WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[8K77]

WCRC Has had to be fair 18 years to fit the stock the required CDL interlocking to its stock. The ORR Gave them this notice 18 years they have neglected to fit the stock with the equipment. 

They can't really play the victim on this issue sadly.

 

K77

[keefer]

This is going to go round in circles again.

WCRC didn't fit CDL on their Mk1 rakes, reached an exemption agreement with ORR based on certain conditions being met, on more than one occasion WCRC breached those conditions, hence ORR's perfectly reasonable response.

As far as I can see, ORR are treating all operators equally and fairly - it is WCRC who are causing the ongoing problem for themselves by their pig-headed refusal to follow the rules.

 

[ruggedpeak]

The fairness question was answered by a High Court Judge quite clearly. There seem to be a few who still think WCRC are the victims, which suggests they have not read the judgement. That the Judge had to explain in written judgement to WCRC and it's legal team that assertions made in court need the backing of actual evidence is not a good look.

 

I only hope those who made statements for the court case understand that all of their conduct is grist to the mill for any criminal prosecution if WCRC were to be involved in a serious incident.

Edited March 18 by ruggedpeak

[adb968008]

21 hours ago, 8K77 said:

WCRC Has had to be fair 18 years to fit the stock the required CDL interlocking to its stock. The ORR Gave them this notice 18 years they have neglected to fit the stock with the equipment. 

They can't really play the victim on this issue sadly.

 

K77

Belmond has been going nearly 50 years, only has 1 rake and is still running without cdl.

whats there excuse ?

 

Tyseley is less than 10 years, given they also knew from their conception and a mainline operator, what excuse do they have for not complying back in 2014 from the outset ?

 

SRPS also could have complied years ago, as could Rivera etc…

 

truth be known, none of the rolling stock operators have been on the ball here.

If they were then theyd all be 100% done by now and the ORR not granting exemptions.

the difference was wcrc chose to challenge it, they lost but it doesnt open the door for vendettas, they should be falling in line like everyone else, and thus treated like everyone else.

 

Royal Scotsman is back next month, I wonder if that will be cdl fitted and ready ?

 

Wouldnt it be safer, better to Shut everyone down now, until they comply and be done with it... theres no arguments then, and thats fair. If not I dont see the argument that wcrc shouldnt be allowed to further challenge why they cant, purely based on “having had enough time” if everyone else who has had enough time, still has an exemption… if wcrc submit a plan thats broadly the same as everyone else plan ?

 

 

 

Edited March 18 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

26 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Belmond has been going nearly 50 years, only has 1 rake and is still running.

whats there excuse ?

 

Tyseley is less than 10 years, given they also knew from their conception and a mainline operator, what excuse do they have for not complying back in 2014 ?

 

SRPS also could have complied years ago, as could Rivera etc…

 

truth be known, none of the rolling stock operators have been on the ball here.

If they were then theyd all be 100% done by now.

the difference was wcrc chose to challenge it, they lost but it doesnt open the door for vendettas, they should be falling in line like everyone else, and thus treated like everyone else.

 

The easiest way would be for ORR to blanket set a new final date, no excuses, over riding all other agreements made.. potentially starting from right now… that would be fair, and end this loophole farce that they are all exploiting… the deadlins gone years ago.. they are all using it, some louder and wider than others.

 

bottom line legally the ORR has to treat all equally, without preference or prejudice, even if some are easier or challenging to work with.

 

As far as I know an ORR inspector has never turned up twice in the space of 3 months and found legally binding agreements were not been met!

 

The whole point of the ORR issuing derogation is they can have confidence that any conditions the ORR specify will always be complied with. That goes for anything being inspected by the way - be it a food inspector and a restaurant which is repeatedly found to be overrun by rats / mice, a nightclub found routinely chaining up emergency exists or even a TOC who repeatedly fail to fix their depot lighting / remove hazards from authorised walking routes even after the owners have insisted such things will not happen.

 

Granted the entire charter train industry may not have been progressing as fast as the ORR would have liked with respect to CDL - but if operators can prove 100% compliance with any mitigating measures the ORR insist on then, from an inspectorate / regulation point of view the risks are obviously being controlled / managed properly so -  it follows that requests to defer fitment will have been far easier to accommodate.

 

And that is the nub of regulation - TRUST! Its impossible for inspectors to be everywhere at once - so their is an implicit requirement that the regulating / inspecting body has to be able to trust those who it works with. People who are complaint and helpful can expect to be trusted and subjected to less scrutiny / restriction than those who cause problems - its as simple as that.

 

Once a company is shown not just once but twice not complying with the regulations then the regulator is quite within their rights to take a harsher line.

 

As such WCR have bought this on themselves by their sloppy operating methods - had the ORR inspectors not found any issues with the way the Jacobite was being staffed the first time they visited last year then WCR might well have found the ORR more amenable to a more flexible timeframe. As things stand the ORR have every right to not trust a word that WCR say and that will onl;y change when WCR proves itself worthy of being trusted again! Running to the courts does nothing to change that fundamental truth - if anything it makes it worse.

 

 

[adb968008]

16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

As far as I know an ORR inspector has never turned up twice in the space of 3 months and found legally binding agreements were not been met!

 

The whole point of the ORR issuing derogation is they can have confidence that any conditions the ORR specify will always be complied with. That goes for anything being inspected by the way - be it a food inspector and a restaurant which is repeatedly found to be overrun by rats / mice, a nightclub found routinely chaining up emergency exists or even a TOC who repeatedly fail to fix their depot lighting / remove hazards from authorised walking routes even after the owners have insisted such things will not happen.

 

Granted the entire charter train industry may not have been progressing as fast as the ORR would have liked with respect to CDL - but if operators can prove 100% compliance with any mitigating measures the ORR insist on then, from an inspectorate / regulation point of view the risks are obviously being controlled / managed properly so -  it follows that requests to defer fitment will have been far easier to accommodate.

 

And that is the nub of regulation - TRUST! Its impossible for inspectors to be everywhere at once - so their is an implicit requirement that the regulating / inspecting body has to be able to trust those who it works with. People who are complaint and helpful can expect to be trusted and subjected to less scrutiny / restriction than those who cause problems - its as simple as that.

 

Once a company is shown not just once but twice not complying with the regulations then the regulator is quite within their rights to take a harsher line.

 

As such WCR have bought this on themselves by their sloppy operating methods - had the ORR inspectors not found any issues with the way the Jacobite was being staffed the first time they visited last year then WCR might well have found the ORR more amenable to a more flexible timeframe. As things stand the ORR have every right to not trust a word that WCR say and that will onl;y change when WCR proves itself worthy of being trusted again! Running to the courts does nothing to change that fundamental truth - if anything it makes it worse.

 

 

 

so is this about shutting wcrc down, or making them cdl compliant ?

 

certainly the posts here read as many would like or are trying to shut them down, and as an outsider it certainly feels to me like theres plenty of vendettas and ill will.

But if thats the case, surely cdl isnt the right vehicle to do it, as if they become compliant…then that avenue is closed.

or is it a case of keep fighting until you get the killer blow ?

 

I’m not in this industry so I only know so much, but what I read here is fascinating, ive got to be honest ive not been on a wcrc tour in years either. I’d no idea it was that bad.

Edited March 18 by adb968008

[Boris]

I think there are some who would like to see the WCRC charter business reduced in size or shut down, they have an "interesting" safety record.  They do a lot of other other stuff besides charters but its the charters that have the incidents.

 

The ORR have made no secret of there being no further exemptions for none CDL stock with a deadline given, TOCs have had a LOT of notice about this there isn't really an excuse in the 21st century, no matter how many times you use the words heritage or enthusiast.  I don't really care about coaches having CDL or not but I did find WCRCs refusal to fit CET toilets disagreeable, railway folks shouldn't have to be playing in aerosolised poo in 2024.

[phil-b259]

51 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

so is this about shutting wcrc down, or making them cdl compliant ?

 

 

It should be about making them compliant - however given there is hard evidence they cannot be trusted to abide by any interim measures the ORR may require then it entirely reasonable to turn round and say "you have had your chance" and ban any unfitted WCR stock from the national network.

 

There is a saying " your reap what you sow" and the fact WCRs attitude to safety requirements being ignored - particularly with its actions with last Summers Jacobite means they only have themselves to blame for this.

 

And that is NOT WCR bashing - its simply due process. If there was evidence that Belmond, the folk at Tysley etc had shown similar disregard for the ORRs mitigating measures then I would be calling for their stock to be kicked off the mainline until it was CDL fitted too.

Edited March 18 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

I did find WCRCs refusal to fit CET toilets disagreeable, railway folks shouldn't have to be playing in aerosolised poo in 2024.

 

TOO RIGHT!!!

[arran]

and while everyone digs in their heals the local economy suffers 

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, arran said:

and while everyone digs in their heals the local economy suffers 

 

Stop making excuses - rules is rules!

 

Lines have to be drawn somewhere. There is substantial profit to be had from the Jacobite operation so if WCR don't want to lose out on lots of revenue they will find a way..... Its not as if their entire coach fleet consists of Mk1s after all.....

[Gilbert]

He's not a TOC.....he's a very naughty boy....

[arran]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Stop making excuses - rules is rules!

 

Lines have to be drawn somewhere. There is substantial profit to be had from the Jacobite operation so if WCR don't want to lose out on lots of revenue they will find a way..... Its not as if their entire coach fleet consists of Mk1s after all.....

I'm just pointing out that its affecting others .

 

I know they have played it as far as they can and should have had a program of works,  and there's one set up already, has its got door locks ? 

[ba14eagle]

Just before Christmas, my Wife and I travelled on a charter that WCRC supplied a mixed bag of mark 1 and mark 2 stock for. Both times we tried to exit the train, the supposedly steward operated manual door locks would not budge and getting off the train became a real concern. In fact, my Wife, who has ptsd, started to suffer a panic attack, being trapped within the train. The railtour operator barely supplied 1 steward for 2 coaches by the end of the day, so actually avoiding being overcarried became a bit of an issue.

What would happen in the event of an emergency? This cavalier attitude towards passengers needs to stop - once and for all. If WCRC and others cannot fall into line, who cares if they carry on trading or are closed down?

 

[john new]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Stop making excuses - rules is rules!

 

Lines have to be drawn somewhere. There is substantial profit to be had from the Jacobite operation so if WCR don't want to lose out on lots of revenue they will find a way..... Its not as if their entire coach fleet consists of Mk1s after all.....

Not sure exactly what flavour of Mk1 coaches they have previously used but for Harry Potter fans it ideally needs to be Mk1 side corridor compartment stock to be authentic to the books. Not fitting CDL on their Mk1s is rather like Mother Goose shooting her golden goose.

[Reorte]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

so is this about shutting wcrc down, or making them cdl compliant ?

 

certainly the posts here read as many would like or are trying to shut them down, and as an outsider it certainly feels to me like theres plenty of vendettas and ill will.

But if thats the case, surely cdl isnt the right vehicle to do it, as if they become compliant…then that avenue is closed.

or is it a case of keep fighting until you get the killer blow ?

 

I’m not in this industry so I only know so much, but what I read here is fascinating, ive got to be honest ive not been on a wcrc tour in years either. I’d no idea it was that bad.

If it feels like some want to shut WCRC down it's only because  WC keep treading on toes and dragging their heels and generally giving the impression of not being a responsible operator. I said it earlier it's the job of an operator to follow the rules (they can argue against them, just as long as they follow them), and WCRC don't appear to be all that keen to do so. And whilst I'd more than happily travel on a train without locked doors (indeed, I'd prefer to) I'd have serious doubts about travelling on one belonging to a company that seems unwilling to meet the requirements - if they can't be bothered on one I'm not concerned about what are the chances that they're not bothering on one that I very much would be?

 

So it's no wonder some people appear to have it in for them.

Edited March 19 by Reorte

[TheSignalEngineer]

Tyseley's exemption expires this year. 

This was their position I posted based on their press release at the time of the WCRC judgement.

 

Vintage Trains have agreed a CDL fitment programme with ORR and their stock now has retention tanks fitted. They are also fitting / reactivating air brakes on their stock.

[stewartingram]

I am NOT speculating here, but it does make one wonder about what other standards they don't keep to, such as maintenance?

[Gilbert]

Just now, stewartingram said:

I am NOT speculating here, but it does make one wonder about what other standards they don't keep to, such as maintenance?

I worked in healthcare at a senior level and small failures, omissions and errors were often (but not always) an indicator of bigger clinical problems to come...I have based my personal assessment of WCR on that (plus a very poorly managed rail tour last year...so I do have some personal experience)

[Steadfast]

On 18/03/2024 at 18:44, adb968008 said:

Belmond has been going nearly 50 years, only has 1 rake and is still running without cdl.

whats there excuse ?

 

Tyseley is less than 10 years, given they also knew from their conception and a mainline operator, what excuse do they have for not complying back in 2014 from the outset ?

 

SRPS also could have complied years ago, as could Rivera etc…

 

truth be known, none of the rolling stock operators have been on the ball here.

If they were then theyd all be 100% done by now and the ORR not granting exemptions.

the difference was wcrc chose to challenge it, they lost but it doesnt open the door for vendettas, they should be falling in line like everyone else, and thus treated like everyone else.

 

Royal Scotsman is back next month, I wonder if that will be cdl fitted and ready ?

 

Wouldnt it be safer, better to Shut everyone down now, until they comply and be done with it... theres no arguments then, and thats fair. If not I dont see the argument that wcrc shouldnt be allowed to further challenge why they cant, purely based on “having had enough time” if everyone else who has had enough time, still has an exemption… if wcrc submit a plan thats broadly the same as everyone else plan ?

 

 

 

All the other companies have plans bound by timescales to fit CDL and comply with the ORR requirements. 

WCRC had no plan, hence the heavy handed action to get them to comply. It was highlighted in the notes from the court case at the time.

 

Whether their previous attitude towards safety helped sway the judgement, I don't know, but some of the WCRC incidents RAIB have published reports on previously don't instill confidence in their safety management. The fact the company had improvement notices slapped on it and was caught multiple times not complying beggars belief quite frankly.

 

The railway industry is full of professionals, from those of us hands on with the trains right up to board level of the companies, and this kind of slapdash behaviour makes a mockery of those playing by the book.

I can't ever imagine the company I work for ever having such a complacent throwaway attitude to safety. Yes, there have been recommendations from RAIB reports in the past, but incidents happen and companies learn from them and constantly improve and make the railway a safer place.

 

Jo

[TheSignalEngineer]

19 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I am NOT speculating here, but it does make one wonder about what other standards they don't keep to, such as maintenance?

Weren't they operating Tangmere when it dropped a connecting onto the 3rd rail in 2014?

From personal experience I think they may have been running 46115 when it failed (middle con rod bearing?) at Eccles in 2010. I had gone out to film it departing from Manchester Victoria. While I was waiting I did get my reward of filming a 66 thrashing up through Miles Platting with a loaded  stone train. I later saw the railtour being pushed by the 47 on the back at Ordsall Lane.

 

[Matt37268]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

I am NOT speculating here, but it does make one wonder about what other standards they don't keep to, such as maintenance?

Isolating the TPWS on 34067 and 45231 wasn’t the brightest of ideas… 

[black and decker boy]

On 18/03/2024 at 20:21, arran said:

and while everyone digs in their heals the local economy suffers 

No trains have been cancelled by WCRC due to a lack of CDL and a movement is in RTT for the Jacobite stock. Lots of hints of MK1s being fitted with CDL at Carnforth so let’s not panic and jump to conclusions 

[black and decker boy]

On 18/03/2024 at 22:08, john new said:

Not sure exactly what flavour of Mk1 coaches they have previously used but for Harry Potter fans it ideally needs to be Mk1 side corridor compartment stock to be authentic to the books. Not fitting CDL on their Mk1s is rather like Mother Goose shooting her golden goose.

They are open standards. Only 1 compartment coach runs and only in 1 rake.

 

this is all made clear on their website as you pay a premium for the compartments 

 

the website also states the train will be of mk1 or mk2 stock.

[black and decker boy]

25 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

No trains have been cancelled by WCRC due to a lack of CDL and a movement is in RTT for the Jacobite stock. Lots of hints of MK1s being fitted with CDL at Carnforth so let’s not panic and jump to conclusions 

Scratch That. This has appeared on the WCRC website this afternoon. 

 

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/important-announcement-the-jacobite

 

 

They really are deluded but seem unable / unwilling to recognise that and the wording of that release is inflammatory and an exaggeration of the truth & process involved and omits the fact they only applied last week or so for the exemption.