WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[John Besley]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The GCR incident was unfortunate, but also at a “mainline” station.

 

Any number of lines have any number of “halts” that arent even close to train length, some maybe 1 coach platforms with a 6 coach train.. and thats even if the platform reaches door height.

 

Ive always found these dangerous myself, even as a seasoned traveller, as quite often unless your a regular to the line youve no idea the stopping point.

 

I certainly have seen occasion where a 6 coach stopped at a 1 coach platform, followed by a door opening 2-3 coaches off the platform, matched by frenzied shouting by the guard running up the track to prevent it.

 

I dont think its unreasonable to, to insist a calling train match the length of the platform.

 

 

Back in July 1999 I fired on an everning wine and dine trip on the SDR with 3205 Dave Phelps as my driver, we picked up the punters at Stav' on the way down stopping on the curve by the waterworks crossing by the Dart... down to Riverside to run round and back up to Stav to drop off the happy crowd... by now it was 23:00 plus and dark the train was just off the platform at the Bishop Bridge end.... everyone departed without any issue.

 

As we pulled away I was looking back down the train from my side as we where running tender first now; as it was on a curve only to spot in the light from the farmhouse a door swining open... 'Whoa stop... ' went back down the track and secured the door.

 

Had I not spotted it this would have no doubt been ripped off as we went under Hood Bridge.. in the dark the guard hadn't seen someone exit that end of the coach as it was over the platform ramp

 

 

Edited April 1 by John Besley
Correction

[stewartingram]

I went to the EATM at Carlton Colville on Friday, for the relaunch into service of the Blackpool "Terror Tram". Whilst there I partook of rides on the trams, buses/trolleybuses, and n.g railway. I noticed an operating practice in use on all of these modes which I've never encountered before.

"Back in the day" as they say, we had 'proper' buses, with open rear platforms, and conductors. The conductor rang the bell (2 rings), to tlel the driver "off we go". You don't hear that nowadays, just a single ring to tell the driver to stop (at the next stop)

So, at the museum, the 2 rings were indeed used, to set off, but were accompanied by the driver (whatever the vehicle) replying with 2 toots back from his horn/whistle. Sensible acknowledgement in fact. But, if the driver wasn't in the cab when the vehicle was loading,, there was more to it. (And in fact this was almost 100% of the time).

Driver gets in the cab - he has to settle in (adjust seat, insert his key, start engine, etc.etc). Then 1 toot to the conductor/guard, who replies with 1 ring. Conductor checks he is ready to go,  2 rings, driver acknowledges with 2 toots, then moves off.

On the trams, stops are mandatory at certain places. On the buses, there are conflicting moves around the circuit. They both toot before processing.

Now this is a heritage museum, but you can see (hear) they have put into place non-authentic operating procedures, which don't really distract from the image. I have to say, I found this professionalism quite outstanding and sensible.

[YT-1300]

9 hours ago, Neil said:

 

I thought I'd do some fact checking, turns out that the UK is safer for both passengers and staff than a good number of developed countries.

 

 

Bizarre logic here; exposing people to the risk of death makes them safer?

 

Many years ago I taught in a school near to Neville Hill depot in Leeds. A distraught mum turned up asking if we had seen her three year old who had gone missing from her garden. The next day we found out that the child had squeezed through a gap in the poorly maintained fence, wandered onto the tracks and been killed by a passing train. I am really rather cross about the suggestion that we should not take care to protect people. Just for one moment try putting yourself in the shoes of someone like the mum mentioned above, or the train driver, or the emergency services called out to the accident, before posting such fatuous nonsense.

That is a very unfortunate accident, the blame, if any is to be directed, should be to the mother for not making her garden secure enough, not the railway for having a poorly maintained fence.  A three year old is inquisitive and has no real perception of danger, and they will make a bee-line for anything that grabs their attention. 

 

If it was an adult, then they should know better.

 

I agree with @adb968008 that exposing risk *should* make people think about their actions, at the end of the day everyone is responsible for their own actions.  No one makes you climb a tall ladder, no-one makes you touch a live wire, no-one makes you open a door on a moving train.

 

I read somewhere that goes along the lines of "whenever something is made idiot proof, the universe creates a better idiot".

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 30/03/2024 at 13:31, jjb1970 said:

The big problem for WCRC and potential spineless ministers willing to apply pressure on their behalf is the legal decision. That leaves a trail visible from space should they get a waiver of some sort and someone dies in a door related incident as the decision was pretty blunt and didn't pull any punches. That gives the regulator a much stronger position and means ministers will have an adviser saying 'are you sure this is wise?', it might even be called courageous. So while it is not impossible that they could turn this into a popular cause celebre and hope for political interference I think it'll be difficult. Hopefully the politicians will leave it with the professionals.

I scored some victories in local campaigns in the past. At some meetings with council officials, utilities, politicians etc, the killer question was  "in the event of an accident which one of you holds the Go To Jail Card?" Certainly concentrated their minds on the problem in hand.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, YT-1300 said:

That is a very unfortunate accident, the blame, if any is to be directed, should be to the mother for not making her garden secure enough, not the railway for having a poorly maintained fence.  A three year old is inquisitive and has no real perception of danger, and they will make a bee-line for anything that grabs their attention. 

 

If it was an adult, then they should know better.

 

I agree with @adb968008 that exposing risk *should* make people think about their actions, at the end of the day everyone is responsible for their own actions.  No one makes you climb a tall ladder, no-one makes you touch a live wire, no-one makes you open a door on a moving train.

 

I read somewhere that goes along the lines of "whenever something is made idiot proof, the universe creates a better idiot".

I did a bit of soul searching on my original response to this, and so didnt offer an emotional reply, but about 8 years ago I was parked at a station, with my little one waiting my other half to arrive home. I noticed two women chattering, one with pram, the other with a 3 - 4 year old milling about on the pavement.

oblivious to the nattering women, the girl started moving off the pavement behind a parked transit van.

i sounded my horn, got flipped a bird in response by the women.

I saw the inevitable I opened the car door and hurled my 120kg up the street towards the woman and kid as a van driver turned down the street.

Sadly I didnt prevent it.

She went under the wheel of the van.

 

I helped first aid, definitely a broken foot, side impact injuries, the kid was worryingly silent, the mother in hysterics, between the worrying over the kid and screaming at the van driver.

 

After the police and ambulance was over, I was later asked to provide a witness statement as I was the only person with a full frontal view.

it really pained me to have to truthfully say the van driver had no chance, it was the mothers negligence. She wasnt just talking, but totally ignoring her child, and the van driver had no chance seeing the child from behind a parked transit. He wasnt even going fast. Afterwards he just kept saying “ive got kids too…” he was in total shock and couldnt even get out of the van, someone took the keys out.

 

whats worse, was after I returned to my car, my wife had returned and was comforting my own child who had recognised the girl from her school.

 

life is real, and built on real experiences… ever since, when driving narrow roads, with parked cars, i try to look for feet under parked cars…

 

i wasnt called as a witness, so assume there was neither any criminal or legal action.

Would this be different if we were on the platform side of the station ?

 

 

Edited April 1 by adb968008

[11B]

22 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Outlawing the purchasing of ladders and many DIY tools would do wonders for A&E as it would significantly reduce the number of 'DIY gone wrong' incidents which cost the NHS large sums of money to sort out. As would mandatory re-testing of motorists every 5-10 years......

 

Slightly of top, but kind of relevant..  I work in an Emergency Department (Can't use the word Accident any more), I would say that a good 95% of thus type of injury we see is from the so called professionals that take short cuts/refused to use safety equipment, not the DIYers of the world! So like I say kind of relevant to this situation?

 

But ORR ban does leave me with the question of why this ban doesn't seem fair. Maybe they should have had a cut-off date that applied to all operators with no work around/exceptions. As a comparison the current road laws don't say that when car tyres are down to minimum tread they need to be changed, but if Mr Jones two doors down has the same issue he can drive with them on dry days so long as he promises to change them at some point in the next 18 months!

 

Just a thought

 

Ian

[Michael Hodgson]

14 hours ago, stewartingram said:

 

"Back in the day" as they say, we had 'proper' buses, with open rear platforms, and conductors.

 

 

Yes, that's a non authentic operating practice.  When I was young buses didn't have conductors. 

That was considered women's work (like being a typist) - buses had "clippies", or as they were offcially called, conductresses.

Driving of course was a man's job.

 

[Oldddudders]

14 hours ago, YT-1300 said:

That is a very unfortunate accident, the blame, if any is to be directed, should be to the mother for not making her garden secure enough, not the railway for having a poorly maintained fence. 

Sadly the law, for nearly 200 years, has not agreed with you, however unreasonable that may seem. 

 

If some scrote chooses to cut a hole in the fence to make a quick route across the railway, and something horrid happens, be it to an adult or child, the railway is held responsible every time. It is the railway's responsibility to maintain that fence regardless. I've no doubt plenty of beaks have recognised the impossibility of this situation in some urban environments, but that is the law and they have no choice but to prosecute accordingly. 

[Bucoops]

24 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Yes, that's a non authentic operating practice.  When I was young buses didn't have conductors. 

That was considered women's work (like being a typist) - buses had "clippies", or as they were offcially called, conductresses.

Driving of course was a man's job.

 

 

Andre Previn might have had a few words to say about that. Perhaps not in the right order though.

[PhilH]

16 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Sadly the law, for nearly 200 years, has not agreed with you, however unreasonable that may seem. 

 

If some scrote chooses to cut a hole in the fence to make a quick route across the railway, and something horrid happens, be it to an adult or child, the railway is held responsible every time. It is the railway's responsibility to maintain that fence regardless. I've no doubt plenty of beaks have recognised the impossibility of this situation in some urban environments, but that is the law and they have no choice but to prosecute accordingly. 

So what happens with the, for me, elephant in the room, the 750v unguarded third rail. We seem to have a couple of fatalities and injuries every now and then due to perhaps people who have over imbibed for example coming into contact with the third rail. This would seem to me to be a far bigger problem than perhaps the one under discussion.

Edited April 2 by PhilH

[ruggedpeak]

39 minutes ago, 11B said:

Slightly of top, but kind of relevant..  I work in an Emergency Department (Can't use the word Accident any more), I would say that a good 95% of thus type of injury we see is from the so called professionals that take short cuts/refused to use safety equipment, not the DIYers of the world! So like I say kind of relevant to this situation?

 

But ORR ban does leave me with the question of why this ban doesn't seem fair. Maybe they should have had a cut-off date that applied to all operators with no work around/exceptions. As a comparison the current road laws don't say that when car tyres are down to minimum tread they need to be changed, but if Mr Jones two doors down has the same issue he can drive with them on dry days so long as he promises to change them at some point in the next 18 months!

 

Just a thought

 

Ian

Because as per your first paragraph there is a difference between amateurs and professionals. And no one has an exemption from tyre tread depth because it is utterly critical to the safe operation of a vehicle, the likelihood of it contributing to a collision is extremely high. And amateur drivers cannot be trusted to carry out any promised change.

 

For 'professionals' under HASAWA there is risk assessments and related processes. The ORR has followed these and allowed operators with suitable and sufficient risk assessments and other processes to have exemptions. This included WCRC who were granted an exemption on the basis they enacted the plan to install CDL and operated in accordance with their risk assessments. Spot checks were undertaken and WCRC were found not to in compliance with their own agreed procedures and that there had been incidents on their services, all detailed in the JR judgement.

 

Let's again clear up the misinformation being spread. The ORR has not banned anything, the 'ban' is the law set by statutory regulation. ORR's role and responsibility is to enforce those regulations - that is their statutory function. They offered exemptions to those who met the requirements. They withdrew them from those who failed to meet the requirements.

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, PhilH said:

So what happens with the, for me, elephant in the room, the 750v unguarded third rail. We seem to have a couple of fatalities and injuries every now and then due to perhaps people who have over inmbibed for example coming into contact with the third rail. This would seem to me to be a far bigger problem perhaps the one under the discussion.

I think it all depends upon how they entered railway property. If by the hole in the fence, the railway is responsible. If from a platform or a level crossing etc things are not so clear. 

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

I think it all depends upon how they entered railway property. If by the hole in the fence, the railway is responsible. If from a platform or a level crossing etc things are not so clear. 

There should be a statutory trespass notice at both, in such a position that you have to walk past it to reach the track. If that is in place then from a strict liability point of view the railway has a defence. 

 

The fact that it doesn't always work is the reason why platform ends and level crossings are festooned with anti-trespass guards and, increasingly, no platform ramps. If you want to get on the track you will, but you can't (shouldn't be able to) say that you just casually wandered past walking your dog and didn't know any better. 

[Stevebr]

I am due to spend 3 weeks in May in the Fort William general area so have been communicating and booking  with a number of hotels/self catering establishments over the last couple of weeks.  In virtually all cases they were aware that the Jacobite wouldn't run but none seemed to think it was that great an impact. It seems that nobody has cancelled their holiday as a result of the train not running. There also seems a major uptake in interest on the service trains which are nearing capacity.  I suspect there is a negative impact on businesses in Mallaig though.  I hope all the refunds do actually happen.

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, Stevebr said:

I am due to spend 3 weeks in May in the Fort William general area so have been communicating and booking  with a number of hotels/self catering establishments over the last couple of weeks.  In virtually all cases they were aware that the Jacobite wouldn't run but none seemed to think it was that great an impact. It seems that nobody has cancelled their holiday as a result of the train not running. There also seems a major uptake in interest on the service trains which are nearing capacity.  I suspect there is a negative impact on businesses in Mallaig though.  I hope all the refunds do actually happen.

There are things to do on the West Coast of Scotland other than the Harry Potter train? Who knew...

 

The likely result of not lining the pockets of WCRC and Smith by their extraction a £1 million profit back to England is that the money will most likely be spent and retained by local businesses. So not running the Jacobite may well be beneficial to local businesses overall. Yes, the stewards and others may have to find alternative seasonal work but tourists won't be saying "I will save that money I was going to spend on the Jacobite and take it back home". So unlikely to be any net loss to the area and quite likely to be a net gain.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

There are things to do on the West Coast of Scotland other than the Harry Potter train? Who knew...

 

The likely result of not lining the pockets of WCRC and Smith by their extraction a £1 million profit back to England is that the money will most likely be spent and retained by local businesses. So not running the Jacobite may well be beneficial to local businesses overall. Yes, the stewards and others may have to find alternative seasonal work but tourists won't be saying "I will save that money I was going to spend on the Jacobite and take it back home". So unlikely to be any net loss to the area and quite likely to be a net gain.

Or maybe this years holidays are booked so too late to cancel.

 

For me, a return visit to Knysna, South Africa has been postponed a decade now, i thought one day steam may return there, but alas it hasn’t returned and neither have I.

 

The last train has gone..

 

i’m sure its business as usual, but the cherry on top of the cake is not.

 

but just like Scotland, South Africa has much else to offer, just less in Knysna, a fishing harbour much like Mallaig.

 

(spot the elephant).

 

someday…

https://www.outeniquachootjoe.com

 

The sleeping beast will reawaken.

 

Until then Tourism changed, Knysna initially lost to a diesel operation to Mossel Bay… that in turn failed because of falling demand… the tourists slowly evaporated away from the train… simply because it was the focal point in the vicinity, as part of a wider trip across the garden route for tourists… Knysna lost 115k rail tourists.. pretty much same as claimed by the Jacobite.

 

As best as I can see, Knysna is still one of SAs top tourist spots but 2007 stats suggest people stayed longer than a few days, than 2017 which suggest 1-2 days. its not all down to the train but clearly tourism trends changed., most likely in favour of safari park accommodation, which might explain why the train hasn't returned.

 

Coming back here

Will Scotland benefit ? Perhaps one of the foreign owned Scotch whisky distilleries might ?

 

https://whisky1.wordpress.com/distillery-owners-guide-who-belongs-to-whom/

 

 

Edited April 2 by adb968008

[2E Sub Shed]

2 hours ago, Stevebr said:

 There also seems a major uptake in interest on the service trains which are nearing capacity.  I suspect there is a negative impact on businesses in Mallaig though. 

Some years ago we traveled on West Highland, the option to use the "Jacobite" was available, however we used the service train, same views, through larger cleaner windows (on that day), and get photos of a steam engine as well.  (do the drivers still clean the service train windows at Fort William ?).

[Ian Hargrave]

39 minutes ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

Some years ago we traveled on West Highland, the option to use the "Jacobite" was available, however we used the service train, same views, through larger cleaner windows (on that day), and get photos of a steam engine as well.  (do the drivers still clean the service train windows at Fort William ?).

 

I have done the return trip from FW to Mallaig twice. Once on the Jacobite and latterly by Scotrail 2 X 156 .And for  the scenic effect of the line which is really why we do the trip,the diesel unit scores over  WCRC Mk 1’s. On the day I last did the trip,it was a return from Rannoch Station which added extra outstanding landscape and gorge delights with panoramic views of the Nevis range from every perspective. The service was well patronised and it seemed that on arrival in Mallaig most passengers headed straight for the many eating places and pubs in the town. In contrast on that day…early September 2021….The Jacobite appeared to be comparatively under patronised. Just a snap experience I know but at the time I felt it was revealing.  The return Glasgow Scotrail service was similarly well occupied and on a  sunny early evening  more delights unfolded. I think the local economy is resilient enough to absorb this setback. 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

For me, a return visit to Knysna, South Africa has been postponed a decade now, i thought one day steam may return there, but alas it hasn’t returned and neither have I.

Sadly I suspect you will have a long wait. The line closed following a landslide and there is, so far, neither the money nor the appetite (at least from Transnet) is there to reinstate it. Private operators have been approached, but the view of the local guide when I visited in 2019 was that a potent blend of corruption and incompetence meant he did not expect to see trains running along the route again. I'd love for him to be wrong...but suspect he isn't...

Edited April 2 by Claude_Dreyfus

[adb968008]

Ive not done ftw -Mallaig for years.

 

First time was 673 Maude in 1984, then with 2005 in c1985-6

My final time was 44871 in 1989.

I’ll have done it with class 26/7 and 37 at some point.

 

shamelessly breaking all the rules…

 

 

i’d end up in a Scottish jail doing porridge if doing this today.

 

 

 

cant recall the date, sixbellsdoesnt list it, but this is how we got up there…

 

miserable weather, wasnt yet a teenager, cheap 110 camera.

Edited April 2 by adb968008

[Stevebr]

Knysna may be gone but there is a new service steam hauled from Cape Town to Simonstown. 3 hours there 3 hours walk around and 3 hours back. First trip a couple if weeks ago.

[johnofwessex]

I wonder if either an extra 156 on the Scotrail services between FW & Mallaig or an extra daily service could be organised

[Ian Hargrave]

8 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

I wonder if either an extra 156 on the Scotrail services between FW & Mallaig or an extra daily service could be organised

Which is dependent on availability of such stock and platform length. 

[Legend]

The Barrhead line formerly operated by 156s went over to electric in December . East Kilbride trains are currently 4 car only because of platform alterations - so I’m hoping 156s are available . To be honest my idea of a heritage train is compartments so the Jacobite with its SOs wouldn’t have done much for me ( neither will mk 2 or 3s unless done to Pullman standard) so I’d be happy with extra Scotrail services in WCRC paths . 

[StuAllen]

TBH I don’t think most passengers on the Jacobite travel on the line because it’s the West Highland Line and the spectacular views - they aren’t enthusiasts, they travel on it because of the Harry Potter connection, they want steam and coaches that look similar to those in the film (don’t forget in some of the scenes they were on open carriages it wasn’t all corridor stock.

 

I was booked on the Jacobite a couple of years ago but the journey was cancelled due to a strike, and didn’t we have time during the few days we stayed at Fort William to do the journey using Scotrail instead due to other planned activities.

 

A few pictures from our trip to Glenfinnan Viaduct the day after the strike day shows that people only care about steam.

 

The Jacobite has 7 full coaches, there were 100s of people on the hillside to take photos, but none waited around for the pair of 156’s the arrived not long after - barely half full.  There were 4 Jacobites services cancelled that week so if people wanted to travel the line then I would have expected to see the Scotrail service to have been full.