WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[ColinK]

I wouldn’t be surprised if WCRC are trying to get The Scottish Govt to fund CDL.

[adb968008]

I’m awaiting the news of the Harry Potter train hiting being banned by the cold hand of government in the US media, just as its prime time for Americans to be planning their summer holidays.

 

The tourist board are going to need strong gonads if they hold back on getting involved, especially if it risks a dip in travel demand to the UK.

Our politicians run scared of US bad news.

 

of course if the US media don't care, then wcrcs stunt is all for nowt.

 

It all comes down to the power of potter in the media, and the US is quite anti-UK at the moment, Potter has more magic than Flying Scotsman and i’d wager wcrc are well hooked into Warner Brothers better than the ORR, and media would always see news like this as newsworthy as badnews sells well.

 

i’m sure they have all their cards lined up.

 

lets see what transpires.

Edited March 20 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, keefer said:

What I meant was, the ORR are stating the 'what' but there's no mention of the 'why'.

A few lines mentioning exactly what WCRC did to lose their exemption in the first place, and the result of the JR would hopefully let the general public see that this whole situation is entirely of WCRC's own doing.

I think it's in everyone's interest that the WCRC 'poor me' defence is shut down and shown exactly for what it is - a complete sham.

They are going for every ounce of sympathy and will no doubt mention all the real folk who are going to suffer as a result of this, while carefully failing to mention the serious safety breaches (and further subsequent refusal to comply), by them, that led us to where we are. 

 

Given the ORR is a supposedly an independent regulator it cannot be seen to be singling out one entity or taking sides - and believe me thats what WCRs lawyers would love to as the minute there is any hint of bias then it would form grounds for another Judicial review / legal action.

 

Hence the rather dry and procedural nature of the ORRs response - one which doesn't bring up mentions of WCRs past regulation breaking and confines itself to 'WCR didn't apply in time' (which of course neatly side steps any talk of what the outcome of any application for a derogation might be)

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, ColinK said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if WCRC are trying to get The Scottish Govt to fund CDL.

 

Thats up to the Scottish Government and Scottish voters.

 

How they get the money to fit CDL is largely up to them (though a grant from a Scottish Governmental body could be challenged by other charter operators as an illegal subsidy unless carefully structured) - the main thing is making sure they are not allowed to operate non CDL coaching stock on any of their trains.

[BoD]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

It all comes down to the power of potter

If it’s all down to the Harry Potter power why doesn’t he just say Centricus Lockitus Fixitus or something like that.

 

 

Strewth, I’m so embarrassed I even thought of that.

[ruggedpeak]

39 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Given the ORR is a supposedly an independent regulator it cannot be seen to be singling out one entity or taking sides - and believe me thats what WCRs lawyers would love to as the minute there is any hint of bias then it would form grounds for another Judicial review / legal action.

 

Hence the rather dry and procedural nature of the ORRs response - one which doesn't bring up mentions of WCRs past regulation breaking and confines itself to 'WCR didn't apply in time' (which of course neatly side steps any talk of what the outcome of any application for a derogation might be)

Given their performance at the Judicial Review I doubt the ORR are overly worried about WCRC and its lawyers. They can't stop WCRC launching more litigation.

 

As the short Corsican warry fella said "Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake".

Edited March 20 by ruggedpeak
remove lines

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

EDIT: just checked the official guidance for an exemption application and clause 7.3 says ORR have up to 4months from date all necessary information is received to assess and determine an application. WCRC seemingly wanted it done in less than 3 weeks!!!!!

So not "automatic" then? How strange.

 

[woodenhead]

All those American tourists can still visit the viaduct, just on a 156 or by coach.

 

I am sure some enterprising people can figure out alternatives before the summer influx of tourists.

 

And of course there are other trains available with CDL.

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, BoD said:

If it’s all down to the Harry Potter power why doesn’t he just say Centricus Lockitus Fixitus or something like that.

 

 

Strewth, I’m so embarrassed I even thought of that.

Or, even easier, get Warner Brothers to pay for it?

[Andrew Young]

12 hours ago, BoD said:

We can all justifiably criticise WCRC’s actions before now and how they have gone about this recently , but let’s not forget there will be a knock on effect and some genuine ‘hard luck’ stories.  Whether that be disappointed punters, WCRC staff, or businesses (in the whole region and not just FW) they don’t deserve this but do deserve sympathy.

Which makes the position taken by WCRC management to ignore the requirement to fit CDL over many years and at several stages of consultation / litigation all the more disappointing. Their latest stance clearly shows a contempt for the ORR and the legislation they’re required to abide by, a stance of brinkmanship that should never have occurred if WCRC was a professionally run organisation with a robust safety culture.
 

Suspect that if we haven’t already, then we are close to the stage where the cost of CDL would be cheaper than the legal bill run up by WCRC in fighting this case. 
 

Or maybe, spend the money on CDL rather than buying steam locos…..

 

Andrew
 

 

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

All those American tourists can still visit the viaduct, just on a 156 or by coach.

 

I am sure some enterprising people can figure out alternatives before the summer influx of tourists.

 

That would have all the appeal of going to Wolsztyn to ride a DMU.

 

if I had a Polish holiday planned and knew the steam was a DMU, i’d probably look to postpone and go elsewhere like Harz.

 

i’d imagine similar logic would apply to tourists of other states, as FW isnt London, and vacation time is precious.  A trip to the highlands isnt a day out, its a multi day adventure that needs some planning… and if the ride is seen as a focal point, then the whole vacations value diminishes to competing alternatives… Croatia is seemingly very popular with Americans this year.

 

I couldnt imagime many Scottish adventures for foreign tourists not also taking in Edinburgh or Glasgow, as well as a few distilleries etc… c600 a day on 180 day operation takes out 100k tourists plans, circa 700k hotel nights.. thats before those who just go to watch it at the viaduct… its very easy to get to big numbers.

Its probably not revenue lost, but vacations deferred to “next year” and go somewhere else instead…. I’ve postponed a holiday to several places because of local issues, but its not stopped me going on vacation… theres plenty of choice.

though tbh the Uk has done so much to damage its tourist industry globally the last few years this may be a drop in the ocean. With the Olympics and Euros this summer the EU is the big winner on global tourism this year, were the add on for the hardy few, its hard enough getting tourists out of London, this is one more reason not to do it.

Edited March 21 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

It is an ongoing source of bafflement to me that anyone would pay serious wonga to ride anywhere in a chraracterless Mk1 at National Network speeds in 2024. 25 mph on an impecunious preserved line is one thing, this is another. Obviously WCRC know their business, or perhaps don't. 

[ruggedpeak]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

It is an ongoing source of bafflement to me that anyone would pay serious wonga to ride anywhere in a chraracterless Mk1 at National Network speeds in 2024. 25 mph on an impecunious preserved line is one thing, this is another. Obviously WCRC know their business, or perhaps don't. 

But you know what a Mk1 is, an old outdated and unsafe by modern standards railway coach. And whatever you may or may not know about Harry Potter, it probably does not get you sufficiently excited to pay for a trip on the Jacobite!

 

For the thousands of punters on the Jacobite it is living the dream of being part of the fantasy world that is Harry Potter. They have no idea about the coach or its safety etc as they are buying the experience.

 

For WCRC that Mk1 is not a railway coach, it is device that can be put into a specific geographical location and linked to some IP that causes it to be filled with paying customers who make a nice profit for the company. That is the business.

 

WCRC know the "business". Whether they know railway safety is another matter.

[adb968008]

32 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

It is an ongoing source of bafflement to me that anyone would pay serious wonga to ride anywhere in a chraracterless Mk1 at National Network speeds in 2024. 25 mph on an impecunious preserved line is one thing, this is another. Obviously WCRC know their business, or perhaps don't. 

Thats the thing I suspect many are missing.

 

WCRC isnt a train company.

its a business running trains.

 

 

It is in an industry of train companies that are running as businesses.

As such it will always be a misfit.

 

tocs dont get much latitude to choose their timetables and routes with ease, but wcrc can choose what it wants and does not want to run on a whim.

 

Wcrc have chosen to not run fw. ( they have other options), but reached a business decision not to.

I would guess the maths aren't stacking up on the other options.

 

Lets not keep saying wcrc arent sensible, they just flipped a Hall to Japan, for what is suggested a very good roi, they have several prior very savvy business decisions, indeed retaining the number 5972 on the Hall was probably its best decision.

 

Have we actually seen any other charter company produce a vb cdl fitted rake yet, they are just commiting to do it.. commitment and delivery isnt the same thing, they too maybe postponing the inevitable… ask any business for a roadmap and how much they deliver.

 

Fw-mallaig might be a prize asset, but just like Hattons winding down, if wcrc arent seeing a way through this, they arent going to operate at a loss… has anyone actually seen a mk1 vac brake with cdl yet ?.. whilst fitting air to steam loco is possible, or cdl to air might be “cheap and easy”.. if the economics arent there, they arent there.… berating wcrc for not doing it is pointless, they arent a train company, they are a business and if numbers dont stack up, playing the jv game maybe there only economic chance of prolonging the inevitable end… they might be compelled to fit cdl, but they arent compelled to run trains…  

 

Blaming them wont change anything if the economics dont make sense… they arent a charity.

Is it not a possibility that we just need to accept its beyond business reach for them ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

Why not take a rake of MK2s with CDL and retrofit with opening windows?

 

 

[Legend]

I bet you can’t guess who has booked a cottage near Glenfinnan in June ! 
 

Actually  aware of the WCRC /ORR shenanigans it won’t make a great deal of difference to me . The location was picked because of the stunning beauty of Arisaig beach etc etc . Had the steam train been running I might have gone to take a picture of it crossing the bridge . But there’s was always that uncertainty plus weather and midges !
 

 However be in no doubt that this will have a big effect in the area . I suspect there’s a few outlets in Mallaig that might not survive the season , so people should not casually dismiss this as a wee spat . It’s not ,and yes you can expect the sticky stuff to hit the whirling blade on this , probably in the Scottish parliament ! 

Edited March 21 by Legend

[adb968008]

9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Why not take a rake of MK2s with CDL and retrofit with opening windows?

 

 

Probably need to retrofit them with compartments too.

 

The product is the harry potter experience.. not just any old train.

 

going cheap and chucking out any old product rarely goes well, especially in Scotland.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/27/glasgow-willy-wonka-experience-slammed-as-farce-as-tickets-refunded

This went globally viral too…

 

USA

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2024/02/28/willy-wonka-experience-scam-scotland-hunt-foster-ctm-vpx.cnn

Australia

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/travel-stories/farce-willy-wonka-event-shut-down-hours-after-launch-amid-complaints/news-story/c2ab49cc0a3000d6251bf68f045d09a9

 

etc etc
 

For the same reason suggesting a preserved railway as an alternate to Glenfinnan will also be seen as a “cheap substitute”.

 

Edited March 21 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

All those American tourists can still visit the viaduct, just on a 156 or by coach.

 

I am sure some enterprising people can figure out alternatives before the summer influx of tourists.

 

And of course there are other trains available with CDL.

Agree. There seems to be a lack of imagination going on here. Whilst I get the Harry Potter steam engine thing, I have little doubt that an internal and external relivery of a 156 or 153 into a Harry Potter design would be a huge hit in itself.

 

I may be very mistaken here, but I don't think that WCRC have any agreement with Warner Bros over Harry Potter IP. All oftheir blurb is very careful not to say it is licenced or anything to do with Harry Potter, it just says it crosses the bridge used in the films and follows the route, which is factually true and not a breach of Potter IP. The Jacobite is a steam train that happens to look like the Harry Potter one but is not licenced as such. There is no reference to licencing with Warners anywhere I can find on WCRC's website - it would be referenced all over the place if licencing was in place.*

 

Thus Warner Bros have no direct interest in the Jacobite (but would like any adverse publicity to go away I suspect) but they could licence Scotrail to do the Potter equivalent of the SBB Chocolat Express, which I think would be a huge hit.

 

 

And it is presumably be within the rights of NR/Scotrail to say to WCRC you can't come on the route any more as it will just be a contractual matter. I doubt NR failed to give themselves an exit clause.

 

*happy to be proven wrong!

Edited March 21 by ruggedpeak
update

[Wheatley]

40 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Is it not a possibility that we just need to accept its beyond business reach for them ?

That's fine, but if that's the case they should stand aside and let an operator who can meet the minimum infrastructure requirements run it.   

 

I could run a really profitable coach touring business around the West Highlands if I didn't have to fart about with all that tedious red tape around drivers' hours, PSVO licences, MOTs, VAT etc. This is no different. 

[woodenhead]

@adb968008 And there are plenty of Warners/HarryPotter licensed trains at theme parks that cater for that.

 

it should not be beyond the capability of train operators to create an experience like Harry Potter without using ancient MK1 coaches.

 

But WCRC don’t want to do that, they are selling the Jacobite that just happens to use the viaduct in the film, it’s Harry Potter by association as they don’t want to get into licensing problems as well.

 

And cynical to then use Harry Potter to get themselves into the news and portray the ORR as the bad guys.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

It is an ongoing source of bafflement to me that anyone would pay serious wonga to ride anywhere in a chraracterless Mk1 at National Network speeds in 2024. 25 mph on an impecunious preserved line is one thing, this is another. Obviously WCRC know their business, or perhaps don't. 

Considerably less characterless than what's followed. Travelling over 25 mph in them doesn't bother me in the slightest, although that assumes they're in decent condition and not rotting apart by now. In any case what's the line speed on the Mallaig extension? We're not exactly talking ECML.

 

Obviously there's a limit on how much I'd be prepared to pay but other than that there's nothing offputting.

[BoD]

29 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And cynical to then use Harry Potter to get themselves into the news and portray the ORR as the bad guys.

Nowhere in their statement do they mention Harry Potter.  In fact their entire blurb on the website is about the line and scenery itself. They do briefly mention that the Glenfinnan viaduct was used as a setting for Harry Potter but only in a wider description of the viaduct itself. 

 

As you and others have said this will probably be down  to licensing but It would appear that it is others and particular the press that are making the Jacobite into the Harry Potter train and not WCRC. Not officially anyway and not that they would have discouraged it in any way.

Edited March 21 by BoD

[nightstar.train]

1 minute ago, BoD said:

Nowhere in their statement do they mention Harry Potter.  In fact their entire blurb on the website is about the line and scenery itself. They do briefly mention that the Glenfinnan viaduct was used as a setting for Harry Potter but only in a wider description of the viaduct itself.

 

It would appear that it is others and particular the press that are making the Jacobite into the Harry Potter train,  Not that WCRC would have discouraged that in any way.

 

I expect that they are rightfully fearful of Warner Bros army of lawyers and know exactly where the line is and how far they can tread it in regards to Harry Potter.  Seems they can't apply the same thinking to the ORR though. 

 

I would imagine that IF (and its a big IF) WCRC can show the ORR that they have a costed and timed plan for fitment of CDL then they will get an exemption, just as Belmond, Vintage trains and so on have. But they will have to prove it, not just make vague statements. I'd imagine the ORR would want to see orders for CDL equipment placed and workshop slots booked. They have fitted the Northern Belle, which shows they can do it (although it's easier to fit them than a Mk1), which I would imagine will help their case with the ORR. 

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

I expect that they are rightfully fearful of Warner Bros army of lawyers and know exactly where the line is and how far they can tread it in regards to Harry Potter.

Harry Potter is no doubt a very useful tool for bringing in business, they don't need to risk treading on any legal toes to make use of that perception of it (although you could certainly argue that their headbutting with the ORR shows that they're happy enough to do that even when they're on a hiding to nothing). Probably helps that the train's been running since before Harry Potter made it more popular.

[Cruachan]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Probably need to retrofit them with compartments too.

 

The Jacobite rakes have always been formed of mark 1 (or mark 2) opens, barring the brake vehicle which does offer a small quantity of bookable compartment accommodation, so I don't think compartments would need be fitted to much of any speculative replacement stock either.

Edited March 21 by Cruachan