish below that sepeed

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

The chance of 1 human making an error is greater than a collective of 20.

 

However by concentrating everything in one place it becomes easier to link into something else.

 

So, as I outlined if you want to have your CDL integrated with the braking system (as occurs on every train used by National Rail TOCs)  you have to link the two on every single coach which increases costs.

 

If on the other hand CDL operation is concentrated in the hands of one person (i.e. the Guard in their gaurds van) then you only need to link the CDL to the braking system on that one single coach and it still immobilises the train.

 

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

From what ive seen of onboard stewards, distracting them isnt easy and they are comfortable throwing their weight around, which is why i’m surprised this has become an issue up there.

 

I suspect therein lies the issue - WCR are not employing enough Stewards!

 

If you have only one or two Stewards on board the train then they are not going to be able to (10 watch every single door (and droplight for window hangers) all the time and (2) be in a position to unlock ever door at once when the train rives at a station (which means that they may end up either telling passengers to unlock the doors themselves or passengers just do it before the Steward can get round to a particular door.

 

To comply with the ORRs instructions on a 7 coach train is going to need 6 / Stewards (assuming each Steward is charged with the 4 doors / two vestibules where the coaches are coupled together and all other doors are locked out of use)

 

Also if they are to do their job properly those Stewards must NOT be involved in customer service like trying to sell souvenirs / food / drink to passengers en-route.

 

So if you assume maybe 4 other on train staff to do that you are looking at around 10 Stewards MINIMUM per train - which is going to cost a fair bit in wages and accommodation (assuming they are not all locals specifically trained up for the task).

 

Fit CDL (plus the bars like LSL have done which hinder the ability to lean out of the window)  and you can probably halve the number of Stewards required meet the ORR requirements....

Edited July 26, 2023 by phil-b259

[SZ]

Why not run the train at 25mph and dispense with the locking requirement.

[phil-b259]

31 minutes ago, SZ said:

Why not run the train at 25mph and dispense with the locking requirement.

 

Because the West Highalnd line is not a Heritage railway!

 

In case you had forgotten let me remind you its PRIMARY role is part of the national rail network hosting regular Scotrail trains throughout the day.

 

Given the single track nature of the route it is necessary for the jacobite to exceed 25mph so it does not get in the way of regular Scotrail trains and can arrive promptly at one of the relatively few passing loops the line has so as to allow them to pass.

 

(The portion of the Esk valley line the NYMR runs over is much shorter than the West Highand line) and so it doesn't cause any delay to National rail services).

[SZ]

56 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

In case you had forgotten let me remind you its PRIMARY role is part of the national rail network hosting regular Scotrail trains throughout the day.

 

Fifty miles with four trains per day each way doing 45mph maximum, there will be paths between this intensive service.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by SZ

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because the West Highalnd line is not a Heritage railway!

 

 

there is a very good argument that it may do better as a heritage railway.

 

Looking at the schedule, and demand, they could add in a 3rd daily, and consider a year round service with at least 1 a day.

 

Maybe consider using the Queen of Scots set and introduce a dining option as an evening train.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by adb968008

[Bernard Lamb]

7 hours ago, SZ said:

 

Fifty miles with four trains per day each way doing 45mph maximum, there will be paths between this intensive service.

 

But almost certainly not at the time that people want to make the trip.

Why do you feel a need to come on here and stir things up?

Bernard

[TomJ]

It may surprise some visitors that the Highlands isn’t actually just a theme park for tourists. Real people actually live and work there. Many use the train to get to school, appointments, the ferry etc. A heritage operation wouldn’t help them

 

The reason Chris Green and Scotrail trailed the steam service back in 1984 was to actually help the viability of the Mallaig line

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, SZ said:

 

Fifty miles with four trains per day each way doing 45mph maximum, there will be paths between this intensive service.

 

 

I don't have the inclination to draw up a timetable graph but I suspect that the constraints of this line (single track, few passing places, simplified signalling) means that there will not be many spare paths available.

 

I had not been aware of Chris Green's involvement. Typical Green initiative to find ways of doing something rather than finding reasons not to do something. A great man.

 

I have done some risk assessment work. We had to do one each year to get our government grant even though we were in a far less risky environment than a railway. I am quite surprised that operations like this (and the heritage lines) have got away with so many risky activities for so long. One obvious example with the Jacobite is limited visibility running tender first at speed over such a distance.

[SZ]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

But almost certainly not at the time that people want to make the trip.

Why do you feel a need to come on here and stir things up?

Bernard

 

Stirring things up? Has the 25mph idea even been explored?

[adb968008]

if it help the viability of the highlands, then surely its a win for the locals ?

or is it a case of the state can subsidize my own line for my locals only use ?

 

Or maybe “give us your money and go away” ?

 

To me the line has potential. The locals should be embracing it, its money to them afterall.

if not, then let them pay for keeping it.

 

I do think as a heritage railway it has more potential, than as is.

 

nothing prevents locals using it, or having local rates, even access to national ticketing, indeed Scotrail could still run its own trains.. this is 2023 not 1953.

 

it may have a lot more potential in the private sector, quite a lot of lines nationwide could do, and a cash strapped dft may think of this as a way of offloading several remote branches allowing them to explore potential.

Just needs creative minds bigger than the naysayers and empire protectors.

Edited July 27, 2023 by adb968008

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Timings for the steam trains are pretty relaxed, at 110 minutes for 41 miles, and there probably is scope to have enforced 25 mph running with slightly earlier departures if everything works perfectly, but I expect the relaxed timings are to provide plenty of scope for recovery, and this would be lost if the steam trains had no scope for making up time.

 

As far as I am aware, there are only two intermediate passing loops, at Glenfinnan and Arisaig. Fort William to Glenfinnan and Glenfinnan to Arisaig are both over 30 minutes by service train. There are no spare up paths between the 14:10 Jacobite and the 18:15 service train:

The 14:10 Jacobite arrives in Fort William 16 minutes before the 16:19 down service train departs.

The 16:05 up service train crosses the 16:19 down at Glenfinnan.

The 17:00 up Jacobite crosses the 16:19 down at Arisaig

The 18:15 up service train leaves Glenfinnan 12 minutes after the 17:00 up Jacobite arrives at Fort William (this is only significant if there isn't a block post between Fort William and Glenfinnan).

 

However, a 25 mph limit is probably a red herring anyway. We don't know what WCR's risk assessment was based on, and speed might have had nothing to do with it. Both ORR and RAIB seem to be increasingly uneasy about doors not being centrally locked, and RAIB addressed an Urgent Safety Advice specifically to heritage railways earlier this year, following an injury involving a stationary train where part of the train was off the platform.

[Reorte]

The "it's not a heritage railway" line sounds more like some people have an axe to grind than trying to make any sort of valid point. It's a railway, that's it. Does it actually matter why anyone buys a ticket for it on any particular train that runs there? No-one asks anyone travelling to Mallaig on the regular service if they're a local or a tourist, they're just another paying passenger. Of course the practicalities of timetabling etc. need to be taken in to account, but as far as I'm concerned at the end of the day if people are using it for whatever reason on whatever train that's all to the well and good, and what keeps it open.

[SZ]

Fort William

15 miles

Viaduct

1 mile

Loop

16 miles

Loop

8 miles

Mallaig

 

Service trains journey time is 1.5 hours so average speed is not much more than 25mph anyway

 

Signalling is RETB so no restrictions there, it's all down to the trackwork.

 

It must be doable.

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by SZ

[Northmoor]

Are we seriously discussing changing the whole operational concept of the West Highland Line, just because ONE operator hasn't fitted some locks to their train doors or employed some stewards?

As for operating slower, if your car's MOT tester identifies your brakes as unsatisfactory, they don't pass you car but say you mustn't exceed 30mph, do they?  You either meet the legal threshold, or you don't.

[SZ]

14 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Are we seriously discussing changing the whole operational concept of the West Highland Line, just because ONE operator hasn't fitted some locks to their train doors or employed some stewards?

As for operating slower, if your car's MOT tester identifies your brakes as unsatisfactory, they don't pass you car but say you mustn't exceed 30mph, do they?  You either meet the legal threshold, or you don't.

 

What change in operational concept? It's the steam train timings that should be explored, not the service trains (which are tied to the ferries). 

 

No heritage operation meets the 'MOT'. Close them all.

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by SZ

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I don't have the inclination to draw up a timetable graph but I suspect that the constraints of this line (single track, few passing places, simplified signalling) means that there will not be many spare paths available.

 

I had not been aware of Chris Green's involvement. Typical Green initiative to find ways of doing something rather than finding reasons not to do something. A great man.

 

I have done some risk assessment work. We had to do one each year to get our government grant even though we were in a far less risky environment than a railway. I am quite surprised that operations like this (and the heritage lines) have got away with so many risky activities for so long. One obvious example with the Jacobite is limited visibility running tender first at speed over such a distance.

 

IIRC Chris Green was head of Scotrail for a while - hence the Scotrail branding appearing on everything. 

 

[Covkid]

31 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Are we seriously discussing changing the whole operational concept of the West Highland Line, just because ONE operator hasn't fitted some locks to their train doors or employed some stewards?

As for operating slower, if your car's MOT tester identifies your brakes as unsatisfactory, they don't pass you car but say you mustn't exceed 30mph, do they?  You either meet the legal threshold, or you don't.

 

23 minutes ago, SZ said:

What change in operational concept? It's the steam train timings that should be explored, not the service trains (which are tied to the ferries). 

 

No heritage operation meets the 'MOT'. Close them all.

 

I sense you are being provocative "SZ" - which is your choice.  But as has been explained, the West Highland lines are a working transport network and tourist trains are only part of the custom, and generally only parts of the year.  

[Reorte]

50 minutes ago, SZ said:

Fort William

15 miles

Viaduct

1 mile

Loop

16 miles

Loop

8 miles

Mallaig

 

Service trains journey time is 1.5 hours so average speed is not much more than 25mph anyway

 

Signalling is RETB so no restrictions there, it's all down to the trackwork.

 

It must be doable.

 

Average speed and top speed are rather different things. Run the trains at a top speed of 25 mph and the journey will be rather longer than 1.5 hours.

 

RETB works on fixed block locations, and in any case there's probably not much point in adding more without more passing loops. And adding more passing loops is an expense that I'd be very surprised if it could be justified.

[ruggedpeak]

Thanks to Reorte for explaining  the concept of average speed. No one is going to redesign the WHL for the sake of some poorly run steam trains. Tourists will travel the line with or without a steam loco.

 

Either WCRC meet the requirements for full railway operation (as against heritage lines) or they don't and they don't run the trains. The bigger issue is the reputational damage this does to the wider heritage sector due to one company, at a time when many heritage lines are struggling financially. Neither Scotrail nor Network Rail, or indeed the ORR, will have appetite for spending their limited time and money trying to facilitate a rail operator who has decided they can't or won't comply with the requirements to operate. And if one heritage outfit takes the p1ss at a time when the ORR appears less than favourably disposed to heritage operations it will not end well for the sector. There have been a number of collisions and incidents on heritage lines in recent years and I can sympathise with a rail safety professional wondering why it is granting exemptions etc to a sector that keeps breaking the rules and causing problems on the proper railway.

 

It should also be noted that any profit making heritage/steam etc railway or operator that employs people is subject to the full extent of safety law, the only heritage operations that have partial exemptions are those entirely run by volunteers. WCRC is definitely not in that category.

 

https://www.orr.gov.uk/about/who-we-work-with/railway-networks/minor-heritage-railways

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, SZ said:

Why not run the train at 25mph and dispense with the locking requirement.

Simple mathematics. - yes , it really is simple. 

1. Running at much lower maximum speed will extend running times.

2.  Extended running times means the train will not make their existing booked crossings with other trains which in turn means looking for different paths - which still might not work because of the increase in journey time.

2. Extended journey time means extended cycle times which might destroy the balances needed to run the present number of steam hauled trains or increase crewing costs.  

3.The steam train trip takes long enough as it is and an extended journey might not be acceptable to some passengers.  Also extended journey times might not be commercially acceptable to tour operators using road connections where the train ride is only part of their plan for the day.

 

And of curse the WHE is part of the Scotrail network and runs in connection with it;  not wholly as a standalone railway .   So messing up its trainplan doesn't sound like a very good idea although amateurs might have different ideas.

 

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Are we seriously discussing changing the whole operational concept of the West Highland Line, just because ONE operator hasn't fitted some locks to their train doors or employed some stewards?

As for operating slower, if your car's MOT tester identifies your brakes as unsatisfactory, they don't pass you car but say you mustn't exceed 30mph, do they?  You either meet the legal threshold, or you don't.

Surely we aren't taking the idea seriously?   Nobody in their right mind would do that!

[SZ]

Well I've still not seen it explored beyond 'can't do' so I'll leave you all to it.

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by SZ

[The Stationmaster]

16 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Thanks to Reorte for explaining  the concept of average speed. No one is going to redesign the WHL for the sake of some poorly run steam trains. Tourists will travel the line with or without a steam loco.

 

Either WCRC meet the requirements for full railway operation (as against heritage lines) or they don't and they don't run the trains. The bigger issue is the reputational damage this does to the wider heritage sector due to one company, at a time when many heritage lines are struggling financially. Neither Scotrail nor Network Rail, or indeed the ORR, will have appetite for spending their limited time and money trying to facilitate a rail operator who has decided they can't or won't comply with the requirements to operate. And if one heritage outfit takes the p1ss at a time when the ORR appears less than favourably disposed to heritage operations it will not end well for the sector. There have been a number of collisions and incidents on heritage lines in recent years and I can sympathise with a rail safety professional wondering why it is granting exemptions etc to a sector that keeps breaking the rules and causing problems on the proper railway.

 

It should also be noted that any profit making heritage/steam etc railway or operator that employs people is subject to the full extent of safety law, the only heritage operations that have partial exemptions are those entirely run by volunteers. WCRC is definitely not in that category.

 

https://www.orr.gov.uk/about/who-we-work-with/railway-networks/minor-heritage-railways

As I explained previously there is huge range of safety related regulations and law which apply to S all heritage/leisure railways (above the minimum gauge stup ipulated in some legislation.  But in addition certain law still applies to all such railways irrespective of gauge.

 

Just look at the links I gave to see what has happened in terms of enforcement in respect of things, such as workshops and buildings, not directly related to train movements.