WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[Mark Saunders]

28 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

It's not possible to look out of a side window on some of the modern traction as there isn't one!

 

The rot set in with the introduction of the MK lll stock.

[woodenhead]

WCR still fighting 'the man', it must be costing them almost as much to fight this as it would to actually fit the train with doorlocks like everyone else has.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67552056

[locoholic]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

WCR still fighting 'the man', it must be costing them almost as much to fight this as it would to actually fit the train with doorlocks like everyone else has.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67552056

Not everyone else has - heritage lines don't have centralised locking, yet. I fear it's only a matter of time, though.

 

The process of legislating for stupidity has a long way to go still.

[Bon Accord]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

WCR still fighting 'the man', it must be costing them almost as much to fight this as it would to actually fit the train with doorlocks like everyone else has.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-67552056

 

As far as I'm aware amongst the 'heritage' operators only LSL has fitted CDL to their coaches. Everyone else has an exemption, at least for the moment.

[Ray H]

Slightly off-topic but . . . 

 

Where do some of the narrow gauge and miniature railways stand with regard to CDL?

 

Whilst I doubt many will reach 25mph, several lack doors by using chains across doorways and the presence of semi open sides in lieu of windows and, possibly, some limitations on lineside hedge trimming, present a not completely different situations.

[Wheatley]

CDL only applies on the national network (ie Network Rail). What other railways do is between them, their Light Railway (or Transport & Works) Order, and the ORR.

 

Standard gauge heritage railways will have a Safety Management Systemagreed with ORR,  I'm not sure how small the railway can get before it (legally)  becomes a fairground ride rather than a piece of transport infrastructure. 

[ngtrains.com]

53 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

I'm not sure how small the railway can get before it (legally)  becomes a fairground ride rather than a piece of transport infrastructure. 

Certainly at some point it was between 15” & 12 1/4” as that was the justification for the narrower gauge. I expect that ‘loophole’ has been closed now.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

26 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Standard gauge heritage railways will have a Safety Management Systemagreed with ORR,  I'm not sure how small the railway can get before it (legally)  becomes a fairground ride rather than a piece of transport infrastructure.

I don't know about legal status, but the ORR publish a list of railways exempt from ROGS (The Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006) here: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/rogs-exclusion-approved-list.pdf

 

Looking at the list, most of these are undoubtedly railways regulated by ORR, but there appears to be a minimum gauge of 10". Paignton Zoo's Jungle Express (10¼") is included but Lakeshore (9½") is not. The 10" to 15" bracket omits loops within public parks, such as the 10¼" line at Cassiobury Park in Watford, but once you get up to 2' gauge, even the smallest outfit seems to be included.

 

The Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway (15" gauge) is regulated by the ORR and needs a Safety Management System, but it is exempt from ROGS, and in this respect is the same as standard gauge heritage railways,

[pete_mcfarlane]

3 hours ago, Ray H said:

Slightly off-topic but . . . 

 

Where do some of the narrow gauge and miniature railways stand with regard to CDL?

 

Whilst I doubt many will reach 25mph, several lack doors by using chains across doorways and the presence of semi open sides in lieu of windows and, possibly, some limitations on lineside hedge trimming, present a not completely different situations.

The Ffestiniog locks you in to their compartment carriages before departure. I have a  vague memory that some of the other Welsh NG railways do this as well - there are a lot of limited clearances from cutting sides etc. 

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I don't know about legal status, but the ORR publish a list of railways exempt from ROGS (The Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006) here: https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/rogs-exclusion-approved-list.pdf

 

Looking at the list, most of these are undoubtedly railways regulated by ORR, but there appears to be a minimum gauge of 10". Paignton Zoo's Jungle Express (10¼") is included but Lakeshore (9½") is not. The 10" to 15" bracket omits loops within public parks, such as the 10¼" line at Cassiobury Park in Watford, but once you get up to 2' gauge, even the smallest outfit seems to be included.

 

The Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway (15" gauge) is regulated by the ORR and needs a Safety Management System, but it is exempt from ROGS, and in this respect is the same as standard gauge heritage railways,

 

There's a note in the middle of there:

 

Note 2: All infrastructure and vehicles wth a track gauge of 350mm or under are considered as automatically excluded from scope through blanket exemption in ROGS, even though some such rail systems might be included in the list below.

 

I note also that the Swanage and NYMR have their own category for working over NR metals.

 

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The Ffestiniog locks you in to their compartment carriages before departure. I have a  vague memory that some of the other Welsh NG railways do this as well - there are a lot of limited clearances from cutting sides etc. 

 

I believe the Tallyllyn do too, though their new coaches have a novel double-action lock which looks pretty good - a 90 degree turn of the handle to release the bolt, then a further 45 for the traditional slam-door catch.

[john new]

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The Ffestiniog locks you in to their compartment carriages before departure. I have a  vague memory that some of the other Welsh NG railways do this as well - there are a lot of limited clearances from cutting sides etc. 

Someone has done a risk assessment at national level and obviously the minor events (although rare) are more common hence the mitigation measures introduced by these rules. A logical outcome of the process.

 

That said, personally I find the whole idea of fully locked carriages, be that by modern technology or analogue physical key, something I don't like. Accidents are rare but locked carriages have led to fatalities in past accidents. It doesn't stop me riding on trains but the use of physical keys and bolts isn't something I am particularly comfortable with when I do and notice it as with the obvious key/slide bolt lockings. 

[Reorte]

54 minutes ago, john new said:

That said, personally I find the whole idea of fully locked carriages, be that by modern technology or analogue physical key, something I don't like. Accidents are rare but locked carriages have led to fatalities in past accidents. It doesn't stop me riding on trains but the use of physical keys and bolts isn't something I am particularly comfortable with when I do and notice it as with the obvious key/slide bolt lockings. 

 

The safety question then becomes which results in fewer fatalities. There's always the chance that reducing one risk will create a new one, yet the overall result is lower risk (zero never being achievable in practice).

 

Personally neither risk puts me off using trains because they're low enough that I'm not worried in the slightest about my life in either situation (I'd rather travel on the unlocked train, but not due to perceiving it to be safer).

[pete_mcfarlane]

2 hours ago, john new said:

That said, personally I find the whole idea of fully locked carriages, be that by modern technology or analogue physical key, something I don't like. Accidents are rare but locked carriages have led to fatalities in past accidents. It doesn't stop me riding on trains but the use of physical keys and bolts isn't something I am particularly comfortable with when I do and notice it as with the obvious key/slide bolt lockings. 

I seem to remember a few train fires where people couldn't get out because the doors were locked - this is the nastiest one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versailles_rail_accident

 

[Stoke West]

17 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I seem to remember a few train fires where people couldn't get out because the doors were locked - this is the nastiest one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versailles_rail_accident

 

Wasnt there something about locked doors after the Taunton sleeping coach fire

[Chris116]

The Spa Valley Railway has to lock the doors on one side of their trains between Groombridge and Eridge due to running alongside the National Rail line for part of the distance.

[john new]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

The safety question then becomes which results in fewer fatalities. There's always the chance that reducing one risk will create a new one, yet the overall result is lower risk (zero never being achievable in practice).

 

Personally neither risk puts me off using trains because they're low enough that I'm not worried in the slightest about my life in either situation (I'd rather travel on the unlocked train, but not due to perceiving it to be safer).

Like you I think it is a conceptual thing regarding the type of doors we grew up on using the most. I never previously thought about it on the electric doors on LT stock as one example but do on main line style stock. The way the mind works is always a little odd, this is an example.

[ngtrains.com]

6 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The Ffestiniog locks you in to their compartment carriages before departure. I have a  vague memory that some of the other Welsh NG railways do this as well - there are a lot of limited clearances from cutting sides etc. 

 

That needs clarifying a bit.

We* lock outward opening doors only. This was a requirement predating all this ROGS stuff and is because of the very limited clearances on the original parts of the line. It was adjudged that an open door or an opening door on a moving train could hit the wall/rock/Wales an tip a carriage over. With much of the line on a ledge with rock one side and drop the other this was deemed undesirable.

 

This is pretty much limited to the historical and older modern stock. The new carriages on the FR & WHR have inward opening doors which aren’t locked. This seems to confuse many. 
 

* by we I mean the railway I drive on.

[stewartingram]

I mremember riding on the old emus from Lancaster to Morecambe, with the hand operated sliding doors fully open. It seemed that most people used them like that.

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

I mremember riding on the old emus from Lancaster to Morecambe, with the hand operated sliding doors fully open. It seemed that most people used them like that.

Apparently the Tyneside Electrics were the same!

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I seem to remember a few train fires where people couldn't get out because the doors were locked - this is the nastiest one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versailles_rail_accident

 

The ORR say that it’s far better to invest in measure which stop a train catching fire in the first place! 
 

That would include both on train measures like more fire retardant materials and infrastructure works like TPWS or upgraded level crossings which seem to prevent external factors.

Edited November 29, 2023 by phil-b259

[black and decker boy]

On 28/11/2023 at 20:04, Bon Accord said:

 

As far as I'm aware amongst the 'heritage' operators only LSL has fitted CDL to their coaches. Everyone else has an exemption, at least for the moment.

Not quite, other than NYMR to Whitby which is unique*, all other heritage carriage operators on the mainline have entered into a ‘fitment plan’ to add CDL over a set timescale. Their exemption is based and includes this. 
 

only WCRC have refused to offer or enter into such a plan.

 

* NYMR exemption is specific to the - route and to a maximum speed of 25mph. They do not have to fit CDL but have an agreed method of working (shed door bolts and lots of stewards). WCRC stock doesn’t just run the Jacobite, it also runs 100mph services on the mainlines.

 

 

[AMJ]

The NYMR staff locked the doors with a T key before operating along the main line when I was on it this year.  Wonder if that was a reaction to the West Coast issue.  Horses and stable doors!

[russ p]

Is there actually a system available for vacuum brakes and only battery voltage from dynamos 

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, AMJ said:

The NYMR staff locked the doors with a T key before operating along the main line when I was on it this year.  Wonder if that was a reaction to the West Coast issue.  Horses and stable doors!

Probably just good safety management, some of which is keeping up to date with developments and reacting to issues elsewhere.

 

Given WCRC's regular 'interactions' with safety officialdom, watching the latest developments regarding them is probably useful as a learning aid for others!

[rodent279]

Have ORR set a deadline for CDL?